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What is free will really, what does it mean to have free will?


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3 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

Um..."without intellect"? If they were unable to comprehend ultimatums and choice, then sin could not have been held against Man in the first place.

Since Adam named all the animals that God created, him and Eve could reason, and God was able to give them instructions that they could understand (and therefore disobey), I would have to say that man did have an intellect. Scripture records that God "created Man in His own image", and we know God is not exactly an idiot.

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On another note entirely (speaking in general now and not specifically to any one person): one thing I would like to point out is that in order to love, it has to be a choice. Love cannot be forced, or it is not love but coercion. With love, there has to be the option to not love, as love is caring for anothers' greatest good, and there has to be the option to not do so. When God created the universe, He did not base it on an arbitrary set of rules that He "made up", nor did he base it on a "code" that He "followed" and thus would have been higher than the Lord. The Lord based good on His own attributes and nature; since Scripture tells us "God is love", the Lord would not have created man and then forced him to do as the Lord wished. That would have gone completely against God's character, as it would make God directly responsible for sin and at best, an arbitrary, capricious and petulant being that would be for worse than any "Devil".

In short: without free will, man would not be able to love his Creator (or anyone else for that matter), and salvation would be pointless. But rather, God's sovereignty is not threatened at all by the free will of His creations (if it were, then He would not be God), and He retains His sovereignty even though man has choice and free will.

With all of that said, it all boils down to one basic question which was asked at the Garden: "Has God said?" Some say that "had they been there at the Garden, they would have chose differently". But the thing is: in a sense, we already are there, and it is a choice all of us face: do we choose to decide for ourselves what good and evil are, or do we instead decide to trust the Lord on it? We must all make the same choice Adam and Eve did; only this time, we are not innocent as they were, and we have seen the effects of trying to "know good and evil" for ourselves. Intellect and experience of sin are not the same thing here, and looking at it from the "other side of the tree" now is a sobering experience for us (or should be).

All of us must make that decision, and the crux of salvation lies in choosing that the Lord alone has the say on what is good and evil. When we believe that, then we believe what He says about us, that we are lost  and cannot save ourselves, that we need a savior, and that God came to earth to die for us (Jesus Christ).

Sin existed before Adam and Eve made their fateful choice to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. As did evil exist then too, being its source, the fruit, was hanging on the tree conjoined with good, it's antithesis. Its dual aspect.

Knowledge of right from wrong. Obedience and disobedience. Knowing right from wrong is what allows the integrity of choice to exist and persist.

Adam and Eve were without that.

That they named animals isn't indicative of knowledge of obedience and disobedience. They were innocents, naming animals. That's why after they ate of the fruit they became conscious. Conscious they were naked. And then they became ashamed of the bodies they'd exposed to one another all that time before eating of the fruit.

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On 7/16/2017 at 3:45 PM, warrior12 said:

Well if the word" IF" is used in the context that you mentioned ,  then the Bible would have to be read in a whole different light of interpretation.   

If we look at the preceding verse and the following verse then it cannot be the elect he is referring to.

 

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

 

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

To be honest, I did not take the time to check the context (shame on me), and now, without knowing what I am getting into, I shall have a peek, but at a broader context, not just one verse before and after:

 15‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 17‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. 20‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

Ah, OK, to a church, this is addressed, not to those who even claim to be believers, so this would seem not to be addressed to those who by their own claims, would even be among the elect, this is either to true believers, or to tares, counterfeit Christians.

He tells them that they have no love, no zeal for Him, lukewarm! They see themselves as self sufficient, lacking nothing, not needing God. He points out, that they are self decieved, and very needy, so this is a very scathing, critical letter. He warns them to clean up their act, to be zealous and repent, and tells them that He deals harshly, with those He loves.

I am inclined to think then, that He is addresing them as believers, who have fallen into pride, but, that they need to act like believers - perhaps as Paul said to the Philippians:

 12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. 

There is a story, I forget who the players were, but it was supposedly a true story, where some Christian leaders were attending a conference, and one of the speakers there, was getting into an elevator as was also one of the other attendees. In the elevator, the second man said to the first:

"Dr. So-and-so, are you a Calvinist or an Arminian?"

He thought for a short moment, and said:

"I am a Calvinist, who sweats!"

The point of me bringing this to the table, is that in Calvinism, it is believed that believers, are eternally secure, that those who are not Christs, will be lost. The so called 'once saved, always saved'.

A problem arises though, in knowing who is saved, and who is not. How does one know, if one is of the elect or not. Does a tare, know that He is a tare? Is He a person, who prays, goes to church, reads the Bible, and is generally a good and moral person, etc. A person who seems to be bearing fruit, evidence that accompanies salvation.

Calvinists also generally hold to the idea of what is called, the perseverance of the saints, that those who are His, will finish the course, will die in belief.

This is the notion expressed in such verses as this one, from Matt 25:

 9“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11“Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

That is the final test, that is when we know for certain, that we are the elect, when we die, having stayed the course. Really though, it is when we hear the words:

‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’

That is from Matt 25, part of the same discourse as Matt 24 that we just looked at.

There is another passage in Matthew, that ought to make us sweat a little, in Matt 7:

15“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.16“You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?17“So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20“So then, you will know them by their fruits.

      21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM MEYOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Now, there is an eye opener. These people have done things I never have, I have not prophesied, I have not cast out demons, I have not performed miracles! We can examine fruit, but God examines the heart!

Jesus, did not deny that they had done these things, he merely said, that He never knew them. Knowledge, it the context of many Bible verses, speaks to intimacy, to relationship. I believe that is what is being spoken to here. They did all of these noteworthy things, but they did not have a relationship to Jesus. 

Clearly, Jesus knew of them, He was not ignorant of their existence or their works. Knowing about people, is different than knowing people in an intimate relationship.

In Jer 1:5 there is this:

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

There we can see, and example, of God, knowing people, before they are even concieved, and having set them aside, for His purposes. This is not the only example in the Bible of this, but it serves to illustrate the purpose, that God chooses people, before they can choose Him, He has a purpose for them, before they exist. However, this is not true for all people that they are chosen to be His servant.

A friend once said to me, that a friend of hers asked her: "How do you get to be chosen?"

I was not remotely a Calvinist at that time, but I was aware of the fact that there were verses that spoke to election, to the chosen, etc. I responded to her truthfully, I gave the eloquent answer of:

"I don't know!"

That question though, has been on my mind for years. However, as a Calvinist (I still hate that,  label) my answer to the question of 'How do I get to be chosen', is "You cannot get to be chosen, it is God who chooses, based on His good pleasure and will. All you can do, is discover if you are. If you find yourself, drawn to Jesus, and you accept His call, and you live your life obeying Him and loving Him, then chances are, you are chosen."

Let's see, how far off the track have I become here . . . 

OK, pretty far, lol. Rev 3 and the "IF". I think the if holds, in context. Those who are chosen, are that category of those who will come to Him. So, If they hear and respond, they will obey, and have fellowship with God, if not, they won't.

Rev 3 is then, I think, a warning to those who are believers, to prove (test) their salvation, to live it out, with fear and trembling, not to be so self assured in their faith, and be deceived in their pride. That same passage which we looked at, where the master said "well done, good and faithful slave' also said to one:

 24“And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. 25‘And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’

      26“But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27‘Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28‘Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’

      29“For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30“Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So, which servant are we, the faithful saved one, or the wicked lazy one, destined to outer darkness?

Sobering!

Sorry, but if there is a gift of succintness, I do not have it.

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22 hours ago, warrior12 said:

 

When you said "satan fathered lie " i deliberately said you said created as it could be seen as that too.  Please don't see my reply earlier as putting words in your mouth, but i just wanted to grasp the idea of the creation of sin or the invention of it.  If God did not created it and satan did not it just cannot just exist as an object. The question still remains, how did get it's genesis and how did perfection turn to wickedness by pride .  What i am trying to see here, is those attributes did not suppose to be around in the presence of perfection, which seemed to exist before satan's fall.  Thanks enoob57 for your patience. 

Quote

When you said "satan fathered lie " i deliberately said you said created as it could be seen as that too.  Please don't see my reply earlier as putting words in your mouth, but i just wanted to grasp the idea of the creation of sin or the invention of it.

In communicating with one another our own definitions and understanding come into play and can make things very difficult in arriving at an understanding in unity... God's written Word 'IS' a perfect unity yet must be viewed as a possession of Being 'The Living Word' in conjunction with The Holy Spirit~ that which is written leads us to the Living Christ of God and Person to person we are born into His Way, Life and Truth... fathered in Scripture is merely taking what is given us and passing it on... it is an obedience to the creative act of a one time event in Adam. Hence God The Father 'IS' the only True Father and the rest of us males producing in that creative act are reflections of that One Time Event... Why this is important to this quote is understanding that reality in the infinite of God is controlled or moreover Being of God and what 'IS' is all there 'IS' and totally dependent upon God Who 'IS' ... now we get to being -> Lucifer was worship director at the place where God allowed Himself to be focused upon in His infinite of Being. His (Lucifer) design was to enhance, to the created of God 'the angels/sons of God' messengers and servants of God to mankind, the worship and glorying in God before them... all Lucifer's abilities in being were to be given back to God in worship but the very nature of such was to bring attention to Lucifer in the created realities- then to this purpose Lucifer yielding all he was back to God for the enhancement of God Himself for all to see present. The angels observed Lucifer's position- they, (angles), at the place of service and worship before the throne and Lucifer 'The position of covering cherub above the throne'. They observed the beauty of his being so made by God. His ability in music built directly into/for his person spoken of by timbrel/tabrets and harp/pipes. God refers this to the multitude of his trade/gifted purpose... as designed to be noticed so this notice before the throne gave Lucifer notice to self in design as well- no harm no foul to observe that which 'IS'... BUT in taking his eyes off of the purpose 'God's Glorifying' and placing them upon the created object itself in glorifying in the object itself was separate from God in purpose-> idolatry began... his desire turned from the only purpose for his being to Glorify God and turn to glorify self... He being dependent upon God for being now turned to perversion of truth and claimed the right of self existent one -god- this being ridiculous for all that have began know so by the very fact itself-> it is a self evident truth and the lie became necessary past this point... all we born of God understand our purpose is for God's use and Glory and the fleshy first born part wars against us in this terribly! However, we must reckon >this influence of that which begins needs to be served< rather than the right of serving that which has no begin... a death of the first for life of the second! Lie will not continue, and needs be placed in the reckoning of the eternal wrath of God called hell the only place that it has created by God... so to give sin and it's perversion of begin in Lucifer any place in the creation of God 'IS' error! When I was born again by The Power of God Himself in His Creative Action by The Holy Spirit I became His again to serve Him and give Him Glory this the eternal purpose because frankly there exist no other in which to do so in worship....  

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5 hours ago, enoob57 said:

In communicating with one another our own definitions and understanding come into play and can make things very difficult in arriving at an understanding in unity... God's written Word 'IS' a perfect unity yet must be viewed as a possession of Being 'The Living Word' in conjunction with The Holy Spirit~ that which is written leads us to the Living Christ of God and Person to person we are born into His Way, Life and Truth... fathered in Scripture is merely taking what is given us and passing it on... it is an obedience to the creative act of a one time event in Adam.

Hence God The Father 'IS' the only True Father and the rest of us males producing in that creative act are reflections of that One Time Event... Why this is important to this quote is understanding that reality in the infinite of God is controlled or moreover Being of God and what 'IS' is all there 'IS' and totally dependent upon God Who 'IS' ... now we get to being -> Lucifer was worship director at the place where God allowed Himself to be focused upon in His infinite of Being. His (Lucifer) design was to enhance, to the created of God 'the angels/sons of God' messengers and servants of God to mankind, the worship and glorying in God before them... all

Lucifer's abilities in being were to be given back to God in worship but the very nature of such was to bring attention to Lucifer in the created realities- then to this purpose Lucifer yielding all he was back to God for the enhancement of God Himself for all to see present. The angels observed Lucifer's position- they, (angles), at the place of service and worship before the throne and Lucifer 'The position of covering cherub above the throne'. They observed the beauty of his being so made by God. His ability in music built directly into/for his person spoken of by timbrel/tabrets and harp/pipes. God refers this to the multitude of his trade/gifted purpose... as designed to be noticed so this notice before the throne gave Lucifer notice to self in design as well- no harm no foul to observe that which 'IS'... BUT in taking his eyes off of the purpose 'God's Glorifying' and placing them

upon the created object itself in glorifying in the object itself was separate from God in purpose-> idolatry began... his desire turned from the only purpose for his being to Glorify God and turn to glorify self... He being dependent upon God for being now turned to perversion of truth and claimed the right of self existent one -god- this being ridiculous for all that have began know so by the very fact itself-> it is a self evident truth and the lie became necessary past this point... all we born of God understand our purpose is for God's use and Glory and the fleshy first born part wars against us in this terribly! However, we must reckon >this influence of that which begins needs to be served< rather than the right of serving that which has no begin... a death of the first for life of the second! Lie will not continue, and needs be placed in the reckoning of the eternal wrath of God

called hell the only place that it has created by God... so to give sin and it's perversion of begin in Lucifer any place in the creation of God 'IS' error! When I was born again by The Power of God Himself in His Creative Action by The Holy Spirit I became His again to serve Him and give Him Glory this the eternal purpose because frankly there exist no other in which to do so in worship....  

So let's see here. With Adam and Eve, there was a tempter to sway or persuade them into following a lie even in the midst of a perfected garden. But a law or warning was given to them to not commit or eat of that specific tree.

Now we have satan, with no one to persuade him and on his own volition he made a decision in a time when there is no sin known or in existence.   Satan ability to think the way he did must or i imagine must have come from some laws that were in place and was known to him just like Adam and Eve had their instructions and restriction.  This is not stated in scripture as far as i know, but Satan to come to that prideful state and rebel could not just come out of thin air.   Thus, i am thinking and as i said before, God told us as much as we need to know and i have come to conclusions that there are things that the Lord does not want us know for his sovereign reasons.  

I have some deeper thoughts about this, but i would rest here as it can go places where some would feel uncomfortable.   

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Overly simplistic example of free will / limited human sovereignty. 

Gold fish in a bowl.

We didn't create the fish or the bowl so there's a lot wrong with this example.

Like most of us not loving the gold fish like God loves us. But moving on...

The fish can swim anywhere any time it wants within the confines of the fish bowl.

It can eat or not eat.

There are times it is taken by net from the bowl to clean the bowl.

Eventually the fish will die.

Has the owner of the fish surrendered sovereignty to the fish?

Had the owner of the fish lost some of their own nature for the fish having its limited amount of sovereignty?

Principles to project to humanity and God and to think about.

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On 7/18/2017 at 4:43 PM, Cletus said:

I really dont see how your point is valid that it was before sin.  Why did God put it there if man was not to eat of it?  God gave a choice then.  Yeah, at one point no one had to die, but there was a choice. 

Yes, that actually IS my point, THEY had a choice! That is what was different.

I think you may be over thinking what I said, or not understanding my point. The point is valid as the point was made, that there is a difference. Adam and Eve were not created as sinful beings, who were unable to please God.

The Bible is EXTREMELY clear, that this does not describe the rest of us. We are unable to choose God, as the degenerates that we are. We have to be regenerated, born again, before we can escape or slavery to sin.

Slaves, can make choices, and we are slaves. I don't think we would say, that slaves really have free will, because their options are limited

All people are slaves, ALL people.

 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin.

 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

Adam and Eve, for a time were sin free, there were not created as sinners by nature. Mankind since, is in a different boat. We are sinners by nature, unable to please God. We are naturally rebellious, so we need a new nature - the the necessity of being born again.

While we are not totally free of our old nature in terms of temptations to disobey (that still exists - Adam and Eve were tempted, so was Jesus in fact) our new nature gives us and ability to say "no" to that temptation, even though we do fail. 

Two marvelous differences for the chosen:

1. We can say "no", can resist, can escape (1 Cor 10:13)

2. When we fail, we have an advocate (Jesus) who not only pleads our case, but also pays our fine, so that we are judged innocent, having His righteousness given to us, in spite of ourselves.

We receive this by grace, through faith, it is the gift of God, and that should motive worship and thankfulness, and motivation to get the message out to other, as this is the method that God has chosen to bring the good new to other, so that they might believe what He has said, once He gives then the faith and understanding and the ability, to choose Him, to escape their former slavery.

Note to those reading:

That response was not so much to Cletus, even though his post prompted the reply. The post was made for all who read it, that they might better understand our condition and the solution, as members of fallen mankind.

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I had not been to this thread, since the middle of July, four months ago. I just ran across it again, while looking for something else. I re-read every post that was made, and I found myself really impressed again, by those who posted in it, with such maturity, self control, and insight.

The thread started when I made a short comment, on my thoughts on free will, nothing that profound or interesting, but the responses people contributed, made it (in my opinion) one of the better threads on Worthy on such a theologically controversial topic. If there were a book I knew of, that was a collection of dialogues as good as this, I would buy it and read it.

So, again, I want to express my sincere thanks to those who made the thread, what it became.

THANK YOU!

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God is able to change circumstances that shape our opinion as well as our hearts, break down prejudices and enlighten us by His Spirit.  

 Phl 2:12  Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;  Phl 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.  

So while we freely choose, it is by God's design.  On the other hand, we are free in spite of this to resist the call of the Holy Spirit, just as the Jews always did when they stoned. the prophets.  For many are called but few are chosen.  

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I breathe. God's programming. If I cut, I bleed. God's program again. There are gazillions of autonomous responses that I do mostly without conscious thought. Some I have a certain leeway with. I can chose to eat and drink when my programmed need arises. If I do not do this I die. Also a pre-programmed part of me.

Satan fell. God knew this so warned Adam in a rather obscure way, but Adam would have known this since he was told NOT to eat of the tree. Adam passed on the info to Eve, who maybe did not quite 'get it'.
Satan deceived Eve and Eve gave to Adam (who knew what he was doing). They sinned.

Was God taken by surprise? Not at all. Because, "He died for us from before the foundation of the world".

1 Peter 1:18-20 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 

1 Corinthians 2:7-10 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" -- 10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

 2 Corinthians 5:16ff. Jesus’ death and resurrection is described as an act of reconciliation which is a relational term - “God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them”. (2 Cor 5:19). Moreover it was a universal act for all people - the whole world.  Rom 5:1-11 talks about Jesus death as being an act of love for us sinners so that we might be reconciled to him. Likewise in John 3:16 God gives his son that whoever believes in him shall have eternal life. That is this eternal life is available to everyone who believes in Jesus.

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On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 12:24 PM, warrior12 said:

So let's see here. With Adam and Eve, there was a tempter to sway or persuade them into following a lie even in the midst of a perfected garden. But a law or warning was given to them to not commit or eat of that specific tree.

Now we have satan, with no one to persuade him and on his own volition he made a decision in a time when there is no sin known or in existence.   Satan ability to think the way he did must or i imagine must have come from some laws that were in place and was known to him just like Adam and Eve had their instructions and restriction.  This is not stated in scripture as far as i know, but Satan to come to that prideful state and rebel could not just come out of thin air.   Thus, i am thinking and as i said before, God told us as much as we need to know and i have come to conclusions that there are things that the Lord does not want us know for his sovereign reasons.  

I have some deeper thoughts about this, but i would rest here as it can go places where some would feel uncomfortable.   

What you think ? I prefer what God says

Isaiah 14:13 (KJV)

[13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

[14] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.  

[15] Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

note the self assertion of his will, a will that began by created realities, that he was using over 'The Will' that was never created... this was the first error or begin of lie formed within himself that this could even be possible... this is why God says we are not to give place to him 

John 8:37 (KJV)

[37] I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Ephesians 4:27 (KJV)

[27] Neither give place to the devil.

The problem your making is that God could not create such a creature with this ability and not be implicated with it! It is a way the created try to encompass God with their own abilities... Yet God has said it came out of Him by choice of his own will

Ezekiel 28:15 (KJV)

[15] Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

[16] By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

[17] Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

[18] Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

[19] All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

As the witness of God stands Lucifer was perfect in all his ways till sin was found within him.... the I wills above...
 

You see in this reasoning we either agree with God that his created being was perfect or we call God a liar...or worse we make sin a necessary thing in God's purposes! And this certainly would be a convoluted reasoning of the creature and not of God...  In Lucifer rebelling against his own perfection he asserted that which cannot be as though it were because he willed not to be as God had created him to be... that which is not and claims to be is what?
Love, Steven 

 

 

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