How do the believers in Christ differ from Israel?

[Swords99]

On 7/1/2017 at 9:33 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

Interesting discussion for if we, the believers of the Body of Christ will have different bodies then those of the new earth, then we are not of Israel.

`Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;....` (1 Cor. 15: 50)

So we realise that our blood will not be in our new bodies, we will be energised by a different life force - `The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.` (1 Cor. 15: 45)

Marilyn.

True, believers will have a glorified body like Christ's which will go through doors and windows and be from one place to the next in a second as Christ demonstrated after His resurrection.

The Jews never had a heavenly kingdom promised to them but an earthly one where Christ will be their king and rule in Jerusalem.

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, Swords99 said:

True, believers will have a glorified body like Christ's which will go through doors and windows and be from one place to the next in a second as Christ demonstrated after His resurrection.

The Jews never had a heavenly kingdom promised to them but an earthly one where Christ will be their king and rule in Jerusalem.

I agree, Swords99, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

 

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Hi wingnut,

Yes we agree that Jesus is the only way to the Father.

Concerning what or who we are grafted into, it is the Lord Himself. He is the holy root that nourishes us not Israel. (Rom. 11: 17)

`...with them become partaker of the (holy) root and fatness of the olive tree.`

When Gentiles in the OT came into Israel`s blessing they went to the land of Israel. Israel was the leader and the gentiles were under them.

However in the Body of Christ we are all equal, and do not have to reside in the land of Israel. Big differences there bro.

Concerning `rewards,` I love this old song, and I so agree with you.

`Glory for me, glory for me, that will be glory for me,

When by His grace I will look on His face, that will be glory, be glory for me.`

 

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

23 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Thanks Marilyn,

Yes, I understand your thoughts on this.  What I am wondering though, is in considering how a flock of sheep are one single unit, as described in the passage, with one shepherd, doesn't that provide a clear indication that this one flock is together being watched by the one shepherd?  Since we know that we are not one flock as of yet, this would have to be referring to a future time don't you think?

Hi wingnut,

Thought I`d say a bit more on this. Yes we are all one flock, all children of God, however.......that does not mean that all the children live on earth, or all live in the New Jerusalem, or all live in the third heaven. Do all your children live in the same house? or do the same thing? serving, jobs etc?

God has a great kingdom consisting of different realms with different serving positions for His children, so that it all functions harmoniously under Christ the supreme ruler.

Marilyn.

[wingnut-]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, wingnut-.

I've been following along a little. Don't forget the undershepherds. Sometimes, they are presented as self-centered, but if a GOOD undershepherd or hireling or hired servant is doing as he is supposed to be doing, he is COMMENDED by the Shepherd.

NT:3411 misthotos (mis-tho-tos'); from NT:3409; a wage-worker (good or bad):
KJV - hired servant, hireling.

NT:3409 misthoo (mis-tho'-o); from NT:3408; to let out for wages, i.e. (middle voice) to hire:
KJV - hire.

NT:3408 misthos (mis-thos'); apparently a primary word; pay for services (literally or figuratively), good or bad:
KJV - hire, reward, wages.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

If one looks up "hire" or "reward" or "wages," he or she will find that there are SEVERAL times that such a good hireling or hired servant is commended and given a great "reward" or "wage!"

 

Hey retro,

Yes, I agree with you.  I would say the most clear example we have of this is in regards to the prophets, who are specifically mentioned in Revelation in regards to the time for rewarding.  I am sure there will be others as well based on their faithful service, but I suppose my reaction to the post was in regards to the implication that someone like myself would be destined for a greater inheritance than OT saints, which the vast majority of the prophets would be included in.

God bless

[wingnut-]

4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

Yes we agree that Jesus is the only way to the Father.

Concerning what or who we are grafted into, it is the Lord Himself. He is the holy root that nourishes us not Israel. (Rom. 11: 17)

`...with them become partaker of the (holy) root and fatness of the olive tree.`

When Gentiles in the OT came into Israel`s blessing they went to the land of Israel. Israel was the leader and the gentiles were under them.

 

Hello Marilyn,

Yes, we also agree that we are grafted into the Lord Himself, which by definition is the Body of Christ.  Now since we are grafted into the same vine as the natural branches, and the natural branches represent Israel, we are all then grafted into the same body.  One body.

 

Romans 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,

 

The verse you mention above demonstrates this, the Gentiles are the wild olive shoot, grafted in among the natural branches (Israel)  and sharing from the same nourishing root, which is Jesus, the vine.  Either way, we are all still part of the same olive tree.

 

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

However in the Body of Christ we are all equal, and do not have to reside in the land of Israel.

 

I agree, we are all equal, but I suppose where we differ here is in regards to where we will dwell.

 

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Yes we are all one flock, all children of God, however.......that does not mean that all the children live on earth, or all live in the New Jerusalem, or all live in the third heaven.

 

Ok, so here are my thoughts on this and some scripture as to why we disagree on this aspect in regards to our eternal place.  First look at a few verses in regards to two of the seven churches in Revelation.

 

Revelation 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

 

Revelation 3:12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.

 

So in these two examples of things written to the seven churches, we see the tree of life, and we see specifically the New Jerusalem.  Not only are we told about the city, but that this church is told they will never go out of it.  We also see that the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven.  Here are some more things to notice in regards to all of the churches mentioned, in regards to conquering.

 

Revelation 21:6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

 

The one who conquers receives the New Jerusalem as part of their heritage, this is said to every single one of the seven churches.

 

Revelation 22  Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 

The water of life which was promised as heritage is found in the New Jerusalem, along with the tree of life.  The throne of both God and the Lamb are found in the New Jerusalem as well, this is where the water of life flows from.  Going back to what was said in one of the verses to the churches I posted previously, there is this.

 

Revelation 3:12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.

 

The temple is found in the New Jerusalem.

 

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

 

God the Father and Jesus, both in the city and both are the temple.  The fact they are both there according to scripture, makes any other possibility impossible to me.  In regards to eternal purposes, this is what I consider to be concrete evidence.  The fact that all of this is promised to the seven churches, makes it clear to me that this is our inheritance and our rewards.

I look forward to your thoughts on this sister.

God bless

[Marilyn C]

56 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

Hello Marilyn,

Yes, we also agree that we are grafted into the Lord Himself, which by definition is the Body of Christ.  Now since we are grafted into the same vine as the natural branches, and the natural branches represent Israel, we are all then grafted into the same body.  One body.

Romans 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,

The verse you mention above demonstrates this, the Gentiles are the wild olive shoot, grafted in among the natural branches (Israel)  and sharing from the same nourishing root, which is Jesus, the vine.  Either way, we are all still part of the same olive tree.

Hi wingnut,

I`ll just do a point at a time. See the bold phrase I have highlighted, that is an error I believe. Being grafted in, is a picture of us under the authority of Christ. Israel and also the nations (of the saved) will also be under the authority of Christ. being part of the `same olive tree,` is all of us under Christ`s supreme authority, and placed where He says we will serve.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

 

I agree, we are all equal, but I suppose where we differ here is in regards to where we will dwell.

Ok, so here are my thoughts on this and some scripture as to why we disagree on this aspect in regards to our eternal place.  First look at a few verses in regards to two of the seven churches in Revelation.

Revelation 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

Revelation 3:12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.

So in these two examples of things written to the seven churches, we see the tree of life, and we see specifically the New Jerusalem.  Not only are we told about the city, but that this church is told they will never go out of it.  We also see that the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven.  Here are some more things to notice in regards to all of the churches mentioned, in regards to conquering.

 

Hi wingnut,

Wonderful promises to the believers, the overcomers -

- eat of the tree of life, (Christ Himself, his character and life)

- pillar in the temple of my God, (Temple - is Christ, and we shall be part of worshipping Him and the Father.)

- name of my God, (name meaning authority - of the Father throughout God`s great kingdom - all realms)

- name of the New Jerusalem, which comes down from my God our of heaven, (Authority in the city also which will be just above the earth). 

- my (Jesus`) new name, (authority from the third heaven the seat of Christ`s authority and power.)

As a royal priesthood, (Kingpriests) we, the Body of Christ have the highest serving responsibility in all realms of God`s great kingdom.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

 

Revelation 21:6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

The one who conquers receives the New Jerusalem as part of their heritage, this is said to every single one of the seven churches.

Revelation 22  Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

The water of life which was promised as heritage is found in the New Jerusalem, along with the tree of life.  The throne of both God and the Lamb are found in the New Jerusalem as well, this is where the water of life flows from.  Going back to what was said in one of the verses to the churches I posted previously, there is this.

Revelation 3:12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.

The temple is found in the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

God the Father and Jesus, both in the city and both are the temple.  The fact they are both there according to scripture, makes any other possibility impossible to me.  In regards to eternal purposes, this is what I consider to be concrete evidence.  The fact that all of this is promised to the seven churches, makes it clear to me that this is our inheritance and our rewards.

I look forward to your thoughts on this sister.

God bless

Hi wingnut,

Let`s start with this verse -

`Then I, John, saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven FROM GOD,.... (Rev. 21: 2)

Thus we see that the city comes down out of heaven from God. God does not move, his seat of authority and power is and always over all. Jesus` seat of authority and power is also over all in this age and the one to come. (Eph. 1: 21) The word `throne` means God`s ruling authority and power. God the Father and Jesus will have their `throne` their authority and power in the city, however it is not their seat of authority and power over all.

For example, the Queen of England has her seat of authority and power, her throne in England. She also has a `throne` here in Australia, meaning her authority & power is over us Aussies. In our courts we go before the `Crown,` the authority of the Commonwealth, but the seat of authority and power resides in England.

 

Same as with the word `temple,` meaning worship and blessings. It is through Christ that those in the city are nourished, blessed and have ability to serve. The OT saints were the ones who have been promised this inheritance, the city -

` These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, they were assured of them, embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.....Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.` (Heb. 11: 13 & 16)

`you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the General Assembly and church of the first-born who are registered in heaven to God the judge of all, to the SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT. (OT  saints , men and women) (Heb. 12: 22 - 23)

That is who the city, the New Jerusalem has been prepared for, not us for we have a `better,` a greater dominion to serve in.

`God having provided something BETTER FOR US...` (Heb. 11: 40)

 

Marilyn.

[Retrobyter]

On 7/1/2017 at 3:16 AM, Marilyn C said:

 

Hi Retro,

I will just focus on one point, and we can get back to the others later. Let`s just recap so we can focus.  We are looking at whether the Lord and the believers in their new bodies can go through dimensions. You say we don`t really know this and that when `Jesus came, the doors being shut, stood in their midst,` (John 20: 26) you believe that there could be many reasons for that.

I brought up that verse to show that the Lord has abilities far beyond what we have, and then concerning the transfiguration of Christ, I believe we would both agree that it revealed His Deity.

So now we are looking at our glorified bodies like unto Christ`s, but obviously not His Deity. I stated that - God`s word also tells us that `there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.`  (1 Cor. 15: 44)  

Clearly the earthly body made of the dust returns to it, but we shall bear the image of the heavenly man. And that is like the Lord, who has a spiritual body that is not limited by earthly limitations.

Thus, (I concluded that) there is a natural dimension and a spiritual dimension. The Lord is quite able to operate in each as shown in His word.

You replied and brought up the scripture where the Lord said He had hands and feet, and that a spirit does not have flesh and bones. (Luke 24: 38 - 40) You say my `..conclusion that there is a "spiritual dimension," containing "spiritual bodies" that are "not limited by earthly limitations" is faulty. It doesn't fit the facts of Scripture! `

So I now reply saying our new gloried bodies will be -

-Not of the earth, dust, therefore not flesh and bones of the earth.

 

`The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly man, so are those who are heavenly.  And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image o the heavenly man.` (1 Cor. 15: 47 - 49)

 

- Of heavenly material, substance. (2Cor. 5: 1)

-Not corruptible but incorruptible, (1 Cor. 15: 53)

-Not mortal but immortal. (1 Cor.15: 53)

 

God`s word also tells us that `there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.`  (1 Cor. 15: 44)   This `spiritual body` or body with a spirit, is clothed from heaven as the Apostle Paul tells us.

`For we know that is our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.

For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.`` (2 Cor. 4: 1 - 4)

Thus I conclude that the glorified body of the Lord Jesus Christ, with flesh and bones, is from heaven and not flesh and bones as we have, from the earth, dust. The glorified body is a covering and structure over the spirit, so we will not be naked, as scripture says. What this bodies abilities are will be glorious and wonderful, and far beyond what we can do in these earthly bodies.

 There is more but will give you time to address this.

 

 Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

Thank you for this synopsis. I really appreciate it. And, thank you for allowing me to address these points.

I feel that where we mostly differ is in your statement here: "Clearly the earthly body made of the dust returns to it, but we shall bear the image of the heavenly man. And that is like the Lord, who has a spiritual body that is not limited by earthly limitations."

The problem is that the RESURRECTION EVENT is not possible if there is no true resurrection. The "spiritual body" MUST be the original body transformed or there's really no resurrection. Resurrection suggests continuity, and that's even MORE important when you realize that we ARE our bodies! We don't "leave our bodies behind" in the dust, in the earth. We ARE OUR BODIES!

When the Master Yeshua` the Messiah (the Lord Jesus the Christ) was resurrected, IT WAS HIM! It was NOT His "spiritual body" that merely LOOKED LIKE His "crucified body." Furthermore, His "spiritual body" would not have the marks of His crucifixion, if it was a different body!

You've got to understand that the Last Adam originally had the same type of body as the First Adam:

1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
KJV

1 Corinthians 15:45 was quoted from Genesis 2:7:

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV

Such a quote gives us LOTS of information: First, it gives us a word-by-word equivalence of the words of the quoted language (Hebrew) translated into the words of the receiving language (Greek). Regardless how these two verses are translated into English, we know that...

(Greek) = (Hebrew)

haa'aadaam = ho anthroopos
vayhiy = egenato
l- = eis
nefesh = psucheen
chayaah = zoosan .

Second, the definitions of the two words, nefesh and psuchee, are basically synonymous. Therefore, we can test the definitions of both against each other in Strong's Concordance's Dictionaries:

OT:5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
KJV - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature,  dead (-ly), desire,  [dis-] contented,  fish, ghost,  greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath,  jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thyself-), them (your)- selves,  slay, soul,  tablet, they, thing, (X she) will,  would have it.

OT:5314 naafash (naw-fash'); a primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
KJV - (be) refresh selves (-ed).

NT:5590 psuchee (psoo-khay'); from NT:5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from NT:4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from NT:2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew OT:5315, OT:7307 and OT:2416):
KJV - heart (+-ily), life, mind, soul, us, you.

NT:5594 psuchoo (psoo'-kho); a primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently, thus differing on the one hand from NT:4154, which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of NT:109, which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by implication of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively):
KJV - wax cold.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

One can see that the concordance's writers of the dictionaries either

(1) didn't check their work between languages, like this, or
(2) allowed their own teaching and upbringing to influence how they wrote the dictionaries.

In either case, we can see the discrepancy between the definition for nefesh and the definition for psuchee, even though there's no discrepancy between the definitions of naafash and psuchoo. It's a little like the old Sesame Street jingle, "One of these things is not like the others." And, the one of the four that sticks out so differently from the other three is the definition for "psuchee."

That's enough for now, but I hope you can see these points.