What is free will really, what does it mean to have free will?

[enoob57]

To you question: "what is anything that is not of God in your reasoning?"

To my reasoning, well, to the revelation of scripture, in God there is not darkness at all, everything He does is good, righteous, holy! So sin and evil, is not of God. I don't understand why you would think that I think otherwise. Satan rebelled against God. Mankind has rebelled against God. The fall short of God's perfection, the essence of sin.

God allowed it to happen. How do we know? Because it exists!

This is the logical fallacy I spoke to you about -it doesn't exist yet it exists... the eternity 'IS' God presence as He is The God of the living not the dead. We the created of God by design of begin, for we are began in God, are also of His Image and who has told God what to do right! Thus we have sovereignty of choice in self right? All this now fallen and disconnected to God by in the day you eat thereof you will die... yet from that time God has requested in the form of human responsibility choice from that fallen nature through election based on foreknowledge undefined by God in His Word... this is as far as can be gone for the Word takes us no further! Now our responsibility is to stand where Scripture says to stand and wait there in obedience to God receiving this as love from us in doing so..

[hmbld]

2 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

 

This is the logical fallacy I spoke to you about -it doesn't exist yet it exists... the eternity 'IS' God presence as He is The God of the living not the dead. We the created of God by design of begin, for we are began in God, are also of His Image and who has told God what to do right! Thus we have sovereignty of choice in self right? All this now fallen and disconnected to God by in the day you eat thereof you will die... yet from that time God has requested in the form of human responsibility choice from that fallen nature through election based on foreknowledge undefined by God in His Word... this is as far as can be gone for the Word takes us no further! Now our responsibility is to stand where Scripture says to stand and wait there in obedience to God receiving this as love from us in doing so..

My translation skills are lacking, but I'll try!!!

God is the God of the living.

God created man in His image.

God requires each to be responsible for their own choice.

God's Word states that He has foreknowledge of who will choose Him.  

We are to stand on scripture and not apply man's logic to that which is not stated.  

I think I missed some points in there but this is how far I got!

[enoob57]

10 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Stephen, you really, really need to stop reading into things that people say, mis-characterizing what people say, when they disagree with you, is close to putting words into their mouths. One of two things is happening, either you are doing it intentionally (which I doubt), or you are not understanding, If you think that those who are of the mind, that God is sovereign, and has allowed things to happen (which is so beyond obvious that I do not even know what to say) are somehow, saying that God is the author if evil or anything close to it, then you are just not getting it. If that is how you see it, that is YOUR reasoning, not ours. If you don't understand, then stop accusing others and acknowledge what they are saying, not what they are not.

What part of sovereign do you not understand? No one tells God what to do!

 

Good now what part of God's sovereignty do you not understand?

Genesis 1:26 (KJV)

[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

so if The Lord placed self authorized choice in His Image who has told God what he can or cannot do?

Genesis 3:22 (KJV)

[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

[23] Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

[24] So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

 

[enoob57]

9 minutes ago, hmbld said:

My translation skills are lacking, but I'll try!!!

God is the God of the living.

God created man in His image.

God requires each to be responsible for their own choice.

God's Word states that He has foreknowledge of who will choose Him.  

We are to stand on scripture and not apply man's logic to that which is not stated.  

I think I missed some points in there but this is how far I got!

God's foreknowledge is not defined in God's Word (His parameters are endless and we simply do not know them)
Because we are self centered due to sin and in a fallen world God must draw us back to Himself and He has done so in Jesus...
The linage of reason leave us more like small children waiting upon a Father (like no other) for increase  

[Omegaman 3.0]

54 minutes ago, hmbld said:

I did check it out, and while I can see your thought process is a possibility, and I already confessed that I seem to cherry pick verses that agree with my opinion, and several of the verses you supplied I do want to brush off, it also seems you pick and choose what you agree with, though you have studied much more than I, and can encompass much more thought and scripture than I without getting lost in the forest.  I'm slightly too deep in the forest and will have to see if my head will clear up later, thanks again mega!

Thank you so much for you sincerity, openness, honesty, etc. I do pick and choose what I agree with, in a way. Mind you, I was not a "Calvinist, for the first 36 years of my life as a believer. I don't think that I was picking and choosing verses, to support may lack of Calvinism, lol, I just did not know what to believe. I called myself a Calminian, I agreed with some of both views.

At present, it is not that I pick verses that support my position, it is that verses have convinced me that my former position, was in error, and I have to admit, that this reformed position, is scripturally correct. Would you expect me to chose verses, that go against what I believe the Bible's position is? I am presenting a case for a position, and so of course, the verses I am selecting, support that case. Mind you, it was not my intention to unravel all the ins and outs, of Calvinism, Arminianism, or Whoknowsism, it only opened with what I think, represents the reality of what free will is.

I said:

You are free to choose to do what you want to do,
but you are not free to choose what it is, that you want to do,
nor are you necessarily able, to do what you choose to do!

One by one, with examples.

I can choose to flap my arms and fly like a bird - so I am free to choose to do, what I want to do.

I cannot choose to want to swallow a pound of sand, I can choose to swallow that pound of sand, but I do not get to choose to want to.

Just because I want to fly like a bird, does not mean I am able to do so.

As a spiritual  application of this concept or description of free will, I am free to choose to disobey God, if that is what I want, and, it is what I want, in my human nature, I want to do things my way, and sometimes I choose to act on my wants, we call this sin, when our wants do not align with God's will.

When I was an Atheist, I could choose to read the Bible. I could choose to attend church. I could choose to sing praises to God. I could not choose to WANT to do these things, and I certainly could not choose to want to love God with all my mind, heart, soul and strength.

If I had chosen to avoid eternal torment, and just be in a state of unconsciousness after physical death, those would be things I would choose, but, they were not things that were in my power to make happen.

This understanding of free will, is what I presently believe, and that was the actual topic of the thread. I would still like to see people point out, from scripture, why I should not believe those things to be true.

I hope you find your way out of the forest hmbld, lol, for now, I guess I will see why there were 5 replies to this thread, while I typed this response.

[WalkingMyFishLikeABoss]

On 7/14/2017 at 4:17 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

and the problem I have with a statement like that, is that it makes you the judge of what is logical. I consider myself to be logical, and I do not come to any such conclusion.

Of course, that even need qualification. God's sovereignty is related to the existence of sin, as long as one understands, that the fact that God sovereignly allowed (and still does allow) sin, it does not mean than He created or caused sin. God made the creation, He created the environment, and He created beings, who sin.

Without firearms, no one would be shot with a gun. That does not mean, that the maker of a firearm, is responsible for how other abuse them.

Except that sin is an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.  When God created divine law he created sin.

 

 

 

On 7/13/2017 at 5:10 PM, enoob57 said:

Interesting

1 John 1:5 (KJV)

[5] This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

 

 

 

Especially considering Isaiah 45:7-8

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 7/15/2017 at 8:58 AM, hmbld said:

I agree, scripture does state that no one seeks God, so therefore He must call us first, yet you are saying He does not call all, therefore it is His will for some to remain lost.  I still disagree with that logic, as scripture states He desires ALL to come to Him, so if there is no free will-(after being called, sought after, desired by God), then what could be the point of evangelizing?  If no one can resist God, and He has already chosen who will come to Him?  In our previous conversation, some time ago, I stated that when I first talked to God, and really heard Him, I felt like I could not choose to resist Him, as I wanted the light, and was unable to find it myself, I needed Him.  Yet, I must base truth on scripture, not what I think I experienced.  Scripture states God desires all to come to Him, yet He does not make us come to Him, as some are lost.  There must be some choice on our part, after God puts in our hearts the desire to come to Him.  

Careful there I did not say that He does not call all, I said He does not choose all. One can place an ad in the paper, and announce that there are openings (going to be a poor analogy, but you will get the basic point), that does not mean you will choose all possible candidates. You said you disagree with that logic (applied to a larger premise that what I just quoted). People are too quick (not you) to point out logical fallacies, as if spiritual truth is determined by man made rules of philosophy. One does not need to take a class nor read a book on philosophy, God is able to reveal unto babes what He wants them to know, and to use the foolish to confound the wise. Sometimes, not always, people trot out the logic card in debates here, when they run out of strong points, they toss specialized words out there like non sequitur, or straw man, ad  hominem, red herring, argument from silence, burden of proof, circular reasoning, etc. It seems at times to me, that this is a tactic to shut others up, who may not even know what these terms mean. "You did not take a logic class in community college, therefore you cannot understand scripture", lol. Well, I am guilty myself of using such terms, and I have not even taken a course in logic nor read a book on it.

I want to be clear, that I believe that logic has it's place, certainly Jesus and Paul both employed it regularly. What I am not saying, is that I am offering my logic - which you disagree with.  I am saying that it is God's revelation. People, as you know, have trouble with things like the trinity, does the trinity need to be logical, to be true?

 I am the first to admit that my logic falls short. His ways are above my ways, and my fallen mind, is not capable of logic without error. So, at times, I have to suspend my logic and trust what God has said instead.

You said: 

Quote

He desires ALL to come to Him, so if there is no free will-(after being called, sought after, desired by God), then what could be the point of evangelizing?

Well, I would offer that the point of evangelizing, can be looked at a couple of ways. The first one, makes the others moot:

18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; - Matt 28

Jesus said to evangelize, that is the main reason to do it. However, you want the reason behind the reason I guess. My general rule is, when someone wants to know why, it is not my place to speculate for God. Still, perhaps Paul speaks to this:

 14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”

      16However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

It seems then, that righteousness is by faith, right? We know this from several passages. Above in verse 17, we see that this faith, is in the good news that is preached. I know you are familiar with the following passage:

 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Even that passage has interesting things that may not jump out at you at first. Notice, that we are saved THROUGH faith, it is a vehicle, it is through, but not BY. The "by" part is grace. Grace is a gift, if we did something for it, then it is not a gift. Inherent in grace, is the idea that we did not deserve it, it is bestowed upon us. To amplify it, Paul said it is the gift of God, then, he reinforces that yet again, by telling us that in is NOT the result of works. Works, are something WE do. If we pray, if we ask, if we receive, if we believe, if we confess, those are all works, things that we do. Unless of course, it is God who gives us the faith. Notice Paul also said "this not of yourselves".

Paul says, that because of this, we cannot boast. If we say, we had something to do with our salvation, then we are taking credit for what God has done. It goes from a gift, to a reward for actions, for works. Even if we dare to say "God chose me because He knew that I would . . . " we are taking credit again, for something we did, even if it is something we have not done yet, it is still us that is doing it. It is all grace, all God and this not of ourselves. We respond to God, not to be saved, we respond to God, because we are saved. 

Hmmm, I wrote that about 6 hours ago, then got sidetracked, then fell asleep, and did not realize that I did not send it, or even remember writing it, lol. If I had a train of thought, I lost it!

Well anyway, moving on . . .  you said:

Quote

In our previous conversation, some time ago, I stated that when I first talked to God, and really heard Him, I felt like I could not choose to resist Him, as I wanted the light, and was unable to find it myself, I needed Him.

That sounds suspiciously like one of the 5 points of Calvinism - Irresistible Grace. It is not a point that I am big on though, and I agree with your statement:

Quote

Yet, I must base truth on scripture, not what I think I experienced. Scripture states God desires all to come to Him, yet He does not make us come to Him, as some are lost.  There must be some choice on our part, after God puts in our hearts the desire to come to Him.  

I do not know where you are getting the "there must be some choice on our part" (is that in scripture?). My premise there is that the choice on our part does exist, but it does not exist until after we are born again, in fact, I don't think we are able to choose Him nor understand the gospel in any real way - where we buy into it, nor do we have the yearning for him to truly seek Him (not just that general yearning of man to discover and know the creator). This is a bit out of context, but I think the principle holds:

13‘You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.

So, I ask, does a person who is still a slave to sin, stuck in the flesh, ever seek God with all their heart? We have to have the indwelling of the Spirit, before we can cry out: "Abba".

For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" Romans 8:15

You say He does not make us come to Him, as some are lost. My response to that is, I don't know, maybe He does, but not everyone, just those He has chosen. To me the Bible is pretty clear, that there are an elect, and that they are the few, not the majority. What is not clear, is why He chooses some, and not others. Think of Jesus as He chose apostles, He only chose 12, and the Bible does not tell us why He chose, who He chose. In fact, to my mind the closest it comes to giving a reason, was for Judas, the one who would betray Him. Judas was part of a master plan, he was prophesied to betray Jesus, maybe not Judas by name, but some friend of Jesus, was going to do it. Sort of speaks to predestination to some degree, just as it was said of Pharaoh, "for this reason I raised you up". The betrayal, and crucifixion of Jesus, was not plan B, it was the plan from the beginning.

Sorry, got a bit of track as I tend to do while rambling. Circling back for a moment (Romans 8 is still on my mind), Romans 7 is an interesting read, where Paul describes the features of our dual nature, the flesh, versus the spiritual, and how he was not able to do what he wanted, it just was not in him. Then in contrast, he moves on the chapter 8, where he describes the solution for sinful man, God's provision of providing the Spirit for those who are in Christ. That is where there is a gold mine of information, about how the flesh = death, our hostility toward God, and our inability to please God as long as we are stuck in that state.

Romans 7 and 8, are good reads to do on a regular basis - loaded with spiritual truths. I recommend that everyone, every Christian, reread it if they have not done so in a while.

Restating - since I went so far off track

You said: "There must be some choice on our part, after God puts in our hearts the desire to come to Him." 

Must there? Why must there? What dictates, that the choice comes AFTER. Why is it not plausible, that God gives us His Spirit, and at that time, we understand and are freed from sin, are followers of God before we have even had the time to form the thought to choose. I believe we are born again, Spirit indwelt slaves to God, and then we can go through the motions of choosing God, etc. but the reality has already happened, it might just be a while, before we realize and acknowledge what God has done for us. Our minds are slow, the Spirit is outside of time, shorter than in instant in our perspective.

What think ye? 

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 7/15/2017 at 3:45 PM, WalkingMyFishLikeABoss said:

Except that sin is an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.  When God created divine law he created sin.

First off, sin is not limited to transgressions of law, unless you consider law to be God's thoughts and will, even without there being any written code. Sin is much simpler than that, sin is falling short of perfection. God did not create sin by creating law, by law, He exposed or revealed sin, for what it is. You do not have to have a law that says, 'thou shalt not murder' for murder to be a sin, it is sin by nature, because it is outside of God's will, written or not!

God did not create sin. If He did, then God was the first sinner.

[enoob57]

3 hours ago, WalkingMyFishLikeABoss said:

Except that sin is an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.  When God created divine law he created sin.

 

 

 

Especially considering Isaiah 45:7-8

The word evil translated from the Hebrew is best understood calamity... God did not utilize nor have anything to do with sin... it is not a created essence!

[warrior12]

14 hours ago, enoob57 said:

the two bolded underlined elements are the direction of topic and according to Oman because satan was able to do what he did God made him able to do so... when The Biblical reality is that God made him perfect in all his ways 'till iniquity was found in him' -satan fathered lie and that is perversion of created essence not created by God... therefore we are to give it no place as it has none with God and His Word... this clearly stated by God

1 John 1:5 (KJV)

[5] This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Just   trying to comprehend satan ability to create as in your statement in essence he "satan" created sin and as you points out in scripture there is no darkness in God.   So how did satan get or have this capability to create sin.  I mean it is a damming thing that is has our world and mankind in the state it is in. Surely God would have to have known that satan had that capability and allowed it.   God is the Alpha and Omega, therefore his knowledge of satan choice would have been known.  I think ,there are some things that happened there that we are not privileged to know in detail and God made it this way to limit our knowledge of  that period.

My stammer is God made satan perfect in all his ways, that meant ultimate perfection.   How could ultimate perfection come to know pride as it should not have existed and therefore not be a choice in a perfect world.  Something is missing that maybe the folks here could fill in.

Colossians 1  King James Version (KJV)

¹⁶ For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

¹⁷ And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.