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On 7/13/2017 at 8:41 PM, HAZARD said:

God forgives all sins past when confessed. He cannot forgive self murder after the fact.

So you believe that a person who commits suicide cannot be forgiven at all?  Perhaps a person commits suicide and doesn't die a quick death and while waiting to die the person begins to be sorrowful during that time period and asks for forgiveness.  But still the person dies as a result of suicide by his own hand.  No one can really see what goes on within the heart of another except by God the judge of us all, as He alone knows the secret intents of our hearts

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3 minutes ago, Openly Curious said:

So you believe that a person who commits suicide cannot be forgiven at all?  Perhaps a person commits suicide and doesn't die a quick death and while waiting to die the person begins to be sorrowful during that time period and asks for forgiveness.  But still the person dies as a result of suicide by his own hand.  No one can really see what goes on within the heart of another except by God the judge of us all, as He alone knows the secret intents of our hearts

What I believe is irrelevant. What God's Word says is to believed. I have given two cases where men have taken their own lives and God had their names removed from His book.

As for your thoughts on the matter, anyone who attempts to take their own life, say, slashes their wrist and lives, that's another story, they are alive and they can therefore repent.

Jump off a high cliff and repent on the way down is like robbing a bank and asking God for forgiveness while you do it.

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20 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said:

No, more like asking for forgiveness after the act, like while leaving the bank.

It depends upon the condition of the person's heart, not the "ticking clock" on the wall. All of us are slowly dying, so if what you said were true Hazard, none of us could ever repent.

We are all dying, as if we don't know this? We know we can can repent while ever we are alive. Try and repent after you have decided to commit  suicide, slash your wrists, or jump off a cliff, or in front of a speeding train, and while your life slips away rapidly or immediately and see how you go.

Murder is sin, suicide is self murder, God says;

Exodus 32:33, And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

If God means what He says when He says what he means, this sounds faily straight forward, cut and dried to me.

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20 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

What I believe is irrelevant. What God's Word says is to believed. I have given two cases where men have taken their own lives and God had their names removed from His book.

As for your thoughts on the matter, anyone who attempts to take their own life, say, slashes their wrist and lives, that's another story, they are alive and they can therefore repent.

Jump off a high cliff and repent on the way down is like robbing a bank and asking God for forgiveness while you do it.

What you believe is very "relevant".  Because it is what you are teaching others in your post.  If what you believe is irrelevant as you say that it is, then why are you putting so much effort in trying to prove what you are saying is the truth.  When it comes to the book of life there will be many who think their names are still in the book of life but will be shocked.  There are those in the world perhaps those in your stories may find their names are still in the book of life.  One thing I have learned through the years is that I am not a mind reader of the thoughts and intents that are in another persons heart.  I don't know every thought and therefore I am disqualified to judge those who do think of committing suicide nor to judge the souls of those who have committed suicide and died from it.  If you want to stand as a judge, jurer and prosecution of those who commit suicide without having all the facts.  It's possible you in return will be judged likewise in the same way by God.  I would caution that giving heed to one's own name being removed would be in order.

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19 hours ago, Openly Curious said:

What you believe is very "relevant".  Because it is what you are teaching others in your post.  If what you believe is irrelevant as you say that it is, then why are you putting so much effort in trying to prove what you are saying is the truth.  When it comes to the book of life there will be many who think their names are still in the book of life but will be shocked.  There are those in the world perhaps those in your stories may find their names are still in the book of life.  One thing I have learned through the years is that I am not a mind reader of the thoughts and intents that are in another persons heart.  I don't know every thought and therefore I am disqualified to judge those who do think of committing suicide nor to judge the souls of those who have committed suicide and died from it.  If you want to stand as a judge, jurer and prosecution of those who commit suicide without having all the facts.  It's possible you in return will be judged likewise in the same way by God.  I would caution that giving heed to one's own name being removed would be in order.

Now your twisting my words; You said;

So you believe that a person who commits suicide cannot be forgiven at all?  

I replied;

"What I believe is irrelevant. What God's Word says is to believed."

I see you only quoted part of my last post, why is that?, does the truth get in the way of your thoughts on the matter.

Why are you putting so much effort in trying to prove murderers go to Heaven?

"Murder is sin, suicide is self murder, God says;

Exodus 32:33, And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

If God means what He says when He says what he means, this sounds fairly straight forward, cut and dried to me."

You say, "One thing I have learned through the years is that I am not a mind reader of the thoughts and intents that are in another persons heart."

I never ever said I was a mind reader either. What I do say is, I can read God Word which clearly teaches, murder is sin, and that makes self murder a sin as well. I also gave two definite scriptures which show where men committed suicide and their names were blotted out of God's book. 

Rev 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and MURDERERS, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Can you show just one Scripture which says murderers will enter Heaven?

If you cannot handle the truth of the Word of God concerning murder, murderers, and self murder, and want to have the last word on this, go ahead.

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5 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Now your twisting my words; You said;

So you believe that a person who commits suicide cannot be forgiven at all?  

I replied;

"What I believe is irrelevant. What God's Word says is to believed."

I see you only quoted part of my last post, why is that?, does the truth get in the way of your thoughts on the matter.

Why are you putting so much effort in trying to prove murderers go to Heaven?

"Murder is sin, suicide is self murder, God says;

Exodus 32:33, And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

If God means what He says when He says what he means, this sounds fairly straight forward, cut and dried to me."

You say, "One thing I have learned through the years is that I am not a mind reader of the thoughts and intents that are in another persons heart."

I never ever said I was a mind reader either.  What I do say is, I can read God Word which clearly teaches, murder is sin, and that makes self murder a sin as well.  I also gave two definite scriptures which show where men committed suicide and their names were blotted out of God's book.  

Rev 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and MURDERERS, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Can you show just one Scripture which says murderers will enter Heaven?

If you cannot handle the truth of the Word of God concerning murder, murderers, and self murder, and want to have the last word on this, go ahead.

Thanks for the last word :laugh:  that was easy.  

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42 minutes ago, Openly Curious said:

Thanks for the last word :laugh:  that was easy.  

Your welcome  . . . . :laugh: . . . . :thumbsup:

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On 7/22/2017 at 0:36 AM, HAZARD said:

We are all dying, as if we don't know this? We know we can can repent while ever we are alive. Try and repent after you have decided to commit  suicide, slash your wrists, or jump off a cliff, or in front of a speeding train, and while your life slips away rapidly or immediately and see how you go.

Murder is sin, suicide is self murder, God says;

Exodus 32:33, And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

If God means what He says when He says what he means, this sounds faily straight forward, cut and dried to me.

It is interesting to note that your argument is from the old Covenant, that was given to Moses, I hope that you can see your error when you take the words of the old covenant that was between the people of the twelve tribes and their Lord, emphasis is given to their Lord. 

Not the Lord of the whole world, and you apply it as if it was a covenant between the Lord and the whole world.

Not in this covenant we have Moses as the Messiah between the twelve tribes and their Lord God. 

A covenant between the twelve tribes with Death in them and their Lord which was all about sins, and obedience, a covenant that does not give Life, and without a Heavenly inheritance. 

A covenant that does not have imputed righteousness and where sin does not bring death in the people with the Life in Jesus Christ.

This old covenant has nothing to do with the Believers of Jesus Christ who have imputed not only righteusness and imputed Life Everlasting, and are under the blood of Jesus Christ. 

As he is JESUS CHRIST so we are.

When we sin , JESUS CHRIST remains pure, our sins are not imputed to him, and him been the propitiation of our sins, by default he does not hold our sins against us, he Jesus Christ is our peace with God. 

Take it or live it. 

As a reddened by the blood of Jesus Christ , and having the Everlasting life, and still you want to live under the contemnation of those who were under the blood of the animals, go ahead and let the animals or the priest who offer the sacrifices be your Messiah between you and the Heavenly Father. 

Anyway the old Covenant did not provide access to the Heavenly Father , and the priest had nothing to do with him, they were not his Priests. 

That's why there is not inheritance of Life or Heavenly inheritance in the old. 

Never an ascenting inheritance at the time of Death only a descenting one, ask Samuel and perhaps David, and Abraham. 

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5 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

It is interesting to note that your argument is from the old Covenant, that was given to Moses, I hope that you can see your error when you take the words of the old covenant that was between the people of the twelve tribes and their Lord, emphasis is given to their Lord. 

Not the Lord of the whole world, and you apply it as if it was a covenant between the Lord and the whole world.

Not in this covenant we have Moses as the Messiah between the twelve tribes and their Lord God. 

A covenant between the twelve tribes with Death in them and their Lord which was all about sins, and obedience, a covenant that does not give Life, and without a Heavenly inheritance. 

A covenant that does not have imputed righteousness and where sin does not bring death in the people with the Life in Jesus Christ.

This old covenant has nothing to do with the Believers of Jesus Christ who have imputed not only righteusness and imputed Life Everlasting, and are under the blood of Jesus Christ. 

As he is JESUS CHRIST so we are.

When we sin , JESUS CHRIST remains pure, our sins are not imputed to him, and him been the propitiation of our sins, by default he does not hold our sins against us, he Jesus Christ is our peace with God. 

Take it or live it. 

As a reddened by the blood of Jesus Christ , and having the Everlasting life, and still you want to live under the contemnation of those who were under the blood of the animals, go ahead and let the animals or the priest who offer the sacrifices be your Messiah between you and the Heavenly Father. 

Anyway the old Covenant did not provide access to the Heavenly Father , and the priest had nothing to do with him, they were not his Priests. 

That's why there is not inheritance of Life or Heavenly inheritance in the old. 

Never an ascenting inheritance at the time of Death only a descenting one, ask Samuel and perhaps David, and Abraham. 

A New Testament example of suicide leading to the name being removed from the book of life;

Judas, the apostle Judas is an outstanding example of a man once saved who was lost because of sin. In Scripture we have statements that Judas was to be a man who was a "familiar friend" of Christ who ate of His bread which is an idiom of close friendship (Ps. 41:9) v.9, "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."

He was not an enemy of Christ, but an equal in grace, a guide, and a sweet acquaintance (Ps. 55:12-13) v. 12, For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him:

v. 13, But it was thou, a man, mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance.

He was to have his habitation desolate and be blotted out of the book of the living (Ps. 69:25-28 with Acts 1:20), and he was to have "another take his place" in the Christian ministry and in the kingship over one of the tribes of Israel (Ps. 109:8). These passages were fulfilled in Judas according to Matt.26:24; John 13:18; Acts 1:16-25.

In Matt. 10 we have the facts recorded that Judas as one of the "twelve disciples" received power over demons, sickness and disease and a call to preach the gospel. Of these twelve (Judas included) it is said that Christ gave them power and sent them forth, and commanded them to preach, and to heal the sick. Christ said to Judas and all the twelve, "freely ye have received, freely give. . . . I send you forth as sheep . . . it shall not be ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you" (Matt. 10:1-20. These statements prove that Judas was once a chosen and genuine apostle. In Mark 6:7-13 we read that the twelve (Judas included) went "forth two by two . . . and preached that men should repent. And they (Judas included) cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick and healed them.

The Holy Spirit through Luke records that Judas "by transgression fell" (Acts 1:15-25) and we should believe what the Holy Spirit tells us in Luke. It was not until the last supper that the devil entered into Judas, that is became united with him in the same crime. It was two days before the Passover that he put it in the heart of Judas to go to the enemies of Jesus to betray Him into their hands (Matt. 26:1-5, 14-16; John 13:2). It was at this time he openly broke with Christ and sought opportunity to betray Him.

Judas was sorry afterwards for his betrayed (Matt. 27:3-5). He could have repented and been forgiven as any of the others who cursed, denied Christ, and fled like cowards in the test. But being of a disposition to do so, he brooded over his fall and yielded to temptation to commit suicide.

It was because he committed suicide rather than truly repent that he was lost.

He committed suicide and must be lost, for no murderer has eternal life (1 Sam.28:7-25; 31:1-6; 1 John 3:15; Gal. 5:19-21). Judas was a saved man because his name was written in God's book of life. only to be blotted out because He killed himself.

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5 hours ago, HAZARD said:

A New Testament example of suicide leading to the name being removed from the book of life;

Judas, the apostle Judas is an outstanding example of a man once saved who was lost because of sin. In Scripture we have statements that Judas was to be a man who was a "familiar friend" of Christ who ate of His bread which is an idiom of close friendship (Ps. 41:9) v.9, "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."

He was not an enemy of Christ, but an equal in grace, a guide, and a sweet acquaintance (Ps. 55:12-13) v. 12, For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him:

v. 13, But it was thou, a man, mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance.

He was to have his habitation desolate and be blotted out of the book of the living (Ps. 69:25-28 with Acts 1:20), and he was to have "another take his place" in the Christian ministry and in the kingship over one of the tribes of Israel (Ps. 109:8). These passages were fulfilled in Judas according to Matt.26:24; John 13:18; Acts 1:16-25.

In Matt. 10 we have the facts recorded that Judas as one of the "twelve disciples" received power over demons, sickness and disease and a call to preach the gospel. Of these twelve (Judas included) it is said that Christ gave them power and sent them forth, and commanded them to preach, and to heal the sick. Christ said to Judas and all the twelve, "freely ye have received, freely give. . . . I send you forth as sheep . . . it shall not be ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you" (Matt. 10:1-20. These statements prove that Judas was once a chosen and genuine apostle. In Mark 6:7-13 we read that the twelve (Judas included) went "forth two by two . . . and preached that men should repent. And they (Judas included) cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick and healed them.

The Holy Spirit through Luke records that Judas "by transgression fell" (Acts 1:15-25) and we should believe what the Holy Spirit tells us in Luke. It was not until the last supper that the devil entered into Judas, that is became united with him in the same crime. It was two days before the Passover that he put it in the heart of Judas to go to the enemies of Jesus to betray Him into their hands (Matt. 26:1-5, 14-16; John 13:2). It was at this time he openly broke with Christ and sought opportunity to betray Him.

Judas was sorry afterwards for his betrayed (Matt. 27:3-5). He could have repented and been forgiven as any of the others who cursed, denied Christ, and fled like cowards in the test. But being of a disposition to do so, he brooded over his fall and yielded to temptation to commit suicide.

It was because he committed suicide rather than truly repent that he was lost.

He committed suicide and must be lost, for no murderer has eternal life (1 Sam.28:7-25; 31:1-6; 1 John 3:15; Gal. 5:19-21). Judas was a saved man because his name was written in God's book of life. only to be blotted out because He killed himself.

I have the ultimate respect for Judas, a man who was chosen by JESUS to be his disciple, and who believed with all his heart that Jesus was the CHRIST, who follow Jesus Christ for more than three years, living his family and not pursuing the need for a wife and children, just to be with Jesus when he would be Throned as the King of the Jews when he would defeat the Romans the way Moses defeated the great Faraw, not with an army but with the Power of God. 

That's what the Jews were expecting from JESUS and that what the other disciples also believe, if you follow their demands to JESUS CHRIST from them and their families, you will see that they hold to those beliefs for some time pass the resurrection. 

We have to see Judas within that context to do justice to him and correctly evaluate his motivation and his actions. 

During the last Supper JESUS did something that guided Judas in what he did. 

In a way he sent Judas on a mission. 

Judas having been with Jesus for some time, he knew that his thoughts and his plans or perhaps the plan that he had conceived in his mind, were not hidden from JESUS CHRIST. 

And his plan was not a spotanius plan, but was something that he had very careful though and plan. 

So Judas must have perceived that JESUS knowing his plans, and Jesus sure did, but what convince Judas that Jesus was in agreement with him, was the fact that he never reproved him, thus reiforsing the belief in Judas that Jesus was the one who have planted in him the seed of his proactive plan, for him to be an instrument, that will end with Jesus reveiling himself as the King of the Jews the annoyted Messaia and the preist and the leaders will believe in him, and bow down to him and worship JESUS in front of all the people. 

And Judas been the one who had the plan of how it will be done, he hoped that he whould be exaulted with great honor. 

Even at the supper JESUS who knew his plans the only one, he did not exposed him and try to stop him, but in stand he gave him the go ahead, that he was in agreement with what Judas was thinking and even endorsed the time for him was right for Judas to do what he plan to do. 

JESUS gave him his blessings, and Judas got up from the table with full assurance in his heart, that when the Jews will try to hurt Jesus , that very time it will be for JESUS to reveal himself as the CHRIST the King of the Jews. 

This is something to ponder about. 

And see if you dicide to complete what follow up. 

Whether the devil wanted Jesus Christ to be betrayed according to the scriptures or God wanted JESUS CHRIST to be betrayed and fullfilled the scriptures and the devil would try to do anything in his power to stop this from happening. 

 

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