The Apocrypha

[PageofGrace]

2 hours ago, Swords99 said:

Yes, Jesus told Peter that. Who were the sheep? Jews? Gentiles? Christians?

There were no Christians in Jesus day. The sheep , a traditional sacrificial animal of the time interestingly enough among the Jews, are the Jews and the Gentiles both. 

[KiwiChristian]

6 hours ago, PageofGrace said:

Hi Kiwi, I'm Paige.  

I read the first response to your message here and they excerpted something you said about Ecclesiasticus 3:3. 

I'm hoping to understand your interpretation that that verse talks about money forgives sins. "Whoso honoureth his father maketh an atonement for his sins: " 

Where does it say that in that verse three that I shared there? Thank you. 

Sorry, misquote. its Tobit 4:11 and Tobit 12:9 that teaches money forgives sins.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

8 hours ago, Yowm said:

Your question was a deflection IMHO

It is not a deflection but a question to form a baseline to which a discussion can proceed. I don't know his stance there fore in order to proceed I would need to know that. 

Since the focus of his post is based on the books found in the Septuagint it's a very valid question. I get the feeling you feel uncomfortable with the question because you faced the same question in a different thread and failed to answer it. 

[Flowerwater]

55 minutes ago, KiwiChristian said:

Sorry, misquote. its Tobit 4:11 and Tobit 12:9 that teaches money forgives sins.

That's crap though. You know this right? If money forgave sins only the rich would see heaven. 

There's wisdom in scripture that says, discern what is truth in what is written. 

 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

54 minutes ago, KiwiChristian said:

Sorry, misquote. its Tobit 4:11 and Tobit 12:9 that teaches money forgives sins.

Catholic Study Bible

Tobit 4:8-12

8 8If you have many possessions, make your gift from them in proportion; if few, do not be afraid to give according to the little you have.
9 9So you will be laying up a good treasure for yourself against the day of necessity.
10 For charity * delivers from death and keeps you from entering the darkness;
11 11and for all who practice it charity is an excellent offering in the presence of the Most High.
12 "Beware, my son, of all immorality. * First of all take a wife from among the descendants of your fathers and do not marry a foreign woman, who is not of your father's tribe; for we are the sons of the prophets. Remember, my son, that Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, our fathers of old, all took wives from among their brethren. They were blessed in their children, and their posterity will inherit the land.

dont see anything about forgiving sins. But it does bring to mind 

Mark 12:41-44

41 Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42 But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a few cents.

43 Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44 They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.”

-----------------------------

Catholic Study Bible

Tobit 12:1-10

1 1Tobit then called his son Tobi'as and said to him, "My son, see to the wages of the man who went with you; and he must also be given more."
2 2He replied, "Father, it would do me no harm to give him half of what I have brought back.
3 3For he has led me back to you safely, he cured my wife, he obtained the money for me, and he also healed you."
4 4The old man said, "He deserves it."
5 5So he called the angel and said to him, "Take for your wages half of all that you two have brought back, and farewell."
6 Then the angelcalled the two of them privately and said to them: "Praise God and give thanks to him; exalt him and give thanks to him in the presence of all the living for what he has done for you. It is good to praise God and to exalt his name, worthily declaring the works of God, and with fitting honor to acknowledge him. Do not be slow to give him thanks.
7 7It is good to guard the secret of a king, but gloriously to reveal the works of God, and with fitting honor to acknowledge him. Do good, and evil will not overtake you.
8 8Prayer is good when accompanied by fasting, almsgiving, and righteousness. A little with righteousness is better than much with wrongdoing. It is better to give alms than to treasure up gold.
9 For almsgiving delivers from death, and it will purge away every sin. Those who perform deeds of charity * and of righteousness will have fulness of life;
10 10but those who commit sin are the enemies of their own lives.

From the Jewish Encyclopedia:

 In the course of time the giving of Alms out of mere pity and without regard to the permanent relief of the recipient, became a meritorious practise, possessing, like sacrifice, the power of atoning for man's sins, and redeeming him from calamity and death. The verse Prov. xi. 4 (compare xvi. 6, xxi. 3) was expounded in this sense: "Water will quench blazing fire; so doth almsgiving make atonement for sins." "Lay up alms in thy store-house; it shall deliver thee from all affliction" (Ecclus. iii. 30, xxix. 12).

----

Accordingly, King Nebuchadnezzar is told by Daniel: "Break off thy sins by righteousness [ẓedaḳah—almsgiving] and thine iniquities by showing mercy to the poor" (Dan. iv. 27), and both Daniel and the king become models of charity (Midr. Zuṭṭa, Cant., ed. Buber, p. 21). (See Altar.) The entire story of Tobit is a lesson on almsgiving and its redeeming powers (Tobit, i. 3, 16; ii. 14; iv. 7-11; xii. 8, 9). "Alms deliver from death and purge away all sin" (compare Prov. xi. 4); whence the custom of giving Alms at funerals (see Ẓedaḳah Box). "Every one who occupies himself with charity shall behold the face of God," as it is written (Ps. xvii. 15, Heb.): "I behold Thy face by almsgiving" (ẓedeḳ; see Midr. Teh. l.c., B. B. 10a). Almsgiving, prayer, and fasting constituted the three cardinal disciplines which the synagogue transmitted to both the Christian church and the Mohammedan mosque (see Tobit, xii. 8; and compare Matt. vi. 1-18; and the Koran, where almsgiving, called zakat (Aramaic zakuta), or sadaḳa (ẓedaḳah), is always mentioned in connection with prayer (sura ii. 40, 104; ix. 54). The Mandæans, too, made almsgiving (zidka) and fasting the means of obtaining eternal life and bliss (see Brand, "Mandäische Schriften," pp. 28 et seq.). According to Rab Assi of the third century, "almsgiving is equal in value to all other commandments" (B. B. 9a; compare Luke, xv.): "It saves man from sudden, unnatural death and the soul from doom" (R. Johanan, B. B. 10a, after Prov. x. 2): "Almsgiving is more than any sacrifice, though personal charity is superior even to almsgiving" (R. Eleazar, Suk. 49b). R. Eleazar states also that it should precede prayer, taking Ps. xvii. 15 also to mean, "After almsgiving I shall behold Thy face," B.B. 10a. Likewise each fast-day was virtually an occasion for almsgiving, as the day's offerings were handed over to the poor (Ber. 6b). Compare Midr. Zuṭṭa, Cant., ed. Buber, p. 21: "The Israelites fast and give their food and that of their children to the poor"—quoted by Origen, "Homilies to Leviticus," x. (see also Aristides, xv. 9).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1295-alms

 

 

[KiwiChristian]

4 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

Catholic Study Bible

Tobit 4:8-12

8 8If you have many possessions, make your gift from them in proportion; if few, do not be afraid to give according to the little you have.
9 9So you will be laying up a good treasure for yourself against the day of necessity.
10 For charity * delivers from death and keeps you from entering the darkness;
11 11and for all who practice it charity is an excellent offering in the presence of the Most High.
12 "Beware, my son, of all immorality. * First of all take a wife from among the descendants of your fathers and do not marry a foreign woman, who is not of your father's tribe; for we are the sons of the prophets. Remember, my son, that Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, our fathers of old, all took wives from among their brethren. They were blessed in their children, and their posterity will inherit the land.

dont see anything about forgiving sins. But it does bring to mind 

Mark 12:41-44

41 Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42 But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a few cents.

43 Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44 They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.”

-----------------------------

Catholic Study Bible

Tobit 12:1-10

1 1Tobit then called his son Tobi'as and said to him, "My son, see to the wages of the man who went with you; and he must also be given more."
2 2He replied, "Father, it would do me no harm to give him half of what I have brought back.
3 3For he has led me back to you safely, he cured my wife, he obtained the money for me, and he also healed you."
4 4The old man said, "He deserves it."
5 5So he called the angel and said to him, "Take for your wages half of all that you two have brought back, and farewell."
6 Then the angelcalled the two of them privately and said to them: "Praise God and give thanks to him; exalt him and give thanks to him in the presence of all the living for what he has done for you. It is good to praise God and to exalt his name, worthily declaring the works of God, and with fitting honor to acknowledge him. Do not be slow to give him thanks.
7 7It is good to guard the secret of a king, but gloriously to reveal the works of God, and with fitting honor to acknowledge him. Do good, and evil will not overtake you.
8 8Prayer is good when accompanied by fasting, almsgiving, and righteousness. A little with righteousness is better than much with wrongdoing. It is better to give alms than to treasure up gold.
9 For almsgiving delivers from death, and it will purge away every sin. Those who perform deeds of charity * and of righteousness will have fulness of life;
10 10but those who commit sin are the enemies of their own lives.

From the Jewish Encyclopedia:

 In the course of time the giving of Alms out of mere pity and without regard to the permanent relief of the recipient, became a meritorious practise, possessing, like sacrifice, the power of atoning for man's sins, and redeeming him from calamity and death. The verse Prov. xi. 4 (compare xvi. 6, xxi. 3) was expounded in this sense: "Water will quench blazing fire; so doth almsgiving make atonement for sins." "Lay up alms in thy store-house; it shall deliver thee from all affliction" (Ecclus. iii. 30, xxix. 12).

----

Accordingly, King Nebuchadnezzar is told by Daniel: "Break off thy sins by righteousness [ẓedaḳah—almsgiving] and thine iniquities by showing mercy to the poor" (Dan. iv. 27), and both Daniel and the king become models of charity (Midr. Zuṭṭa, Cant., ed. Buber, p. 21). (See Altar.) The entire story of Tobit is a lesson on almsgiving and its redeeming powers (Tobit, i. 3, 16; ii. 14; iv. 7-11; xii. 8, 9). "Alms deliver from death and purge away all sin" (compare Prov. xi. 4); whence the custom of giving Alms at funerals (see Ẓedaḳah Box). "Every one who occupies himself with charity shall behold the face of God," as it is written (Ps. xvii. 15, Heb.): "I behold Thy face by almsgiving" (ẓedeḳ; see Midr. Teh. l.c., B. B. 10a). Almsgiving, prayer, and fasting constituted the three cardinal disciplines which the synagogue transmitted to both the Christian church and the Mohammedan mosque (see Tobit, xii. 8; and compare Matt. vi. 1-18; and the Koran, where almsgiving, called zakat (Aramaic zakuta), or sadaḳa (ẓedaḳah), is always mentioned in connection with prayer (sura ii. 40, 104; ix. 54). The Mandæans, too, made almsgiving (zidka) and fasting the means of obtaining eternal life and bliss (see Brand, "Mandäische Schriften," pp. 28 et seq.). According to Rab Assi of the third century, "almsgiving is equal in value to all other commandments" (B. B. 9a; compare Luke, xv.): "It saves man from sudden, unnatural death and the soul from doom" (R. Johanan, B. B. 10a, after Prov. x. 2): "Almsgiving is more than any sacrifice, though personal charity is superior even to almsgiving" (R. Eleazar, Suk. 49b). R. Eleazar states also that it should precede prayer, taking Ps. xvii. 15 also to mean, "After almsgiving I shall behold Thy face," B.B. 10a. Likewise each fast-day was virtually an occasion for almsgiving, as the day's offerings were handed over to the poor (Ber. 6b). Compare Midr. Zuṭṭa, Cant., ed. Buber, p. 21: "The Israelites fast and give their food and that of their children to the poor"—quoted by Origen, "Homilies to Leviticus," x. (see also Aristides, xv. 9).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1295-alms

 

 

pro-catholic, anti-Christian source.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

On 7/2/2017 at 10:36 PM, Yowm said:

 

 

It came across as a deflection to me. You said it is not, fine.

OBTW, I do not believe the Septuagint is inspired, never did. When I was saved, the Lord led me to the Bible with 66 Books, not the other one...If that answers your question.

thank you for being honest and answering the question. I disagree with you and so did the Apostles and all Christians for 1500 years. Why would you go with a canon that the Apostles didn't use and Christian's didn't use. Why do you go to a non christian faith for your canon and scriptures?

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

On 7/3/2017 at 1:15 AM, KiwiChristian said:

pro-catholic, anti-Christian source.

pro-catholic... HA that's interesting. I got that from a Jewish website to understand what was being said there since it was written for  a jewish audience.

anti-christian well that only gets a lower case ha. You turn to an anti-christian faith to determine your scripture and REJECT the Apostle and Christians. Sound more like you're following an anti-christian source than me. Just saying.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

3 hours ago, Yowm said:

Like I said, it's the Faith the Lord drew me to through His Word and Spirit (as well as 3 'visions'). You may call it a non Christian faith but I don't and neither has the Lord shown me that it is.

I was referring to the Jewish faith being non-Christian. I was not saying your faith is non-Christian. I have no doubt that you are Christian. 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

2 hours ago, Yowm said:

Ok, in that case the Christian faith is based on the Jewish Scriptures inspired  by Jewish Prophets and Apostles. Because many Jews do not believe their own writings doesn't nullify their truth or change it's nature. That was sort of a strange question to answer, is that what you were getting at?

 

"and Apostles"

but the Apostles used the Septuagint as scripture and you reject their scriptures. You turn to the group of Jews that reject Jesus AND killed him as your authority for OT scriptures. And you REJECT the scriptures used by the Apostles and Jesus's disciples. 

I'm going to use the scriptures used by the Aposltes and disciples of Jesus and not the scriptures used by non-Christians that reject Jesus.