What is free will really, what does it mean to have free will?

[Omegaman 3.0]

Part Two - Understanding the T.U.L.I.P.

This is continuation of my previous post that was getting way too lengthy. This post is off the tract of what the subject of the thread is, that being free will. It got diverted or derailed, into the topic of pet doctrinal positions that some hold, as though the systems are what we go by, instead of going by scripture.

My original premise in the thread was simple, and I should have monitored the thread more carefully, and kept it focused. The actual topic is what do you think about the following:

You are free to choose to do what you want to do,
but you are not free to choose what it is, that you want to do,
nor are you necessarily able, to do what you choose to do!

Feel free to expand upon, agree with, or refute those ideas, that is what the thread is actually about. It is not about Calvinism and Arminianism, those topic already have threads devoted to them and I do not think we need others.

However, since is was not paying close attention to what was happening here, it morphed into that, to a certain degree. In response, as I looked over sections of the thread, I realized that a lot of what was being said, might be going over the heads of some who are reading or will come to read, this thread.

While I would rather keep this thread free of posts which seek to promote agendas of specific systems of belief, I am going to finish my comments/explanations of what the "5 points" are about, so that others who may not know, can better understand some thing which have been said in this thread.

As Donald Gray Barnhouse said: "get the hay down out of the loft, onto the barn floor, where the cows can get at it". So, while I am adding some complexity to the thread, this is intended to fill in some blanks that might be in the minds of some readers.

The T.U.L.I.P.

Total Depravity 
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement 
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints

Total Depravity

Total depravity, may sound like like there is no good in mankind, but that is not what it is referring to. It does not mean we are totally depraved. Likely, even people such as Adolph Hitler, was not totally evil, perhaps he once gave flowers to his mistress, or wished his mother  a happy birthday. Total depravity just means that we are affected totally by sin, and lack the ability to save ourselves etc.

“The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it? Jer 17:9

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. “All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.” Mark 7:21-23

For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. Rom 5:20

as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.” Rom 3:10-12

This is the point of Total Depravity, we are touched by original sin, and we compound that with our own sin, and since we are blind, deaf, hard hearted, spiritually dead slaves to sin, we will not, do not, and cannot repent, seek God nor understand him, thus, we are totally depraved and need the salvation that only God can give us, through the new birth.

Unconditional Election

The idea here, is that we are not informed of any condition in the person, that God bases election upon. We understand that God elects according to the kind intention of his will, not because our our qualities or what He foresees about us.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will Eph 1:3-5

Limited Atonement

The idea here, is that while Jesus death on the cross, is sufficient payment for the sins of the world, it does not effectively procure forgiveness of the sins of all, but is limited only to the elect, His chosen, whose sins He bore. That one is not difficult to see for most people, though it might be unpleasant to believe. It would be nice to think that Jesus paid for and saved everyone, but that is not was scripture teaches:

And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.  Matt 26:27-28

Who are the sheep, if not the ones who follow the Shepherd:

"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." John 10:11

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 “Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 “I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; John 17:6-9

That one, verse 9, I think is especially pointed, notice He does not ask on behalf of the world, but ONLY on those that the Father gave Him. Certainly then, the atonement is limited.

Irresistible Grace

The idea of that one, is that God that the elect, those whom God has chosen to be His, cannot resist His grace. When God choose people and gives them a new nature, and new ability to see, hear, understand, desire Him, free them from the captivity they have to their carnal nature, the cannot resist. Really, that makes perfect sense, as they have no reason to resist. Who once understanding what God is offering, and wanting what He is offering could resist? Who would say: "No thanks God, I do not want eternal life with you where you are, I would rather die in my sin, and spend eternity, where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth in outer darkness. That is no more likely that a hungry, malnourished person, refusing food for nor good reason, such a person would be insane, not possessing a right mind.

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” John 6:29

Notice that belief, is the work of God, we do not drum it up by our will, faith is given to us by God

When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48

Who believed? Those who were APPOINTED to eternal life. This speaks not only of their reacting to God grace, but they were predestined to do so.

“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," John 6:37

If the Father gives them to Jesus, and all of them every single one comes to Jesus, it is almost a moot point if grace is irresistible or not, since 100% of those chosen DO come.

Perseverance of the Saints

This is just a declaration, that the saints, those set apart and chosen by God, will persist and not turn away. They might have lapses, but they will remained saved forever, the cannot lose salvation. I wish more true Christians understood this. Not understanding that, lead to worry, fear, anxiety, even despair. It is so unnecessary I understand what they are going through, for I have been there, was there for the first 12 years of my Christian life, before God showed me personally, that I was His. What a waste, if I had only read the Bible and believed it, I would have been much better off, experiencing the joy and gratitude that God intends for His children. Again, thank you Jesus!

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. Phil 1:6

27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. John 10:27-29

Now, some want to say, that it doesn't say the the person cannot choose to walk away. Seriously, don't even go there. We do not base our understanding on what a verse does not say, but what it does say. It Does say that no one can snatch the person away, not no one except the person themselves.

47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. John 6:47

That one is good, and if it is not self evident, let me point out what I see there. Two really important words. The words are "has" and "eternal". If a person is a believer, the he/she already has eternal life, it is a done deal, not a future prediction. Believers already have eternal life. Eternal, means without end. I a person has it, and it is without end, then, it is without end. If it is lost, then it was not eternal, was it?

Some would say, but . . .  we see believer from time to time, turn their back on the church/Jesus, so surely they are lost. no, not according to the Bible, as we have seen. First, we do not know what is in the heart of the person, only God knows that, and it is possible, that even in the last microseconds of their life, the returned to Him. Also, there is the distinct possibility, that they were never saved, no matter how it might have appeared to us, judging from the outside.

19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.  1 John 2:19

Now, that was just a partial list of verses and a crude explanation of the five petals of the T.U.L.I.P. I hope it was instructing, and perhaps even enlightening and enjoyable. I pray that the Lord will have His way with you, and have you come to believe what He wants you to know and understand, and that if I have made any errors here, that you will be discerning and reject them, and that He will show my my errors.

Now, I would like to say, that I am not trying to defend the TULIP, that is just a creation of man. However, the verses posted are from God, not from me nor Calvinists, or Calvin, Luther, or the other reformers. The Bible says what it says, and means what is say. It is up to to prayerfully consider, if it says what I am representing it to say.

Do I believe the doctrines in the TULIP? I suppose I do, or if I do not, something close to them. One thing I do know, is that I am not able to refute them with scripture. At the risk of repeating myself, I do not believe as I do, because it is part of some doctrine of men, I just see these things as what Jesus that the writers  of the New Testament has to say, and I can not do otherwise. Thank you for bearing with me.

[Omegaman 3.0]

Now, can we maybe get back to the actual topic of free will and what that means and implies? Thanks!

[Omegaman 3.0]

Well, it has been 5 days since my last post, and no responses, good, maybe it has run it's course. 

[Omegaman 3.0]

Wow, it is very interesting to discover a post you started, that just ran out of steam suddenly years ago, makes me giggle!

[Leonardo Von]

Quote

What is free will really, what does it mean to have free will?

Nobody is free. Instead, each one is slave of the sin:

• Rom 3:9 -> "What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;".