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Guest Wanda01
12 minutes ago, fixerupper said:

I'll tell you the same thing.

Here's the 'falling away' passage.  Show me where you find a church or christians in it.  

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

______________________________________________________________________________

Romans 16:17-18 ", Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple."

Let's not forget Ephesians 4:11-16 (paying close attention to verse 14!) "

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

You quote...

Romans 16:17-18 ", Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple."

Heresy isn't apostasy.  Being lukewarm or undevoted isn't apostasy.  In full context this passage is actually saying that certain false teachers are allowed to stay in the church because they were NOT teaching damanble heresies but the congregation was told to avoid them.  

You quote...

That's not apostasy either.  I can prove that it isn't, I'd like you to prove it is!

Lol. I'm not going to continue to do this back and forth with you, fixer upper. You claim you can prove something, then don't. I don't care for games. If you have something to prove, then by all means, do so. I will not respond to you again, until I see you have something of merit to offer.

 

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Guest Wanda01

Ordinarily, I would look up each Scripture before posting, but as it is late and I have a family to ready for the close of another day, I submit the following:

Regarding the falling away/apostasy.....

Question: "Will there be a great apostasy / falling away during the end times?"

Answer: The Bible indicates that there will be a great apostasy during the end times. The “great apostasy” is mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. The KJV calls it the “falling away,” while the NIV and ESV call it “the rebellion.” And that’s what an apostasy is: a rebellion, an abandonment of the truth. The end times will include a wholesale rejection of God’s revelation, a further “falling away” of an already fallen world.


And of course, it goes on........

https://www.gotquestions.org/great-apostasy.html

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45 minutes ago, Wanda01 said:

Ordinarily, I would look up each Scripture before posting, but as it is late and I have a family to ready for the close of another day, I submit the following:

Regarding the falling away/apostasy.....

Question: "Will there be a great apostasy / falling away during the end times?"

Answer: The Bible indicates that there will be a great apostasy during the end times. The “great apostasy” is mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. The KJV calls it the “falling away,” while the NIV and ESV call it “the rebellion.” And that’s what an apostasy is: a rebellion, an abandonment of the truth. The end times will include a wholesale rejection of God’s revelation, a further “falling away” of an already fallen world.


And of course, it goes on........

https://www.gotquestions.org/great-apostasy.html

The question posed on 'Gotquestions is...

Quote

"Will there be a great apostasy / falling away during the end times?"

I agree it does happen during the end times.  My contention is just "what it is, and what it is not."

Quote

Answer: The Bible indicates that there will be a great apostasy during the end times. The “great apostasy” is mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. The KJV calls it the “falling away,” while the NIV and ESV call it “the rebellion.”

And I agree with that.  Rebellion is actually a better word than 'falling away.'

Quote

And that’s what an apostasy is: a rebellion, an abandonment of the truth. The end times will include a wholesale rejection of God’s revelation, a further “falling away” of an already fallen world.

Realize that Gotquestions isn't always right.  They never answer my questions!

Now look at what they say and notice the disconnect.  First he says, "it's a rebellion.  Then he says again, "And that’s what an apostasy is: a rebellion,"

But then says, "an abandonment of the truth!"

Now wait a minute.  A rebellion isn't really an abandonment of truth.  So lets check that out.

This is the web definition of apostasy.  Notice how the other religions define apostasy similarly.  It's only the Christian definition that's different.

Apostasy - (noun) 
1. The act of abandoning a party or cause.
2. The state of having rejected your religious beliefs, political party, cause or sports team in favor of opposing beliefs, causes or teams.
3. A defection, renunciation, disaffiliation, abandonment or revolt from a previous association.
4. (Islamic definition) Rejection in word or deed of one's former religion.
5. (Christian definition) To fall away from the truth.

My point?  The christian definition is wrong.  That's not what apostasy is.

The ONLY places we can go to understand 'apostasy' is 2 Thes. 2 and Acts 21 because that's the only two places the word is used in the NT.

This word apostasy is unique since this is the only place it's translated 'falling away,' and actually, a poor translation of the word.  It comes from a word meaning a 'divorce' or to defect and to abandon something.  The only other place it's used is in Acts 21:21 where it's translated forsake.  There really isn't any other place we can go in the bible to understand it.  

Every other religion views apostasy as abandoning their former political or religious affiliation and accepting another, or nothing at all. It's a revolt and rebellion and a total abandonment. NOT of truth, but of anything. A Christian can not remain a Christian or stay in a Church and be an apostate according to the correct definition of the word. 

So not to make this post so long, let me show you why apostasy has nothing to do with the church.  It really isn't that difficult to see!

Notice the text below, from the word 'except' in verse 3c, to the end of verse 12, the church is not implied in any way because the words "but we" in verse 13 prove that Christians (the church) is not part of the apostasy!

The word 'but' is a conjunction that shows distinction and opposition to a previous statement.   It opposes persons to persons or things previously mentioned or thought of.  The distinction in this passage is between the followers of Christ as opposed to the man of sin and his followers.  The church is not implied whatsoever.

2  Thessalonians 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3a  Let no man deceive you by any means:  3b for that day shall not come, 3c except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.
10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13  But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

I use to believe what you do.  That is up to the time I did my own homework on the subject.  WIKI actually has it right, most Christians have it wrong.

WIKI says...
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Apostasy (Greek απο, apo, "away, apart", στασις, stasis, "standing") is the formal renunciation of one's religion.

I don't like using WIKI but...

Notice that every one of the following 'apostates' abandoned one thing and went to another.  And it applies to both religion and politics.

Noted apostates
This is a list of notable persons that have followed a religion and then publicly abandoned or publicly criticized it and attracted notable attention by this defection, or had a notable influence on society with their defection; or if the person has been notably been referred to as an apostate by other groups or people regardless whether the person accepts this label or not.

Ambedkar an ex-Hindu who became a Buddhist 
Karen Armstrong ex-Roman Catholic nun who became an atheist 
Julian the Apostate ex-Christian and Roman emperor
Aurelius Augustine (Augustine of Hippo) Former adherent of Manicheism who converted to Christianity and criticized Manicheism in his book called Confessions, though generally not labelled as an apostate because the term is originally used for people who leave Christianity, not for people who convert to it 
Marjoe Gortner ex-Christian 
Ayaan Hirsi Ali ex-Muslim 
Maria Monk Sometimes considered an apostate, though little evidence exists that she ever belonged to the religion she supposedly fled 
Taslima Nasrin born in a Muslim family who became an atheist 
Friedrich Nietzsche grew up in a Lutheran family and became a confirmed Christian in his teens but later became a staunch atheist 
Salman Rushdie Accused of being an apostate of Islam by Ruhollah Khomeini due to the publication of his book The Satanic Verses
Baruch Spinoza excommunicated from the Jewish community 
Ibn Warraq ex-Muslim

Entire kingdoms have gone into apostasy when it's ruler or king called for one and it was always to change the "national religion." I believe it was Nero who called for an apostasy FROM Judaism TO Hellenism.

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1 hour ago, fixerupper said:

Here's the 'falling away' passage.  Show me where you find a heretical church in it...

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Its real easy .   Does the world KNOW JESUS................UNBELIEVERS cant FALL AWAY..................BELIEVERS DO THOUGH.

the FALLING AWAY IS THE CHURCH FALLING AWAY FROM JESUS AND SOUND DOCTRINE.

 

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I mean everyone let us ponder that .  Even JESUS said but in time of temptation some FALL AWAY

unbelievers don't fall away from one they never KNEW...............only those WHO KNEW HIM CAN FALL AWAY.

IT IS THE MASS OF MANY that came and fell away.  the FALLING AWAY .  FALLING AWAY.............and OUR LORD USED

the same term FALL AWAY when he was specifically talking about some that had come , yet FALL AWAY..............IT IS A DELUSIONAL CHURCH

and pard.........................ITS HAPPENING , I mean ITS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW

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And now a parable of the generation and times we are living in.

This generation is like unto a Father and his son.  And the Father takes his son and says son behold this wonderful forest.

and the son says...............Father this is not a forest ,  its just billions of trees.

OR its like a father and son and the father says...............SON behold the ocean and beach

and the son says..........you silly man, that is no ocean nor beach , its just billions of gallons of salt water

and billions of grains of sand.

FOR THOUGH we tell this generation and show it the signs , it says.........you silly things...............these have always been and this is not what it means.

 

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Whereunto shall I liken this generation.

Its as though from the pages of a book of truth was a picture of the end days.   And the bible painted a picture of a large red dog.

then clearly seen is a large red dog..........and this generation says...................no the bible is wrong , that aint no large red dog , its a big scarlet canine.

Does anyone else notice that for those who KNOW the LORD the signs are getting real clear..........but for those who love him in mouth only

their eyes are seeing only more delusion.  YET THE SIGNS are all their  and very plain , as if a child could see them.  Yet the wise in this world see nothing

but what their heart desires them to see. 

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I have never seen a division like this occurring so fast.  Its as though those who LOVE the LORD are seeing clearer and clearer

and those who love this world are seeing less , less and less.

A DIVSION IS OCCURING ....................a LINE HAS BEEN DRAWN , IT T RULY TRULY HAS

and as time continues the two sides will split farther and father apart  the ones of GOD will see clearly the others only more darkness

and as time continues the hate will Increase within those who are blinded by their own hearts desires , those who rejected the love of the truth

will increase with more and more hate against those who hold TRUE TO THE LORD

ITS BEGAN .  THIER IS NO STOPPING THIS................and hate is murder .................this ends with a huge tribulation against those who rejected the lie and loved only truth.

its on par.  ITS HAPPENING right in front of so many eyes....................

Their is something so many miss....................its in Daniel.     IT SAYS SPECIFICALLY WHEN the dark king arises.

now pay close heed..........cause we right at this.

IN the latter times of their kingdom.  WHEN....okay this is KEY

WHEN the transgressors have come to the FULL............THEN STANDS A KING UNDERSTANIND DARK SENTENCES

and notice how he destroys................through PEACE

PEACE..........................LOOK AT THIS WORLD............LOOK AT IT...................its changed massive.

NOW its evil to try and correct a boy who thinks he is a girl..................its evil to correct gay marriage........IT SWITCHED AND FAST

THE TRANSGRESSORS ARE QUICKLY FILLING UP THE WHOLE WORLD............is it really any surprise we even have a religion

created by so called christains that DENY JESUS OUTRIGHT as the ONLY WAY............and what all for PEACE...........HE IS COMING SOON THE MAN OF SIN WILL STAND

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1 hour ago, Wanda01 said:

And I will continue to tell you that I disagree. I stand by every verse I have quoted, in addition to every comment I have made. 

STAND FIRM WANDA STAND FIRM...............many are not seeing the simple things anymore.  a falling away unlike any thing I have ever seen is happening.

YOU KEEP ON THE PATH .    We will pray for this man.   But heed not what is being said. YOU STAY ENCOURAGED.........I know their are far less

who see what we see...............but we will do all to try and help them , t o  remind them , to warn and encourage to do all for their sakes and the LOVE OF TRUTH. amen

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2 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said:

How about the sad fact that a good majority of Christians are biblically illiterate, many approve of "gay marriage", and do not take Scripture at face value.

BTW: I said nothing to you, yet you decided to take up an attitude with me. Is that how you demonstrate how well you keep the commands of Christ and demonstrate a "good witness"?

 

The falling away is happening.  the transgressor are coming to the full.

The pattern the world and churches are on will lead the world right to amergeddon.

Those who call evil good and good evil..............its in the church , even the church does it now

God even told the jews once you are as sodomm................they don't even hide their sin no more ..........they CELEBRATE IT RIGHT IN THE STREETS

THIS IS NOW HAPPENING TODAY.................used too gays hid, used to , NOW ITS CELEBRATED HONORED RIGHT IN THE STREETS and worse the churches embrace it too.

JUDGMENT IS AT THE DOOR.

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