notsolostsoul

Saul the Pharisees vs Paul the Apostle. No difference really.

106 posts in this topic

http://www.lastdays.org.uk/jesus-and-the-pharisees.html

You can copy and paste to your search engine.

I've had trouble trying the link. Sorry!

Before coming upon this article, I had wondered what Paul/Saul beliefs were before his conversion.

So I looked up the Pharisee's beliefs. These excerpt described my thoughts.

"Because of this, the experts of the law set about "hedging" the Mosaic law with precepts so as to make its violation almost impossible. They also added to these laws and precepts, customs which had been handed down through the years. They took these precepts to such extremes that the original intent of the written law was often lost, having been made of no effect by the oral laws and traditions which they had brought in." -quoted from artcle above

Also

"To the Pharisee, keeping the law (both written and oral) was everything. The condition of a person's heart towards God was unimportant. Because of their strict adherence to levitical laws of purity, they kept themselves separate from gentile sinners (on whom they looked down), for fear of being defiled." -quoted from article.

My fear of Christians today, is that some fall into these same practices. Written law is most high and correction and condemnation to those who do not follow.

Now not to leave out the title of my OP heading. Saul believed these values as a Pharisee and put to death (even physically) those that the Pharisees saw as violators of the law.

As Paul the Apostle, he seems to continue these values and practices, minus the physical death. He writes with precepts, adding extra to Jesus' teachings.

Then again, maybe that wasn't his intentions, but some who follow his writings to a tee, have exhibited these same Pharisees practices.

Examples:  They keep themselves separated from sinners and look down on them. Sentencing them to spiritual death because they live differently or think differently to what is written.

This article also explains why the Pharisees opposed Jesus and Jesus' way of dealing with sinners, his dealings with all. Very opposite ways in doing so.

I'm not trying to change anyone's view on their beliefs, just sharing information to incite and seek out the truth for oneself.

We are taught to question man and test his spirit. Paul was a man. I test him like I would anyone else. 

Jesus' teachings first, then mans. This works for me.

To also keep with the heading. The only difference is Paul's writings after his conversion, is now it bares Jesus name.

I'm not saying Paul's teachings can't be used for learning. Everyone can be used by God. Just ensure your Spirit is CHRIST based. As I said this works for ME.

I found it to be an interesting article.

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Pffffff......

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Posted (edited)

54 minutes ago, notsolostsoul said:

http://www.lastdays.org.uk/jesus-and-the-pharisees.html

You can copy and paste to your search engine.

I've had trouble trying the link. Sorry!

Before coming upon this article, I had wondered what Paul/Saul beliefs were before his conversion.

So I looked up the Pharisee's beliefs. These excerpt described my thoughts.

"Because of this, the experts of the law set about "hedging" the Mosaic law with precepts so as to make its violation almost impossible. They also added to these laws and precepts, customs which had been handed down through the years. They took these precepts to such extremes that the original intent of the written law was often lost, having been made of no effect by the oral laws and traditions which they had brought in." -quoted from artcle above

Also

"To the Pharisee, keeping the law (both written and oral) was everything. The condition of a person's heart towards God was unimportant. Because of their strict adherence to levitical laws of purity, they kept themselves separate from gentile sinners (on whom they looked down), for fear of being defiled." -quoted from article.

My fear of Christians today, is that some fall into these same practices. Written law is most high and correction and condemnation to those who do not follow.

Now not to leave out the title of my OP heading. Saul believed these values as a Pharisee and put to death (even physically) those that the Pharisees saw as violators of the law.

As Paul the Apostle, he seems to continue these values and practices, minus the physical death. He writes with precepts, adding extra to Jesus' teachings.

Then again, maybe that wasn't his intentions, but some who follow his writings to a tee, have exhibited these same Pharisees practices.

Examples:  They keep themselves separated from sinners and look down on them. Sentencing them to spiritual death because they live differently or think differently to what is written.

This article also explains why the Pharisees opposed Jesus and Jesus' way of dealing with sinners, his dealings with all. Very opposite ways in doing so.

I'm not trying to change anyone's view on their beliefs, just sharing information to incite and seek out the truth for oneself.

We are taught to question man and test his spirit. Paul was a man. I test him like I would anyone else. 

Jesus' teachings first, then mans. This works for me.

To also keep with the heading. The only difference is Paul's writings after his conversion, is now it bares Jesus name.

I'm not saying Paul's teachings can't be used for learning. Everyone can be used by God. Just ensure your Spirit is CHRIST based. As I said this works for ME.

I found it to be an interesting article.

In reading Scripture (both the Gospels and the Pauline Epistles), we find that there is a GREAT deal of difference between Paul's writings and "what the Pharisees believed". This hearkens back to the old debate of "accepting only what Jesus actually said in Scripture" as opposed to the ENTIRE Bible being the Word of God and thus all of it being accepted.

That being said: if we are going to apply the line of thinking "We are taught to question man and test his spirit. Paul was a man. I test him like I would anyone else."then we have to apply that to the entire Bible and test each book, starting with Genesis (seeing as each inspired book of Scripture was set to papyrus/parchment by a human under the direction of God). Then after all that, come back and apply it to Paul's works as well.

At the end of all that, I think we would find Paul to be much more on the same "page" as Jesus that this "article" postulates...

 

 

Edited by Sojourner414
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34 minutes ago, Rick_Parker said:

Pffffff......

:rolleyes:

 

Saul referred to himself as an Apostle in all his own writings. Not once did the actual Disciples of Christ, the anointed, appointed, Apostles of our Lord do so. 

There are many differences in Saul's teachings to that of Christ. Namely Saul doesn't refer to the time of Jesus when he was alive delivering his ministry. In fact, after Saul's encounter with the light on the Damascus road, two different accounts recorded about that, he avoided the anointed, appointed, Apostles of Christ and for years. 
Even going so far as to curse them, in his epistle to the church in Galatia. Galatians 1. And expressly verses 8 and 9. 

While Saul did fulfill Christ's prophecy and warning in, Matthew 24.  And interestingly enough, Saul did fulfill all the signs in that warning. He claimed to have seen Christ, a light, on the Damascus road. The Christ that healed the blind , in Saul's encounter blinded Saul with scales on his eyes. 

Saul claimed that his working wonders and miracles in later epistles were signs he was an Apostle. His epistle to the church in Corinth. 2 Corinthians 12:12 

Follow Christ. :) And ignore those who would hope to insult you when they could have simply said nothing if they didn't appreciate your thread. 

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1 hour ago, notsolostsoul said:

http://www.lastdays.org.uk/jesus-and-the-pharisees.html

You can copy and paste to your search engine.

I've had trouble trying the link. Sorry!

Before coming upon this article, I had wondered what Paul/Saul beliefs were before his conversion.

So I looked up the Pharisee's beliefs. These excerpt described my thoughts.

"Because of this, the experts of the law set about "hedging" the Mosaic law with precepts so as to make its violation almost impossible. They also added to these laws and precepts, customs which had been handed down through the years. They took these precepts to such extremes that the original intent of the written law was often lost, having been made of no effect by the oral laws and traditions which they had brought in." -quoted from artcle above

Also

"To the Pharisee, keeping the law (both written and oral) was everything. The condition of a person's heart towards God was unimportant. Because of their strict adherence to levitical laws of purity, they kept themselves separate from gentile sinners (on whom they looked down), for fear of being defiled." -quoted from article.

My fear of Christians today, is that some fall into these same practices. Written law is most high and correction and condemnation to those who do not follow.

Now not to leave out the title of my OP heading. Saul believed these values as a Pharisee and put to death (even physically) those that the Pharisees saw as violators of the law.

As Paul the Apostle, he seems to continue these values and practices, minus the physical death. He writes with precepts, adding extra to Jesus' teachings.

Then again, maybe that wasn't his intentions, but some who follow his writings to a tee, have exhibited these same Pharisees practices.

Examples:  They keep themselves separated from sinners and look down on them. Sentencing them to spiritual death because they live differently or think differently to what is written.

This article also explains why the Pharisees opposed Jesus and Jesus' way of dealing with sinners, his dealings with all. Very opposite ways in doing so.

I'm not trying to change anyone's view on their beliefs, just sharing information to incite and seek out the truth for oneself.

We are taught to question man and test his spirit. Paul was a man. I test him like I would anyone else. 

Jesus' teachings first, then mans. This works for me.

To also keep with the heading. The only difference is Paul's writings after his conversion, is now it bares Jesus name.

I'm not saying Paul's teachings can't be used for learning. Everyone can be used by God. Just ensure your Spirit is CHRIST based. As I said this works for ME.

I found it to be an interesting article.

"I'm not saying Paul's teachings can't be used for learning. Everyone can be used by God. Just ensure your Spirit is CHRIST based. As I said this works for ME"

"Now not to leave out the title of my OP heading. Saul believed these values as a Pharisee and put to death (even physically) those that the Pharisees saw as violators of the law.

As Paul the Apostle, he seems to continue these values and practices, minus the physical death. He writes with precepts, adding extra to Jesus' teachings."

.Why is it interesting?  Your post is not interesting at all to those of us that are MATURE.

I find this line of thinking and this post to be blasphemous!!

Paul was a APOSTLE of Christ. He wasnt just [any man] but he was part of the CORNERSTONE of the church!  Paul was converted by GOD from a christian persecutor to a  sold our fervent apostle for Christ!  Paul was beheaded for his faith in Christ! 

Paul was used by GOD to write 13 books in the NT !!

You have the audacity to say in so many words that Paul was in essence still a pharisee with a lil Jesus sprinkled in? 

 

"We are taught to question man and test his spirit. Paul was a man. I test him like I would anyone else. "

 

Oh really? So what is it that we weigh the [spirit] against?  The WORD OF GOD in which PAUL was INSPIRED BY the HOLY SPIRIT is to be tested against what exactly pray tell?! 

How do you propose we go about testing the spirit against THE SPIRIT? 

 

This post is a NOTHING BURGER! 

The LORD REBUKE the SPIRIT BEHIND THIS EVIL POST! AMEN

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1 hour ago, Blueyedjewel said:

Why is it interesting?  Your post is not interesting at all to those of us that are MATURE.

It is interesting to ME because it gives a background into the beliefs of Saul.

It's interesting to ME because, the way Paul writes with the added precepts now makes sense.

Jesus teaches "Do not judge"

Paul teaches "it's our duty to judge"" We do so in love."- paraphasing

1 hour ago, Blueyedjewel said:

I find this line of thinking and this post to be blasphemous!!

Glad that Jesus judges over me and does not limit my thoughts to Man's thoughts.

Jesus is merciful, and if I am incorrect in my thinking, I am sure he will correct me in my journey to further MATURE my relationship with him. This is a never ending process. Nor can man assess his MATURITY.

Pharisees thought they were experts in Law. 

Thats also interesting, the article explains how Jesus was merciful to sinners. Probably because he knows their heart. 

Where Pharisees are quick to judge and punish or persecute.

This relates to some of the Christians I have encountered that have such focused religion on written law that they bypass true mercy. Bypass true love.

They will throw scripture, usually Paul's writings to make other sinners feel they are surely doomed if not 100% following what is written or taught as tradition.

1 hour ago, Blueyedjewel said:

Paul was a APOSTLE of Christ. He wasnt just [any man]

Jesus wasn't just any man. His Apostles failed just as any other man. Judas betrayed, Peter denies Jesus. Sure they didn't want to, but they are flawed MAN. Paul is also FLAWED MAN.

1 hour ago, Blueyedjewel said:

Oh really? So what is it that we weigh the [spirit] against?

There are many teachings in scripture to use to test. Given through The Apostles. I am sure Paul used these to help in his God inspired writings. Much of the teaching are Jesus' teachings, just with a sprinkle of Paul/Saul.

Paul is a good Teacher and Minister of scripture. Just as we have good Ministers and teachers now. 

However there have been times where I will hear a sermon and be like "that don't sound right"

God inspired and from God are two different things.

Jesus and Paul are two different sources.

Jesus, of God, infallible.

Paul, God inspired, as fallible as you or I.

So yes I will test him against Jesus' teachings.

Also I'm thankful that The Holy Spirit assist in my discernment of what Jesus teaches and what others teach of Him.

My Spirit aligns with Jesus. Loving, Merciful, Kind, Truth Telling Jesus.

 

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2 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

"then we have to apply that to the entire Bible and test each book, starting with Genesis (seeing as each inspired book of Scripture was set to papyrus/parchment by a human under the direction of God). Then after all that, come back and apply it to Paul's works as well.

Didn't Jesus say, "Do as the Pharisees say but do not do as they do"?

Jesus did not have a problem with the Word/Law of God. He says we should abided by that. He did not agree with how Man implemented the Law. How they, twisted, added and made it seem that if the Law wasn't followed as it is Written or Traditional practiced then sinners will never get into Heaven.

This is how some Christians, heavy in Paul's teachings approach OTHER sinners. 

Trying to force feed scripture as written as practiced and saying you are not of God you're going to hell. Turning many away from God. 

Didn't Jesus warn that these individualprevent others as well as themselves out of Heaven?

As I stated, maybe Paul's writings and intentions are being misused. 

I just found it interesting that many of his old ways (Saul) can be seen after his conversion. (Paul) 

2 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

At the end of all that, I think we would find Paul to be much more on the same "page" as Jesus that this "article" postulates...

I think Paul basis are in Jesus, but some of the adding is what makes him different. Maybe He like many of Man, is inspired by Jesus but still struggled in his journey. 

As I said his teachings are helpful and God uses all of it.

I just found the article interesting. To have the background of where Saul/Paul came from explains more of an understanding of him for ME.

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4 hours ago, notsolostsoul said:

http://www.lastdays.org.uk/jesus-and-the-pharisees.html

You can copy and paste to your search engine.

I've had trouble trying the link. Sorry!

Before coming upon this article, I had wondered what Paul/Saul beliefs were before his conversion.

So I looked up the Pharisee's beliefs. These excerpt described my thoughts.

"Because of this, the experts of the law set about "hedging" the Mosaic law with precepts so as to make its violation almost impossible. They also added to these laws and precepts, customs which had been handed down through the years. They took these precepts to such extremes that the original intent of the written law was often lost, having been made of no effect by the oral laws and traditions which they had brought in." -quoted from artcle above

Also

"To the Pharisee, keeping the law (both written and oral) was everything. The condition of a person's heart towards God was unimportant. Because of their strict adherence to levitical laws of purity, they kept themselves separate from gentile sinners (on whom they looked down), for fear of being defiled." -quoted from article.

My fear of Christians today, is that some fall into these same practices. Written law is most high and correction and condemnation to those who do not follow.

Now not to leave out the title of my OP heading. Saul believed these values as a Pharisee and put to death (even physically) those that the Pharisees saw as violators of the law.

As Paul the Apostle, he seems to continue these values and practices, minus the physical death. He writes with precepts, adding extra to Jesus' teachings.

Then again, maybe that wasn't his intentions, but some who follow his writings to a tee, have exhibited these same Pharisees practices.

Examples:  They keep themselves separated from sinners and look down on them. Sentencing them to spiritual death because they live differently or think differently to what is written.

This article also explains why the Pharisees opposed Jesus and Jesus' way of dealing with sinners, his dealings with all. Very opposite ways in doing so.

I'm not trying to change anyone's view on their beliefs, just sharing information to incite and seek out the truth for oneself.

We are taught to question man and test his spirit. Paul was a man. I test him like I would anyone else. 

Jesus' teachings first, then mans. This works for me.

To also keep with the heading. The only difference is Paul's writings after his conversion, is now it bares Jesus name.

I'm not saying Paul's teachings can't be used for learning. Everyone can be used by God. Just ensure your Spirit is CHRIST based. As I said this works for ME.

I found it to be an interesting article.

Not only Paul's beliefs, but also his actions were 180 degrees out post-conversion than what they were pre-conversion.

Why is it that some people are always so intent on bashing on Paul?

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37 minutes ago, notsolostsoul said:

Didn't Jesus say, "Do as the Pharisees say but do not do as they do"?

Jesus did not have a problem with the Word/Law of God. He says we should abided by that. He did not agree with how Man implemented the Law. How they, twisted, added and made it seem that if the Law wasn't followed as it is Written or Traditional practiced then sinners will never get into Heaven.

This is how some Christians, heavy in Paul's teachings approach OTHER sinners. 

Trying to force feed scripture as written as practiced and saying you are not of God you're going to hell. Turning many away from God. 

Didn't Jesus warn that these individualprevent others as well as themselves out of Heaven?

As I stated, maybe Paul's writings and intentions are being misused. 

I just found it interesting that many of his old ways (Saul) can be seen after his conversion. (Paul) 

I think Paul basis are in Jesus, but some of the adding is what makes him different. Maybe He like many of Man, is inspired by Jesus but still struggled in his journey. 

As I said his teachings are helpful and God uses all of it.

I just found the article interesting. To have the background of where Saul/Paul came from explains more of an understanding of him for ME.

 

1) Paul definitively was not the same person post-conversion as he was pre-conversion; your insistence upon this appears as an attempt to defeat the fact that he was born as a new creation in Christ and would indicate an effort to discredit his books as "lesser" and holding less authority than the rest of Scripture. That leads into the second point:

2) In everything you have said here, it seems to focus on you and what is means to you. But Scripture says this:

"So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." (2 Peter 1:19-21, NASB, emphasis mine)

This means that what Scripture "means to you" does not matter in light of what Scripture means as given by God.  Scripture interprets Scripture, not own own whims, and certainly not the "cherry picking" or "cafeteria-style" method of interpretation that many seem fond of nowadays. And yes, you can find the article "interesting", but it would appear that you did not apply the same "testing the spirits" to the article that you say you "applied" to Paul.

Since when did the words of extra biblical writers begin to be accepted as "more reliable" than Scripture? They're supposedly "telling the truth" but everyone who penned the books in the Bible were "under their own agenda" or somehow in error? Did it ever occur to you that the author of the "article" you read might have an agenda of their own in order to sway people?

The Bible is flawed but they are not? Tell me how that works, given the people of today's world are hopelessly lost, deluded and do not know which way to turn?

The short of it is this, notsolostsoul: we either accept Paul's books as Scripture or we don't. It's a zero-sum game here. And since Paul's work tied so much into Scripture (as do the remaining books of the Bible), it's either accept the whole  of it, or none of it. And if we don't then perhaps the first spirit  we need to test to see if it is from the Lord is our own.

What is in Paul's writings that you don't want to be true?

 

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3 hours ago, Blueyedjewel said:

"I'm not saying Paul's teachings can't be used for learning. Everyone can be used by God. Just ensure your Spirit is CHRIST based. As I said this works for ME"

"Now not to leave out the title of my OP heading. Saul believed these values as a Pharisee and put to death (even physically) those that the Pharisees saw as violators of the law.

As Paul the Apostle, he seems to continue these values and practices, minus the physical death. He writes with precepts, adding extra to Jesus' teachings."

.Why is it interesting?  Your post is not interesting at all to those of us that are MATURE.

I find this line of thinking and this post to be blasphemous!!

Paul was a APOSTLE of Christ. He wasnt just [any man] but he was part of the CORNERSTONE of the church!  Paul was converted by GOD from a christian persecutor to a  sold our fervent apostle for Christ!  Paul was beheaded for his faith in Christ! 

Paul was used by GOD to write 13 books in the NT !!

You have the audacity to say in so many words that Paul was in essence still a pharisee with a lil Jesus sprinkled in? 

 

"We are taught to question man and test his spirit. Paul was a man. I test him like I would anyone else. "

 

Oh really? So what is it that we weigh the [spirit] against?  The WORD OF GOD in which PAUL was INSPIRED BY the HOLY SPIRIT is to be tested against what exactly pray tell?! 

How do you propose we go about testing the spirit against THE SPIRIT? 

 

This post is a NOTHING BURGER! 

The LORD REBUKE the SPIRIT BEHIND THIS EVIL POST! AMEN

Amen.   amen. and amen.   I Know why so many attack paul,  Due to most his letters fill up the new test.  And man they come with correction.

the flesh likes a more kind approach to sin.   Paul knew CHRIST far , far more than the one who posted this article does.  Far more.

I guarantee it.  Paul constantly corrected even jews trying to go back under the law.  ITS JUST PAUL CORRECTED a lot......and todays society don't like that.

But then it would not like JESUS either.................whew he rebuked.  talk about warning against sin.  He said it would be better to cut of hand that offends

or pluck out the eye that offends rather than to continue in Sin.  

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