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Retrobyter

How do the believers in Christ differ from Israel?

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2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

Interesting discussion for if we, the believers of the Body of Christ will have different bodies then those of the new earth, then we are not of Israel.

`Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;....` (1 Cor. 15: 50)

So we realise that our blood will not be in our new bodies, we will be energised by a different life force - `The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.` (1 Cor. 15: 45)

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

First, there is a distinction between the time of the Millennium (a future 1000 years in which haSatan is temporarily locked away in the Abyss and our Lord Yeshua` the Messiah, the Anointed TO BE King, begins His reign as Melekh, or King) and the time of the New Earth (the eternal state AFTER the Millennium, when haSatan is FOREVER thrown into the Lake of Fire).

Second, we DO know that there were two different kinds of resurrection in Yeshua`s first advent and before: There was a resurrection in which the recipient would have to die again, such as that of Elezar (or Lazarus), and there was our Lord's Resurrection who was the FIRST to be raised to life never to die again! He was indeed the "Firstfruits" of the Resurrection. (1 Cor. 15:23.)

Third, we don't separate out "our blood" from the phrase "flesh and blood." That phrase refers back to the mere mortal, air-breathing, psuchikos ("natural") body of verse 44.

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47 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

Third, we don't separate out "our blood" from the phrase "flesh and blood." That phrase refers back to the mere mortal, air-breathing, psuchikos ("natural") body of verse 44.

I agree, however I believe there will be no blood in our new glorified bodies.

Marilyn.

 

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On 6/28/2017 at 11:23 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

I agree that the Gentiles are now included into the household of God, fellow citizens with the saints.

`Now therefore ye (the Gentile Ephesians to whom Paul was writing) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (the holy ones; that is, the ones consecrated for God), and of the household of God;..`  (Eph. 2: 19) (as you wrote)

However the assumption that we are now part of Israel has NO biblical foundation. Let`s look at some scriptures.

`These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, they were assured of them, embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For those who say such things, declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a HEAVENLY COUNTRY. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.` (Heb. 11: 13 - 16)

Here we see the OT saints (Israelis and some Gentiles) who believed God for the promise of a heavenly city. We read on further and see that they await their inheritance in the General Assembly.

`But you have come to Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the General Assembly and Church of the first born who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men (& women) made perfect, to Jesus, the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.` (Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

So the OT saints are awaiting their inheritance, the heavenly city, in the General Assembly. Now notice the other group (besides angels) the Church of the first-born. They are also there but distinguished from the OT saints. If we are all in Israel then it would only say - the righteous ones. However God`s word is very specific and says - the Church of the first-born registered in heaven...and the just (righteous men and women) made perfect, (by their righteous works. Heb. 11: 33). The Body of Christ on the other hand is made perfect, righteous through Christ. The OT saints never had that possibility.

Then we read of the two inheritances -

`God having provided something BETTER  for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.` (Heb. 11: 40)

We, the Body of Christ have our inheritance in God`s great kingdom and so do the OT saints (& others) also in a part of God`s great kingdom. The question then is where are the different ones placed that God has specifically delineated in His word.

regards, Marilyn. 

 

Hello Marilyn,

Took me awhile to find this thread, but here I am :)   Curious as to what you make of this passage below in particular.

 

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

 

God bless

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1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

 

Hello Marilyn,

Took me awhile to find this thread, but here I am :)   Curious as to what you make of this passage below in particular.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

God bless

Hi wingnut,

Glad you found us here. Here we see, I believe, Jesus using an illustration of sheep and a sheep fold with Himself as the door of entrance. Those who go into the sheep fold through the door, Jesus, are the children of God while those who try to get in, not through the door, to have abundant life, try other ways. They are thieves, hirelings. Every one who comes to God the Father through Jesus is a child of God. We are `one fold` in that we are His children. Thus we see the Lord speaking of Israel and also the Gentiles.

However the illustration does not go into detail of what inheritances those in the family receive. Different inheritances are told to us throughout God`s word for - Israel, the nations (Gentiles) and the Body of Christ, (Jews & Gentiles).

Hope that explains my thoughts. Marilyn.

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1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

Glad you found us here. Here we see, I believe, Jesus using an illustration of sheep and a sheep fold with Himself as the door of entrance. Those who go into the sheep fold through the door, Jesus, are the children of God while those who try to get in, not through the door, to have abundant life, try other ways. They are thieves, hirelings. Every one who comes to God the Father through Jesus is a child of God. We are `one fold` in that we are His children. Thus we see the Lord speaking of Israel and also the Gentiles.

However the illustration does not go into detail of what inheritances those in the family receive. Different inheritances are told to us throughout God`s word for - Israel, the nations (Gentiles) and the Body of Christ, (Jews & Gentiles).

Hope that explains my thoughts. Marilyn.

 

Thanks Marilyn,

Yes, I understand your thoughts on this.  What I am wondering though, is in considering how a flock of sheep are one single unit, as described in the passage, with one shepherd, doesn't that provide a clear indication that this one flock is together being watched by the one shepherd?  Since we know that we are not one flock as of yet, this would have to be referring to a future time don't you think?

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21 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

I agree, however I believe there will be no blood in our new glorified bodies.

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

That's entirely a possibility. I'm not going to say that you're right or wrong on this, because who but God truly knows? He has not told us in Scripture one way or another. But, if we're going to speculate, we may as well have fun doing so.

For those who have very fair, translucent skin, the blood surging through the capillaries gives the skin its healthy, rosey color. It may not be necessary for a resurrected body to have blood, if the resurrected person gets his or her energy directly from light instead of being supplied by the blood. It's possible, too, that Yeshua` can change His appearance at will, varying the color and the brightness of the light He gives off. IF His natural tendency is to glow brighter than the noonday sun, then He would have to be able to change brightness and appearance and possibly color, as well.

Perhaps, He will be able to simulate what He used to look like as a sabra (Israeli native), by varying the color and brightness until He looks like an Israeli.

And, I just had a thought: Maybe, He simply was already in the upper room ahead of the disciples, but blended in with the walls like a chameleon! All He'd have to do is change His appearance to look like a sabra, and ... voila! He's standing there in their midst!

Speculations are fun, but we must remember not to go hanging our belief system upon it, because a guess or hypothesis has no real proof, nor should it be provided as proof for any other premise.

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2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

That's entirely a possibility. I'm not going to say that you're right or wrong on this, because who but God truly knows? He has not told us in Scripture one way or another. But, if we're going to speculate, we may as well have fun doing so.

For those who have very fair, translucent skin, the blood surging through the capillaries gives the skin its healthy, rosey color. It may not be necessary for a resurrected body to have blood, if the resurrected person gets his or her energy directly from light instead of being supplied by the blood. It's possible, too, that Yeshua` can change His appearance at will, varying the color and the brightness of the light He gives off. IF His natural tendency is to glow brighter than the noonday sun, then He would have to be able to change brightness and appearance and possibly color, as well.

Perhaps, He will be able to simulate what He used to look like as a sabra (Israeli native), by varying the color and brightness until He looks like an Israeli.

And, I just had a thought: Maybe, He simply was already in the upper room ahead of the disciples, but blended in with the walls like a chameleon! All He'd have to do is change His appearance to look like a sabra, and ... voila! He's standing there in their midst!

Speculations are fun, but we must remember not to go hanging our belief system upon it, because a guess or hypothesis has no real proof, nor should it be provided as proof for any other premise.

Hi Retro,

I do appreciate your attitude in this. So I will answer the same. My thoughts are that the Lord went up through the higher levels of the atmosphere & beyond to the Father`s throne, and as we know we would need oxygen to breathe in those higher realms. The blood carries the oxygen and the nutrients throughout the body to live. Thus I do like your thought regarding our energy from light, which we know is an aspect of Christ Himself.

Also thinking that the Lord told the woman at the well of `living water, `everlasting life, and to the disciples, `I have food to eat of which you do not know.` (John 4: 14 & 34) Many things that will come clear when we are changed into His likeness. Oh happy day.....

Blessings, Marilyn.

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4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Thanks Marilyn,

Yes, I understand your thoughts on this.  What I am wondering though, is in considering how a flock of sheep are one single unit, as described in the passage, with one shepherd, doesn't that provide a clear indication that this one flock is together being watched by the one shepherd?  Since we know that we are not one flock as of yet, this would have to be referring to a future time don't you think?

Hi wingnut,

Now all we can gather from that text is `abundant life and how we can receive that. To understand if the `flock` of God is all one breed or of different breeds, (keeping to the illustration) then we would have to look at all of God`s word concerning His flock, His children through Christ.

Just a thought though.....if all God desired was to have the Gentiles to come in with Israel He would not have made the Body of Christ. The Gentiles could always come in with Israel before, remember Ruth, Rahab, etc gentiles who came into Israel. Thus we need to consider `why` God made a new man, a group that specifically are equal, and destined for a greater inheritance than even the OT saints.

Marilyn.

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14 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Now all we can gather from that text is `abundant life and how we can receive that. To understand if the `flock` of God is all one breed or of different breeds, (keeping to the illustration) then we would have to look at all of God`s word concerning His flock, His children through Christ.

 

Hello Marilyn,

As far as scripture is concerned, there is only one qualifier.

 

John 14:6  Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

 

To me, and also to you by my understanding of your post, summarizes what is being spoken of.  Jesus is the good shepherd, and the sheep of that one flock are anyone who accepts Him.  The only separation is between belief and unbelief.

 

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Just a thought though.....if all God desired was to have the Gentiles to come in with Israel He would not have made the Body of Christ.

 

Well, on this we don't see eye to eye, because that is what the plan was.  The Gentiles are grafted in for what reason?  The other thing we differ on it appears, is who the Body of Christ is.  The Body of Christ began with the apostles and the early church, and up until Peter first preached to the Gentiles, they were all Jews.  This is what the Gentiles were grafted into, the Gentiles did not start it.

 

Romans 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for

“Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
    and their words to the ends of the world.”

19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says,

“I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;
    with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”

20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,

“I have been found by those who did not seek me;
    I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”

21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

 

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

The Gentiles could always come in with Israel before, remember Ruth, Rahab, etc gentiles who came into Israel.

 

I agree, going all the way back to the beginning, before there was a nation Israel.  That's the whole point, who is Israel?

 

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Thus we need to consider `why` God made a new man, a group that specifically are equal, and destined for a greater inheritance than even the OT saints.

 

I'm not sure how you can conclude we are equal, and then claim a greater inheritance.  This appears to me to be contrary to what Paul speaks of in Romans, which is in fact by my understanding, a warning against this very line of thought.

 

Romans 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

 

When it comes to the issue of rewards, I think those are covered in the letters to the 7 churches in Revelation, where a different reward is mentioned to each of those churches, which represent an overall reward for believers.  I also think that this is covered in one of the parables Jesus spoke, in regards to those coming at the last hour receiving the same payment as those who had worked all day.

 

Matthew 20:8 And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.’ 9 And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. 10 Now when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius. 11 And on receiving it they grumbled at the master of the house, 12 saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’ 13 But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what belongs to you and go. I choose to give to this last worker as I give to you. 15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’ 16 So the last will be first, and the first last.”

 

How would you describe these things fitting in overall?  From my perspective, I really don't spend time thinking about rewards, as what I deserve is absolutely nothing.  Whatever good has come as a result of my life is because of Him, working through me, not because of anything to do with me.  I don't see myself as deserving any reward, His love is reward enough.

God bless

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20 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Thanks Marilyn,

Yes, I understand your thoughts on this.  What I am wondering though, is in considering how a flock of sheep are one single unit, as described in the passage, with one shepherd, doesn't that provide a clear indication that this one flock is together being watched by the one shepherd?  Since we know that we are not one flock as of yet, this would have to be referring to a future time don't you think?

Shalom, wingnut-.

I've been following along a little. Don't forget the undershepherds. Sometimes, they are presented as self-centered, but if a GOOD undershepherd or hireling or hired servant is doing as he is supposed to be doing, he is COMMENDED by the Shepherd.

NT:3411 misthotos (mis-tho-tos'); from NT:3409; a wage-worker (good or bad):
KJV - hired servant, hireling.

NT:3409 misthoo (mis-tho'-o); from NT:3408; to let out for wages, i.e. (middle voice) to hire:
KJV - hire.

NT:3408 misthos (mis-thos'); apparently a primary word; pay for services (literally or figuratively), good or bad:
KJV - hire, reward, wages.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

If one looks up "hire" or "reward" or "wages," he or she will find that there are SEVERAL times that such a good hireling or hired servant is commended and given a great "reward" or "wage!"

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