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What is free will really, what does it mean to have free will?


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19 hours ago, hmbld said:

John 6:44 No man can come to Me unless the Father who hath sent Me draw him; and I will raise him up at the Last Day.

"can" does not mean "will".  This seems to indicate there is still a choice after being drawn?

New Feature - HEAR me answer the question
 

The "can", speaks to ability, no one is even able to come to God. Paul, in the book of Romans, sums up the condition of fallen mankind when he quotes the Old Testament:

10 as it is written,
            “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

      11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
            THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

      12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
            THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
            THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

That is not vague language "none", "not even one", "none who understands", "none who seeks for God", "all have turned aside", "none who does good", "there is not even one"

So, in essense, if there is a choice there, not one single person made it! Not one!

If not even one did or does, there is a huge problem, EVERYONE rejects God, EVERYONE! As I said this is not vague language! Look in that short passage, the point is made at least 7 times, in 3 verses!

The disciples seem to be catching on to this, when Jesus addressed the rich young ruler. You will recall, that the young man asked Jesus what he must do to be saved. Jesus said "keep the commandments"! The ruler asked: "which ones?" Jesus gave him a list. The man said it essence: "I have done all that since my youth"! "Jesus said, then sell your things, give to the poor, and follow me!"

Here we had, apparently, a very good man it seems, who never-the-less, had doubts about his own eternal security. He probably knew he was doing pretty good, trying hard. Still knew somehow, that he lacked. Jesus made him confront his sin, his wealth was more important to him that following Jesus to eternal life was. It is a sad story, but, it is the story of all mankind, no one seeks God, not even one.

The diciples were astonished, and realized how desperatly in peril we are, so they asked:

"Who then can be saved?"  Jesus hit the nail squarely on the head, and said "with man, it is impossble". Why is it impossible? Because man cannot choose God, it is impossible for him to do so.

There are two conditions, either a person is a lost sinner, or they are perfect. No one is perfect, so all are lost. That, is the natural man's condition after the sin in the garden. On our own, we are hopeless, unable to choose God, a slave to sin. We can try, but we fail. There is no shade of gray, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 

If it requires perfection, than aren't we still lost? No, not if we have faith in Jesus. By faith, we are justified. Justified, means that we get credit. As someone said, justified, is "just as if I'd" not sinned. Jesus transfers His sinlessness to us, it is put in our account. This is the great exchange:

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. - 2 Cor 2:21

On our own we are hopeless, but, we are not without hope, because we are not on our own. Our hope is built on nothing less than  Jesus' blood and righteousness, as the hymn says.

Since we are impossibly lost, left to ourselves, Jesus answered the diciples' question, in two parts:

"with man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible!"

That reflects back to what we already touched on:

John 6:44 No man can come to Me unless the Father who hath sent Me draw him; and I will raise him up at the Last Day.

So, yes, no one can, and therefore no one does, come to Jesus, unless the Father draws that person. Then the great thing happens, things go from impossible to certainty. The certainty is contained in the clause, "I will raise him up".

Isn't that wonderful, "I will raise him up!" Not "I might raise him up", not "I will raise him up if".

Now, what is debatable there is the question of: "will all who the Father draws come, or is it just that all that the Father calls are then able to come?"

Either way, the sequence is the same. People come only AFTER the Father draws, before that they cannot. This takes our part of our salvation out of the picture. We do not chose God until God first, chooses us. God is the husband in this relationship. We the bride, do not accept until He proposes, and He propose to those He has chosen. Those He chose, He chose before the foundation of the world, before we were ever able to do anything nor have any say in the matter.  (Eph 1:4)

So, free will? Yeah, we have it, in a sense, at least the chosen do, but unless a person is among the chosen, their will is captive to sin. We are slaves to sin, apart from the new birth, and then we are slaves to God. We are all slaves, and to slaves really have free will?  I suppose we have free will as much as any slave does.

This is why I ask the question about free will, what is it really do we really ever have it, after all, in Romans 6:22 we see:

But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 

I love what I have come to believe in this area. I have loved God from the day I realized that He saved me. I reached out to Him, and He responded. That is how I saw it. Then, I read the Bible, years and years, then realized, I did not choose Him, He chose me to choose Him, and before that, He sought me to seek Him, and yet, is was all determined before the foundation of the world.

God knew this was going to happen, and whatever God knows will happen, does happen, without exception.

Realizing this, has made me come ot appreciate Him even more. Now that I realize that I did not choose Him, it means that I can take no credit for my salvation, none at all, it is all Him. When I thought that I had a say in it, I was sharing some of His glory, as it I had some merit, some wisdom or goodness that had led me to choose to follow Him.

I now get, that I am a total sinner, apart from God, I was even His enemy. That makes what He did for me, even more glorious, and makes me appreciate Him even more than I did. I had no free will, my will was enslaved, not free at all, but it became freed to switch allegiance from a master to the Master.

Sorry, I did not mean to sermonize, it just sort of free flowed out of my pea brain in response to the subtleties of your question hmbld. Speaking of which, did I answer it, or miss the point entirely?

 

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18 hours ago, hmbld said:

John 6:44 No man can come to Me unless the Father who hath sent Me draw him; and I will raise him up at the Last Day.

"can" does not mean "will".  This seems to indicate there is still a choice after being drawn?

Does it? Can, indicates permitted to, able to. No man is permitted to come to Me unless the Father who hath sent Me draw him.

No man is able to come to Me unless the Father who hath sent Me draw him.

It seems then that the capacity to come to Christ is determined by the Father first.

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2 hours ago, WalkingMyFishLikeABoss said:

Does it? Can, indicates permitted to, able to. No man is permitted to come to Me unless the Father who hath sent Me draw him.

No man is able to come to Me unless the Father who hath sent Me draw him.

It seems then that the capacity to come to Christ is determined by the Father first.

Yes!

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3 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

New Feature - HEAR me answer the question
 

Sorry, I did not mean to sermonize, it just sort of free flowed out of my pea brain in response to the subtleties of your question hmbld. Speaking of which, did I answer it, or miss the point entirely?

 

We talked briefly about this a while ago, and I agree, I think, with everything you stated here, until nearly the end anyway, however, you backed up farther than the point in my mind that I started, only I failed to state where I am starting!  

2 Peter 3:9  

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 

Now, this states that God does not desire any should perish, which I take to mean He draws all, but that is not explicitly stated.  So, either I am wrong, or He draws all, and at this point, it is all Him, none can choose unless He draws them, but then they may choose or has the choice been made for them? I muddled that up but its the best I got right now!

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John 12:32 (KJV)

[32] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Revelation 22:17 (KJV)

[17] And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

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On 7/11/2017 at 4:14 PM, hmbld said:

We talked briefly about this a while ago, and I agree, I think, with everything you stated here, until nearly the end anyway, however, you backed up farther than the point in my mind that I started, only I failed to state where I am starting!  

2 Peter 3:9  

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 

Now, this states that God does not desire any should perish, which I take to mean He draws all, but that is not explicitly stated.  So, either I am wrong, or He draws all, and at this point, it is all Him, none can choose unless He draws them, but then they may choose or has the choice been made for them? I muddled that up but its the best I got right now!

Well hmbld, thanks again for responding, I think I understand why you think you might have muddled it a little, but I think you did fine, and I think I understand what you are saying. So, in responding to what I think you are saying, I will say this:

I have a peculiar way of examining scripture. I do not go looking for a verse to support a postion, I have rules that I follow. The rules may not be right, but they are my rules, lol.

One rule is, if verses appear to contradict each other, then I am misunderstanding one or both verses, otherwise God is a God of confusion. Now, there are times, when yes, actually He is, He confounds understanding,

He confuses, He hardens hearts, He sends delusion. He speaks in parables, so that people will NOT understand, etc. However, God is not out to confuse those He has chosen, though some of them can be confused anyway. Such is the nature of imperfect minds.

So, one of the rules that I follow, that also helps with the above facts, is always read scripture in it's context. Who is being spoken to? What is the subject? Etc.

In the context of 2 Peter 3:9, the subject is NOT salvation, it is the 2nd coming of Christ. The people being spoken to, are not just anyone, they are believers. Bring those ideas along for the ride as you think about 2 Pet 3:9.

He is coming again, and Peter is informing believers that in the last days, there will be scoffers, and that time does not have the same meaning to God as it does to us. One day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a day. So, the idea of of soon coming is true, but soon in the Lord's view, might seem delayed to men.

It appears Peter was right on that point, since it appears that even the apostles seem to have expected that Jesus might return in their lifetimes, but that has been almost 2000 years so far. Point taken Peter, some of us get that!

The people that Peter is speaking to, are not the mockers, but to the beloved, not to the world. If a person is speaking to an audience, about things that concern them, the person might refer to all. "There will be refreshments after the meeting, and all are welcome".

Would that mean that 7.5 billion people are invited? Or is it likely that "all" is a limited amount?

God is all powerful, and if He really desires all to be saved, then all will be saved. However, this is not saying that salvation is universal, we know that from other passages. We know that few will enter the narrow gate. We see that over and over and over again. It cannot be missed.

In John 10, Jesus plainly says, that people do not believe, because they are not His sheep, and that His sheep, are secure:

24 The Jews therefore gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these bear witness of Me. 26 “But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. 27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. 29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 “I and the Father are one.” 

Notice there also, that the sheep did not choose to belong to Jesus. Jesus said in verse 29, that the Father gave the sheep to Jesus.

As I see 2 Pet 3:9 personally, we have two choices. One choice is all means everyone everywhere, the other is that all means all of a limited group.

If it means all people, then we have a God, who cannot accomplish His own will. I do not find that concept in scripture. Either He chose all, and lost some, of He chose some, and lost none of them.

To me, the idea that He chose some and lost none of them is consistant and compatible with all scripture.

I can pick a few verses here and there, and make the case that God does not choose, God allows people free will, and other ideas, but I cannot make those ideas compatible with scripture in other areas. I have to side with the majority of verse that are clear, in context and oddly, compatible with what people call "Calvinism", or I can cherry pick a few vague verses, out of context, and contradictory to other verses, and deny what Paul and Jesus said. In an effort to do that, I can find verses that seem to say, that possibly God chose people based on something other than His own choice, pleasure and will, but I cannot do that with any verse that cannot be understood another way.

All verses either harmonize, or they are misunderstood, in my opinion.

Looking again at the 1 day=1000 years part of 2 Peter, remember that the context is to Christians. With that in mind what does Peter say is the reason that God delays . . . "He is patient toward you", the text says, not that He is patient toward everyone in the world.

From what I have said here, is it not fair to say, that 2 Pet 3:9, has too much wiggle room to make a proof text for the idea that God really desires everyone to come to repentance? I not only do not think it requires that, but I think that understanding makes it conflict with other passages, and so, that understanding should (in my opinion)  be rejected.

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On 7/11/2017 at 1:41 PM, WalkingMyFishLikeABoss said:

Does it? Can, indicates permitted to, able to. No man is permitted to come to Me unless the Father who hath sent Me draw him.

Hmm, I thought, that is an interesting take I never thought of. "No man is permitted to . . . "

Had to look to the Greek to see is that could be a way to understand it. Does not make a difference one way or the other, for point I was addressing, as the sequence is that the Father still has to do His part, before a person can come to Jesus.

Never-the-less, the word is  δύναται,  dunatai

which speaks to that power to do something, not the permission to do something. However, I suppose God does not empower people to act in ways he does not permit, lol. If He gives the power to someone to consume another with fire, we can assume He has also granted permission.

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On 7/11/2017 at 9:54 PM, enoob57 said:

John 12:32 (KJV)

[32] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Revelation 22:17 (KJV)

[17] And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

That verse, John 12:32 (KJV)[32] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

And 1 Timothy 4:10, That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
 

Seems to speak to what is known as Universal salvation.

While other verses as we've discussed tell us no one is saved unless God calls them to be.

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48 minutes ago, WalkingMyFishLikeABoss said:

That verse, John 12:32 (KJV)[32] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

And 1 Timothy 4:10, That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
 

Seems to speak to what is known as Universal salvation.

While other verses as we've discussed tell us no one is saved unless God calls them to be.

human responsibility cannot be denied as Scripture indicates it in many many passages... God initial use of foreknowledge (undefined within Scripture) is the basis for election God does... I wait for God to increase me to understand these great truths when I get home!

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17 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

human responsibility cannot be denied as Scripture indicates it in many many passages... God initial use of foreknowledge (undefined within Scripture) is the basis for election God does... I wait for God to increase me to understand these great truths when I get home!

I would agree we have to assume responsibility for our actions. However, God's omniscience, and predeterminism, predestination of all things , to me seems as if we're stepping in footprints throughout our life that God has already set down. And how we respond is the test.

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