How do the believers in Christ differ from Israel?

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

Again, what do the Scriptures say?

Revelation 21:9-21
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,...

Please note that the messenger showed John the CITY and called it "the bride, the Lamb's wife." That means that the city is the bride (c --> b) ; it does NOT mean that the bride is the city (b -/-> c)! They are not equal (not b = c, but b =/= c); the CITY has the apellation. This is NOT talking about "the church."

 

Hi Retro,

I agree with you that the city is not the church.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

.

[Retrobyter]

On 7/17/2017 at 9:01 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

I agree that the New Earth will be this earth made new. However....the New Jerusalem is made of heavenly `substance.` And it will reside in the lower heavens near the earth and bring light to it as the earth revolves. (Heb. 12: 22  &  Rev. 21: 2 & 23)

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

I also needed to add that the New Jerusalem will NOT "reside in the lower heavens near the earth." IF it's made of "heavenly 'substance,'" then that substance needs to be affected by gravity. Why? It's because this earth is moving on so many levels:

First, it is rotating at the speed of 24,902 miles / 24 hours = 1,037.58333 miles per hour (= approximately 1,670 km per hour) at the equator.

Second, the earth is revolving about the sun at the speed of (2 x pi x 93,000,000 miles / year) x (1 year / 365.2422 days) x (1 day / 24 hours) = 584,336,234 miles per (365.2422 x 24) hour = 66,660.8159 miles per hour (= approximately 107,280 km per hour).

Third, the sun itself with all the planets in the solar system is hurtling through space, presumably revolving about the center of the Milky Way Galaxy (our local galaxy).

Furthermore, because of the red-shift and blue-shift effects in the spectrums of other galaxies, apparently the galaxies are also moving away from each other at tremendous speeds.

Combining all these velocities, the New Jerusalem has to be able to "keep up" with the earth in some way. The easiest way is to allow the earth's gravitational pull to pull the New Jerusalem along.

Therefore, the ONLY way for the New Jerusalem to "reside in the lower heavens near the earth," is for the New Jerusalem to be IN ORBIT around the New Earth.

When an object is shot out of a cannon, for instance, it follows a parabolic curve, reaching a maximum height, and then descending just as fast as it rose into the air until it hits the ground at a distance twice as far as the distance from the cannon to the point below the maximum height. The faster the speed of the object, the farther the distance it travels before it reaches the ground. However, notice that there is a MAXIMUM distance (24,902 miles) before the object returns all the way to the cannon. It it goes still faster, it will go beyond the cannon a SECOND time before landing on the ground. Eventually, there is a speed at which the object fails to return to the ground. Technically, it keeps MISSING the earth in its attempt to fall back to the earth! That is the velocity at which the object has reached "orbit."

The New Jerusalem would have to be traveling at a height and speed that allows it to be continually falling to the earth, but equally continually missing the earth. There is an orbit in which the height/speed ratio matches the rotation of the earth. This orbit is called a "geosynchronous orbit" and will SEEM to be practically stationary above a point on the face of the earth; however, no orbit is perfect and the object will seem to "wobble" above that point on the earth.

To keep each of the four sides pointing to the four compass directions so that three gates can be continually on the east, three gates continually on the north, three gates continually on the west, and three gates continually on the south, thrusters would have to be continually working to make the corrections necessary in the face of the orbital wobble.

How much simpler would it be just to see that the city LANDS on the New Earth!

Also, I should add that the New Jerusalem doesn't have to give light to the whole earth. The sun and moon shall continue to exist and provide light, as well. If you need them, there are PLENTY of biblical proofs to that statement, but I'm out of time tonight.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Retrobyter
to correct a word and to add a P.S.

[Marilyn C]

19 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

 

Hi Retro,

You certainly come up with lots of interesting material there bro. Still, as I see it, the earth will revolve around the New Jerusalem, and NOT the other way around. Which is the rulership position? Which brings light to all the earth?

Blessings, Marilyn.

[Retrobyter]

On 7/18/2017 at 2:37 AM, Sister said:

Retro

These words spoken from your mouth is what you have sown in this field.  Just remember that.  You declared this during your walk.

So everything God made was good right!

...but after Adam sinned;

Genesis 3:17   And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Genesis 3:18   Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Genesis 3:19   In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

If the ground is now cursed after Adam sinned, and now he has to eat of the ground all the days of his life,....and eat the herbs, and bread, then what was he eating before he sinned?

Don't you get curious? 

And please don't give me any Greek or Hebrew, we don't need that to understand this story.

Shalom, Sister.

Actually, I think you still do. The "herbs" of the field, are the PLANTS of the field, that is, domesticated vegetables. The focus is not on "herb" but on "field." The "field," the Hebrew word is "hasaadeh" meaning "the flat, spread-out ground." The POINT was that now the man was going to have to WORK for his food. "In the sweat of your brow!"

The word "bread" is the Hebrew word "lechem," and I hesitate to tell you this because I don't want you spinning off on this one fact as something else to "spiritualize," but it's the same word that is included in the name "Beit-lechem" or "Bethlehem," which means "House of bread."

The man was now going to be required to till the hard ground, plant the seeds at the right time, weed the garden (of those thorns and thistles), water the garden if it doesn't rain enough, keep pests off the plants, harvest the vegetables at the right time, and prepare the field for the next season. FARMING was invented!

What was he eating before he had sinned? He was eating fruits that were abundant and grew effortlessly in the garden that God had planted eastward in Eden:

Genesis 2:8-10
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
KJV

Don't I get curious? Of course I do! BUT, I don't go manufacturing stories, pulling unrelated Scripture verses from all over the Bible (WITHOUT any authority to do so), and piece together a collage of thoughts, like a patchwork quilt, to "explain" some "spiritual" meaning!

If the context of the verse that made me curious doesn't have an answer, I go back to the original languages and use an Englishman's Concordance and look up ALL the places where the key words in that context are found in the Scriptures to see if there is another location that has the same topic as well as the same words. It's possible that another passage of Scripture explains what I was curious about. I NEVER use an English-based Concordance of the Bible alone. The Hebrew language and the Greek language and the English language have no 1-to-1 function of translation between any two of the three! 

A single word, like "love" can mean several things, everything from the "love" that Amnon had for Tamar, his half-sister, in 2 Sam. 13, to the "love" that Peter had for Yeshua` in John 21, to the "love" that God has for people in John 3! Furthermore, the same Hebrew word, like checed, can be interpreted as several different English words, depending on the context:

KJV - favour, good deed (-liness, -ness), kindly, (loving-) kindness, merciful (kindness), mercy, pity, reproach, wicked thing.

The same is true for Greek words.

Look, we know we should take the Scriptures as God's Inspired Word, that's a "given." However, the word "spiritual" is GREATLY misunderstood!

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

You certainly come up with lots of interesting material there bro. Still, as I see it, the earth will revolve around the New Jerusalem, and NOT the other way around. Which is the rulership position? Which brings light to all the earth?

Blessings, Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

The New Jerusalem, even as massive as it will be, is NOT more massive than the earth, let alone the sun. It's not even as big as the moon! Our brother, Sir Isaac Newton, discovered the nature of gravity; specifically, he noticed the relationship between two bodies of mass and the inverse square laws between their forces.

What he noticed when that apple fell from the tree, was that the apple was attracted to the earth. However, he also suspected at that time that the earth was likewise attracted to the apple! We notice the apple attracted to the earth easily because of its size and movement, both related to its small mass. What we do NOT see so easily is the earth's slight movement to the apple, again, because of its HUGE size and microscopic movement, both related to its HUGE mass.

It was once thought that the sun revolved around the earth. We (as human beings) even believed that the sun was smaller than the earth, roughly the same size as the moon. Why? Because we believed that the earth was more important than either the sun or the moon; we believed that God's special interest in the earth made it the center of the known universe (encouraged by Aristotle and Ptolemy). It wasn't until Copernicus suggested otherwise, that is, that the sun was the center of the solar system, that the epicircles of the planets' orbits straightened out into simple orbits around the sun, along with the earth's orbit around the sun.

I see that you're having the same kind of problem with the light from the New Jerusalem. Let me give you some Scriptures that I think will help:

Most know these verses and the interpretation of these verses causes this confusion. People have been subjected to this confusion of many generations, so someone else probably taught you this confusion, and they learned it from others:

Revelation 21:22-26
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
KJV

Revelation 22:5
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV

Notice that these verses say "THE CITY had no need of the sun, neither of the moon" and "there shall be no night THERE." The nations shall walk in the light of it" WHEN "the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it." They do NOT say, there shall be no more night at all! They also do NOT say that the rest of the earth had no need of the sun or the moon!

I've said this before, but the city, standing over 1400 miles high with God's throne probably in the pinnacle, if centered at the coordinates of Old Jerusalem, will provide light from Norway to Zimbabwe! From Morocco to China! And, that's just line-of-sight, direct light! I'm not even talking about the twilight that will occur at greater distances.

We have other verses in Scripture that tell us the sun and moon will still be present and needed for the rest of the globe:

Psalm 72:1-8
1 Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son (heir).
2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.
3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.
4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.
6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.
7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.
8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
KJV

Psalm 72:17-19
17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
18 Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.
KJV

Psalm 89:35-37
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV

Psalm 148:3-6
3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.
4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.
5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.
6 He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass.
KJV

Ecclesiastes 1:4
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
KJV

Exodus 31:16-17
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
KJV

Isaiah 66:22-23
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
KJV

These last verses are talking about the sabbath (or rather, shabbat) and the new moon. It would be rather difficult to observe the shabbat without the sun and the earth's rotation to it, determining the days of the week! It would also be difficult to have a "new moon" without a moon!

Finally, there's one of my favorite verses, Isaiah 24:23:

Isaiah 24:23
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
KJV

In looking up the Hebrew of this verse, the word "confounded" means "mixed up," and the word "ashamed" means "outdone." The translators used personification in the word choice, as though the moon could be confused and the sun abashed, like a human being.

This verse describes how the moon will be mixed up in its phases by reflecting light from the New Jerusalem (God's Light emanating from the Lamb, God's Lightbulb) AND light from the sun. The sun, of course, will be outdone by the One whose face "was as the sun shineth in his strength" and "above the brightness of the sun."

I hope this helps.

[Sister]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Sister.

Actually, I think you still do. The "herbs" of the field, are the PLANTS of the field, that is, domesticated vegetables. The focus is not on "herb" but on "field." The "field," the Hebrew word is "hasaadeh" meaning "the flat, spread-out ground." The POINT was that now the man was going to have to WORK for his food. "In the sweat of your brow!"

The word "bread" is the Hebrew word "lechem," and I hesitate to tell you this because I don't want you spinning off on this one fact as something else to "spiritualize," but it's the same word that is included in the name "Beit-lechem" or "Bethlehem," which means "House of bread."

The man was now going to be required to till the hard ground, plant the seeds at the right time, weed the garden (of those thorns and thistles), water the garden if it doesn't rain enough, keep pests off the plants, harvest the vegetables at the right time, and prepare the field for the next season. FARMING was invented!

What was he eating before he had sinned? He was eating fruits that were abundant and grew effortlessly in the garden that God had planted eastward in Eden:

Genesis 2:8-10
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
KJV

Don't I get curious? Of course I do! BUT, I don't go manufacturing stories, pulling unrelated Scripture verses from all over the Bible (WITHOUT any authority to do so), and piece together a collage of thoughts, like a patchwork quilt, to "explain" some "spiritual" meaning!

If the context of the verse that made me curious doesn't have an answer, I go back to the original languages and use an Englishman's Concordance and look up ALL the places where the key words in that context are found in the Scriptures to see if there is another location that has the same topic as well as the same words. It's possible that another passage of Scripture explains what I was curious about. I NEVER use an English-based Concordance of the Bible alone. The Hebrew language and the Greek language and the English language have no 1-to-1 function of translation between any two of the three! 

A single word, like "love" can mean several things, everything from the "love" that Amnon had for Tamar, his half-sister, in 2 Sam. 13, to the "love" that Peter had for Yeshua` in John 21, to the "love" that God has for people in John 3! Furthermore, the same Hebrew word, like checed, can be interpreted as several different English words, depending on the context:

KJV - favour, good deed (-liness, -ness), kindly, (loving-) kindness, merciful (kindness), mercy, pity, reproach, wicked thing.

The same is true for Greek words.

Look, we know we should take the Scriptures as God's Inspired Word, that's a "given." However, the word "spiritual" is GREATLY misunderstood!

Thank you Retro.

That all makes sense, but Genesis only gives us limited information.  All the details are in the other books that everybody rejects.  I can see it doesn't contract Genesis, but there's no point even arguing. 

But for the record, I am not making this up, nor am I that naive to just accept something that is false, because I have searched and I have found.

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

Notice that these verses say "THE CITY had no need of the sun, neither of the moon" and "there shall be no night THERE." The nations shall walk in the light of it" WHEN "the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it." They do NOT say, there shall be no more night at all! They also do NOT say that the rest of the earth had no need of the sun or the moon!

 

Hi Retro,

I also believe there will still be day and night on earth. So we agree there bro.

Marilyn.

[Retrobyter]

56 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

I also believe there will still be day and night on earth. So we agree there bro.

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

Good! Then, we just have to work on the New Jerusalem's LANDING. There are about 14 clues in Scripture that tell us the City will come all the way down to the New Earth. I'll have to give them to you when I next have time to post. Have a great day!

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn.

Okay, I'm getting an early start and I'll try to list these in separate posts. That way, if you want to explore a particular reason, you can address it independently:

REASONS WHY THE NEW JERUSALEM WILL LAND UPON THE NEW EARTH:

1. The city is said to have "foundations."

The Greek word is "themelioi," which is the plural of "themelios":

NT:2310 themelios (them-el'-ee-os); from a derivative of NT:5087; something put down, i.e. a substruction (of a building, etc.), (literally or figuratively):
KJV - foundation.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Using the Englishman's Concordance, we get the following locations that use this Greek word:

Luke 6:48, 49; 14:29; (foundation of a rock vs. foundation of sand)
Acts 16:26; (foundation of the jail shaken with an earthquake)
Romans 15:20; (Paul always attempted to herald the Messiah where the message was new so he wouldn't be building on another man's foundation)
1 Corinthians 3:10, 11, 12; (Paul said, "I have laid the foundation, and another man builds there on. Foundation is Yeshua` the Messiah. Upon this, one lays gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble. Fire will reveal.")
Ephesians 2:20; (the household of God is built upon the foundation of the prophets and the apostles.)
1 Timothy 6:19; (laying up for themselves a good foundation)
2 Timothy 2:19; (the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal: The Lord knoweth them that are his.)
Hebrews 6:1; (not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works)
Hebrews 11:10; (Abraham looked for a city with hath foundations)
Revelation 21:14; 21:19 (twice) (The New Jerusalem has 12 foundations; they are garnished [put in proper order] with all sorts of precious stones; the first foundation was made of jasper,...)

Even if the other foundations are other levels to the city, one would assume that at least the first foundation would be sunk into the earth. Also, only the first foundations is said to be a foundation, the rest are understood to be foundations, as well.

It's also possible that the city is increased in height in some other ways to produce a city that is "12,000 furlongs" high and that all 12 of the foundations are sunk into the earth.

Either way, it's hard to have "substructions" without at least the first one being set in the ground.