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How do the believers in Christ differ from Israel?


Retrobyter

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No name was given without purpose and God`s purpose at that, and every name had a meaning, and in that meaning is teaching for us, I believe. Here are a couple of examples, Reuben and Judah.

 

Reuben

`So Leah conceived again and bore a son, and called his name Reuben; (see a son). ` (Gen. 29: 32)

 

Jacob last words to Reuben.

`Reuben, you are my first-born, my might and the beginning of my strength,...` (Gen. 49: 3)

E. Bendor Samuel, quoting from the Ancient Targum, relates that this blessing is thus paraphrased:

`Reuben, my first-born art thou, my strength, and the beginning of my sorrow. To thee, my son Reuben, would it have pertained to receive three portions above thy brothers,

the priesthood, birthright, and kingdom, but because thou hast sinned,

- the birthright is given to Joseph,

- the kingdom to Judah, and the

- High Priesthood to Levi.”

 

Clearly we can see the connection there with our precious Lord Jesus Christ.

He is the first-born.

He will receive the birthright.

He will receive the kingdom.

He is the High Priest.

 

 

 

 

Judah

`And she conceived again and bore a son, and said, “Now I will praise the Lord.” Therefore she called his name Judah.` (Praise) (Gen. 29: 35)

 

Y huwdah - Judah.

From yadah - to hold out the hand.

From yad - power and dominion.

 

Jacob`s last words to Judah.

`Judah, you are he whom your brothers shall praise; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father`s children shall bow down before you.

 

Judah is a lion`s whelp; from the prey, my son, you have gone up. He bows down, he lies down as a lion; and as a lion, who shall rouse him?

 

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a law-giver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and unto him shall be the obedience of the people. Binding his donkey to the vine, and his donkey`s colt to the choice vine.

 

He washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes. His eyes are darker than wine, and his teeth whiter than milk.` (Gen. 49: 8 - 12)

 

So many comparisons to our Lord. Here are a few -

-Lion of the tribe of Judah. (Rev. 5: 5)

-the sceptre, regal and legal power. (Rev. 5: 7)

-clothing in the blood of grapes. (Isa. 63: 3)

 

 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

No name was given without purpose and God`s purpose at that, and every name had a meaning, and in that meaning is teaching for us, I believe. Here are a couple of examples, Reuben and Judah.

 

Reuben

`So Leah conceived again and bore a son, and called his name Reuben; (see a son). ` (Gen. 29: 32)

 

Jacob last words to Reuben.

`Reuben, you are my first-born, my might and the beginning of my strength,...` (Gen. 49: 3)

E. Bendor Samuel, quoting from the Ancient Targum, relates that this blessing is thus paraphrased:

`Reuben, my first-born art thou, my strength, and the beginning of my sorrow. To thee, my son Reuben, would it have pertained to receive three portions above thy brothers,

the priesthood, birthright, and kingdom, but because thou hast sinned,

- the birthright is given to Joseph,

- the kingdom to Judah, and the

- High Priesthood to Levi.”

 

Clearly we can see the connection there with our precious Lord Jesus Christ.

He is the first-born.

He will receive the birthright.

He will receive the kingdom.

He is the High Priest.

 

 

 

 

Judah

`And she conceived again and bore a son, and said, “Now I will praise the Lord.” Therefore she called his name Judah.` (Praise) (Gen. 29: 35)

 

Y huwdah - Judah.

From yadah - to hold out the hand.

From yad - power and dominion.

 

Jacob`s last words to Judah.

`Judah, you are he whom your brothers shall praise; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father`s children shall bow down before you.

 

Judah is a lion`s whelp; from the prey, my son, you have gone up. He bows down, he lies down as a lion; and as a lion, who shall rouse him?

 

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a law-giver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and unto him shall be the obedience of the people. Binding his donkey to the vine, and his donkey`s colt to the choice vine.

 

He washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes. His eyes are darker than wine, and his teeth whiter than milk.` (Gen. 49: 8 - 12)

 

So many comparisons to our Lord. Here are a few -

-Lion of the tribe of Judah. (Rev. 5: 5)

-the sceptre, regal and legal power. (Rev. 5: 7)

-clothing in the blood of grapes. (Isa. 63: 3)

Shalom, Marilyn.

There you go again! "Yaad" simply means "hand." Anything else it MIGHT mean is learned from that word's CONTEXT and the PHRASE used within that context that contains the word "hand!"

OT:3027 yaad (yawd); a primitive word; a hand (the open one [indicating power, means, direction, etc.], in distinction from OT:3709, the closed one); used (as noun, adverb, etc.) in a great variety of applications, both literally and figuratively, both proximate and remote [as follows]:

KJV - (+be) able,  about,  armholes, at, axletree, because of, beside, border,  bounty,  broad, [broken-] handed,  by, charge, coast,  consecrate,  creditor, custody, debt, dominion,  enough,  fellowship, force,  from, hand [-staves, -y work],  he, himself,  in, labour,  large, ledge, [left-] handed, means,  mine, ministry, near,  of,  order, ordinance,  our, parts, pain, power,  presumptuously, service, side, sore, state, stay, draw with strength, stroke,  swear, terror,  thee,  by them,  themselves,  thine own,  thou, through,  throwing,  thumb, times,  to,  under,  us,  wait on, [way-] side, where,  wide,  with (him, me, you), work,  yield,  yourselves.

OT:3709 kaf (kaf); from OT:3721; the hollow hand or palm (so of the paw of an animal, of the sole, and even of the bowl of a dish or sling, the handle of a bolt, the leaves of a palm-tree); figuratively, power:

KJV - branch,  foot, hand ([-ful], -dle, [-led]), hollow, middle, palm, paw, power, sole, spoon.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Look at all the ways it was used in the translation of the KJV!

You cannot just say it means "power and dominion!"

I'm not doubting that there are connections, but those connections are made through PROPHECY, not by the definition of the name!

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15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

I'm not doubting that there are connections, but those connections are made through PROPHECY, not by the definition of the name!

So Retro,

Let me put my references more accurately -

the tribes. Num. 10: 14 – 27,

the meanings. Gen. 29: 32,  30: 1 – 24,  35: 18 

Jacob`s last words. Gen. 49: 1 - 28.

Marilyn.

 

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On 7/26/2017 at 8:22 PM, Marilyn C said:

So Retro,

Let me put my references more accurately -

the tribes. Num. 10: 14 – 27,

the meanings. Gen. 29: 32-35,  30: 1 – 24,  35: 18 

Jacob`s last words. Gen. 49: 1 - 28.

Marilyn.

Shabbat shalom, Marilyn.

Well, "Jacob's last words" ARE prophecy! He, Israel, said,

Genesis 49:1-2

49:1 Then Ya‘akov called for his sons and said,

“Gather yourselves together, and I will tell you
what will happen to you in the acharit-hayamim [the-end-of-days].

2 Assemble yourselves and listen, sons of Ya‘akov;
pay attention to Isra’el your father. 
CJB

Genesis 49:1-2
1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
2 Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father.
KJV

So, listen to his "last words" from his sons' perspective:

Genesis 49:3-4
3 “Re’uven, you are my firstborn,
my strength, the firstfruits of my manhood. 
4 Though superior in vigor and power
you are unstable as water, so your superiority will end,
because you climbed into your father’s bed
and defiled it — he climbed onto my concubine’s [Bilhah's] couch! (Gen. 35:22)
CJB

Genesis 49:5-7
5 “Shim‘on and Levi are brothers,
related by weapons of violence. 
6 Let me not enter their council,
let my honor not be connected with their people;
for in their anger they killed men,
and at their whim they maimed cattle. 
7 Cursed be their anger, for it has been fierce;
their fury, for it has been cruel. (Gen. 34:1-31)
I will divide them in Ya‘akov
and scatter them in Isra’el.
"
CJB

Genesis 49:8-12
8 “Y’hudah, your brothers will acknowledge you,
your hand will be on the neck of your enemies,
your father’s sons will bow down before you. 

9 Y’hudah is a lion’s cub;
my son, you stand over the prey.
He crouches down and stretches like a lion;
like a lioness, who dares to provoke him? 
10 The scepter will not pass from Y’hudah,
nor the ruler’s staff from between his legs,
until he comes to whom [obedience] belongs; 
and it is he whom the peoples will obey. 

11 Tying his donkey to the vine,
his donkey’s colt to the choice grapevine,
he washes his clothes in wine,
his robes in the blood of grapes.
 
12 His eyes will be darker than wine,
his teeth whiter than milk.
"
CJB

Genesis 49:13
13 “Z’vulun will live at the seashore,
with ships anchoring along his coast
and his border at Tzidon (Zidon).
"
CJB

Genesis 49:14-15
14 “Yissakhar is a strong donkey
lying down in the sheep sheds. 
15 On seeing how good is settled life
and how pleasant the country,

he will bend his back to the burden,
and submit to forced labor.

CJB

Genesis 49:16-18
16 “Dan will judge his people
as one of the tribes of Isra’el. 

17 Dan will be a viper on the road,
a horned snake in the path
that bites the horse’s heels
so its rider falls off backward.
 
18 I wait for your deliverance, Adonai.
CJB

Genesis 49:19
19 “Gad [troop]— a troop will troop on him,
but he will troop on their heel. 

CJB

Genesis 49:20
20 “Asher’s food is rich —
he will provide food fit for a king
CJB

Genesis 49:21
21 “Naftali is a doe set free
that bears beautiful fawns. 
CJB

Genesis 49:22-26
22 “Yosef is a fruitful plant,
a fruitful plant by a spring,
with branches climbing over the wall. 
23 The archers attacked him fiercely,
shooting at him and pressing him hard; 
24 but his bow remained taut;
and his arms were made nimble
by the hands of the Mighty One of Ya‘akov,
from there, from the Shepherd, the Stone of Isra’el, 
25 by the God of your father, who will help you,
by El Shaddai, who will bless you
with blessings from heaven above,
blessings from the deep, lying below,
blessings from the breasts and the womb. 

26 The blessings of your father are more powerful
than the blessings of my parents, 
extending to the farthest of the everlasting hills;
they will be on the head of Yosef,
on the brow of the prince among his brothers
."
CJB

Genesis 49:26-27
27 “Binyamin is a ravenous wolf,
in the morning devouring the prey,
in the evening still dividing the spoil
.” 
CJB

Then, we still have additional blessings found in Genesis 48:

Genesis 48:8-22
8 Then Isra’el noticed Yosef’s sons and asked, “Whose are these?” 9 Yosef answered his father, “They are my sons, whom God has given me here.” Ya‘akov replied, “I want you to bring them here to me, so that I can bless them.” (ii)  10 Now Isra’el’s eyes were dim with age, so that he could not see. Yosef brought his sons near to him, and he kissed them and embraced them. 11 Isra’el said to Yosef, “I never expected to see even you again, but God has allowed me to see your children too!” 12 Yosef brought them out from between his legs and prostrated himself on the ground. 13 Then Yosef took them both, Efrayim in his right hand toward Isra’el’s left hand and M’nasheh in his left hand toward Isra’el’s right hand, and brought them near to him. 14 But Isra’el put out his right hand and laid it on the head of the younger one, Efrayim, and put his left hand on the head of M’nasheh — he intentionally crossed his hands, even though M’nasheh was the firstborn. 15 Then he blessed Yosef: “The God in whose presence my fathers Avraham and Yitz’chak lived, the God who has been my own shepherd all my life long to this day, 16 the angel who has rescued me from all harm, bless these boys. May they remember who I am and what I stand for, and likewise my fathers Avraham and Yitz’chak, who they were and what they stood for. And may they grow into teeming multitudes on the earth.”

17 When Yosef saw that his father was laying his right hand on Efrayim’s head, it displeased him, and he lifted up his father’s hand to remove it from Efrayim’s head and place it instead on M’nasheh’s head. 18 Yosef said to his father, “Don’t do it that way, my father; for this one is the firstborn. Put your right hand on his head.” 19 But his father refused and said, “I know that, my son, I know it. He too will become a people, and he too will be great; nevertheless his younger brother will be greater than he, and his descendants will grow into many nations.” 20 Then he added this blessing on them that day: “Isra’el will speak of you in their own blessings by saying, ‘May God make you like Efrayim and M’nasheh.’” Thus he put Efrayim ahead of M’nasheh. 

21 Isra’el then said to Yosef, “You see that I am dying, but God will be with you and will bring you back to the land of your ancestors. 22 Moreover, I am giving to you a sh’khem [shoulder, ridge, share, city of Sh’khem] more than to your brothers; I captured it from the Emori with my sword and bow.” 
CJB

These are all PROPHECIES about the twelve + two tribes. You don't need to go making up things out of the meaning of their names. Just trust God to have recorded what was important.

 

Edited by Retrobyter
because it was finished on Shabbat
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1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Marilyn.

Well, "Jacob's last words" ARE prophecy! He, Israel, said,

These are all PROPHECIES about the twelve + two tribes. You don't need to go making up things out of the meaning of their names. Just trust God to have recorded what was important.

 

Hi Retro,

My, ...you have done some good work there bro. Thank you for writing all the details from scripture, as they are very important as we well know. And yes I agree that Jacob`s last words are prophetic, and I also could have included Moses` prophetic words too - Deut. 33.

Now I didn`t make up anything regarding the 12 tribes (& 2) I just needed to enlarge my reference section. So thank you for highlighting that need.

regards, Marilyn.

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On 6/28/2017 at 8:25 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom (Peace) to all.

Marilyn had said (to wingnut-) in "ERRORS of the POST TRIB. view" under Prophecy/Eschatology:

Her short outline provides the information that she divides the children of Israel into two groups: Those who receive the promises given to Israel and those who are NOT included in Israel's inheritance. I believe this division to be rather forced and extremely insulting. Here's why: Notice the ones who are NOT included in Israel's inheritance consist of "Rebellious Israeli people who disobey God" and "Israeli people who come into the Body of Christ." This almost makes the two subcategories on a comparative level. Ironically, many JEWS feel they are synonymous, but should WE feel that way, too? I don't think so.

Second, since this is an outline of JUST the children of Israel, she is implicitly making a distinction between the children of Israel and those who are NOT children of Israel, frequently referred to as "Gentiles," suggesting that they have different prospects.

She continued in a separate post:

(bold-facing mine)

Taking her advice, I've started this topic. This topic gets into prophecy and eschatology, but it's deeper than that. So, I decided to open this thread in  Doctrinal Questions. If the Moderator feels it would be better placed somewhere else, please feel free to move it.

I don't disagree with her basic conclusion that the "elect" refers to Israel (as the "chosen seed") especially in Matthew 24, but I must disagree with the highlighted portion. She concludes that Israel will have the rulership on earth over the nations, and that those who are born again shall have the rulership over the universe. ("Over the UNIVERSE?" That's a HUGE dominion and is probably MUCH greater than we, all those born again, could handle! And, we would be spread very thinly over a VERY GREAT area!)

While there is a difference between Gentiles and Israel outside of the Messiah Yeshua` (outside of Christ Jesus), there is NO difference between the two groups WITHIN the Messiah. Essentially, that makes THREE groups of people:

1. The Gentiles outside the Messiah,
2. the children of Israel outside the Messiah, and
3. believers (children of Israel and Gentiles) within the Messiah.

Paul describes the last group in Ephesians:

Ephesians 2:11-22
11 Wherefore remember, that ye (the Gentile Ephesians to whom Paul was writing) being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ (outside of the Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God (outside of God) in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeshua`) ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh (close) by the blood of Christ (the blood of the Messiah).
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (two) one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (the Gentile Ephesians), and to them that were nigh (the children of Israel).
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye (the Gentile Ephesians to whom Paul was writing) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (the holy ones; that is, the ones consecrated for God), and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself (Yeshua` the Messiah Himself)  being the chief corner stone (capstone);
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV

The point I'm trying to make is this: When we are made "one new man," we are not putting the Jews (or more generally, the children of Israel) "into the Church," but rather God is accepting the Gentiles into the household of God, Yeshua`s Israel - Yeshua`s Kingdom to come, making them fellowcitizens WITH the saints, the children of Israel, who were consecrated by God for Himself.

The "Church," or rather the "churches," are simply groups of people that gather together for the same purpose. The Greek word, ekkleesia, was also used for the town council of Ephesus (interesting coincidence?) in Acts 19, particularly verses 32, 39, and 41. In the KJV, the word chosen to translate this simply called it an "assembly" instead of a "church."

However, ekkleesia is also found in Stephen's sermon in Acts 7:

Acts 7:2-41
2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia (between rivers), before he dwelt in Charran,
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he (God) promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years.
7 And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.
8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.
9 And the patriarchs, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him,
10 And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house.
11 Now there came a dearth (famine) over all the land of Egypt and Chanaan, and great affliction: and our fathers found no sustenance.
12 But when Jacob heard that there was corn in Egypt, he sent out our fathers first.
13 And at the second time Joseph was made known to his brethren; and Joseph's kindred was made known unto Pharaoh.
14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls.
15 So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers,
16 And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem.
17 But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt,
18 Till another king arose, which knew not Joseph.
19 The same dealt subtilly with our kindred, and evil entreated our fathers, so that they cast out their young children, to the end they might not live.
20 In which time Moses was born, and was exceeding fair, and nourished up in his father's house three months:
21 And when he was cast out, Pharaoh's daughter took him up, and nourished him for her own son.
22 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.
23 And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel.
24 And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended him, and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian:
25 For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not.
26 And the next day he shewed himself unto them as they strove, and would have set them at one again, saying, Sirs, ye are brethren; why do ye wrong one to another?
27 But he that did his neighbour wrong thrust him away, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge over us?
28 Wilt thou kill me, as thou diddest the Egyptian yesterday?
29 Then fled Moses at this saying, and was a stranger in the land of Madian, where he begat two sons.
30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,
32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.
33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.
34 I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt.
35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church (Greek: ekkleesia) in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.
KJV

Thus, the FIRST "church" was the congregation of the children of Israel that surrounded Mount Sinai when Moses received the "lively oracles" or the "living words" of God to pass on to us.

Thus, going back to Ephesians 2 above, the Gentiles who are grafted into the Olive Tree (Romans 11) are "no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (the holy ones; that is, the ones consecrated for God), and of the household of God." Thus, we who are Gentiles are no longer "aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God (outside of God) in the world!"

There was a song I used to sing as a kid, "Every Promise in the Book is Mine."  Its words are...

Every promise in the Book is mine,
every chapter, every verse, every line,
all the blessings of His love divine;
every promise in the Book is mine.

Later, I used to believe that this was not true, that there were some promises made to Israel that didn't belong to me as a Gentile.

Now, I've changed my mind again! As a Gentile who is accepted into the household of God and is now a citizen of Israel, a recipient of the covenants of promise, the promises ARE mine! Through the blood of the Messiah Yeshua`, I am also a member of the tribe of Y'hudah as Yeshua` is! (You are, too.)

The bottom line is this: Even believers in the Messiah have a part in the Millennial Kingdom of God here on this earth. We are PART of those who live and reign with Him, and that's not off in "heaven" somewhere; it's right here on this earth before the Millennium ends with the Great White Throne Judgment.

When Yeshua` gave His parable (Luke 19:11-28), even we who are the Gentiles who are grafted into His Olive Tree (Romans 11:16-25), are recipients of these evaluations and rewards. 

Luke 19:11-28
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore,
 A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But 
those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (Yeshua` HIMSELF said this! Does this sound out of character for Him? It's NOT! These are HIS words!)
28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
KJV

So, I find NO difference between the two. To the contrary, I believe that we ALL will participate in the Messiah's Kingdom right here on this earth during the Millennium.

Amen.......the true commonwealth of Israel is the Israel of God, it is not a physical nation per se.........but a kingdom received only by faith which was first revealed to Israel.......the patriarchs and Old Testament saints were in faith.  We are grafted into the faith of the patriarchs, not an unbelieving physical nation called Israel.....since God would never have His flock to be unequally yoked with unbelievers.  However the Lord is going to save all of Israel in the end at His coming, He will reveal Himself to all......just because He is God and He CHOOSES and has CHOSEN Israel to come into the Israel of God/kingdom of God and has promised to do it.  Israel is "special" only in the sense that she has suffered much for being called and chosen of God, to be the ensample to the church and by her being blinded for the gospel to come to the whole world.  And the Lord is not unjust and will comfort, comfort her in the end, ie, by giving her the Comforter.  The most we can do as believers is to keep holding up the light of the gospel to Israel and to succour her in her hour of need......... while maintaining our separateness from all the unbelieving world, including Israel.  We are not to be friends with the world (ie yoked with them).......but to be ambassadors of the gospel and walking in a kingdom that is not of this world.

We have to look at the scriptures in simplicity with the Help of the Holy Spirit, ie, by faith, with His illumination........I have been seeing lately, only by the grace of the Lord, that when we study it with the intellectual (carnal) mind it always produces mixture and confusion and complication.....error.

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On 6/28/2017 at 9:51 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

That`s great you have started this topic on its own thread, (thank you). Now we can look at it, as you say, in a deeper way, (than just connected to post-trib.)

Now....did you gift yourself with all the abilities you have? or with a body that is so wonderful? of course not. So it is not beyond God to enable us to be like Christ, wisdom, righteousness, knowledge, etc and able to go through dimensions in our new bodies. To rule with Christ upon His throne, (authority) over all, will be a growing responsibility - `the increase of His government knows no end...` (Isa. 9: 7)

Marilyn.

 

Sister, I'm coming late into this thread.......but God has only given dominion of the earth to man........and I believe we can leave the vast universe to Him.  I only know this because of His word.....when He created man He gave him dominion over the earth, no mention of ruling other planets and stars.......and because of this where it is explicitly stated:

Psalm 115:16

The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD’s; But the earth He has given to the children of men.

God lives outside of both time and space........and this physical earth is waxing old like a garment which the Lord will change......the increase of His government could be beyond what we can think or imagine, I know it's beyond me.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

Sister, I'm coming late into this thread.......but God has only given dominion of the earth to man........and I believe we can leave the vast universe to Him.  I only know this because of His word.....when He created man He gave him dominion over the earth, no mention of ruling other planets and stars.......and because of this where it is explicitly stated:

Psalm 115:16

The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD’s; But the earth He has given to the children of men.

God lives outside of both time and space........and this physical earth is waxing old like a garment which the Lord will change......the increase of His government could be beyond what we can think or imagine, I know it's beyond me.

 

 

Hi Heleadethme,

That`s fine, we can also discuss together. I agree with you and the scripture, which we all should. Notice the phrase `the children of men.` Now we, as believers, born again by the Spirit, were `children of men,` but remember we have been adopted by God the Father and are now His children. Truly amazing. And -

`...we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.`` (2 Cor. 5: 1 - 3)

regards, Marilyn,

 

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59 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Heleadethme,

That`s fine, we can also discuss together. I agree with you and the scripture, which we all should. Notice the phrase `the children of men.` Now we, as believers, born again by the Spirit, were `children of men,` but remember we have been adopted by God the Father and are now His children. Truly amazing. And -

`...we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.`` (2 Cor. 5: 1 - 3)

regards, Marilyn,

 

Sister, I don't believe we have to comb through every word with a fine tooth comb, but just look at the passage simply with the Help of His Spirit......God didn't give us His word to trick us like trick questions ;) so we can relax a little bit and just look to Him.  Since Jesus is both Son of God and Son of Man, we can also be called children of men even while we are children of God.  Jesus is even coming back as Son of Man in His glorified body.  Unless there is scripture that says we will rule the whole universe, maybe I'm just not aware of it.  Blessings..

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1 hour ago, Heleadethme said:

Sister, I don't believe we have to comb through every word with a fine tooth comb, but just look at the passage simply with the Help of His Spirit......God didn't give us His word to trick us like trick questions ;) so we can relax a little bit and just look to Him.  Since Jesus is both Son of God and Son of Man, we can also be called children of men even while we are children of God.  Jesus is even coming back as Son of Man in His glorified body.  Unless there is scripture that says we will rule the whole universe, maybe I'm just not aware of it.  Blessings..

Hi Heleadethme,

Now we know from the Holy Spirit through Peter that NO scripture is to be taken on its own, but should be understood in relation to the whole of God`s word.

`No prophecy of Scripture is of any private (on its own) interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.` (2 Peter 1:20)

This gives us great comfort as it is not up to us to interpret God`s word He can do that just fine Himself. So we can `relax` as you say for His whole word comes together very well. 

BTW Revelation 3: 21 is good to look at -

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne as I overcame & sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

Wondrous truths there, sis,

regards, Marilyn.

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