666 or 616

[SavedOnebyGrace]

Introduction: 666 or 616?

I listened to an interesting discussion today regarding the number 666 and referring the number to man (mankind, humankind, etc.) and the beast of Revelation 13:18.  If you accept the number as 666, what does that mean?

We are carbon-based life forms.  Carbon is a chemical element made up of 6 protons, 6 electrons and 6 neutrons in its atomic structure.  Life is carbon-based.  We are all carbon-based life forms.  If the number of the beast is also 666, that would mean the beast (antichrist) is human (demonically possessed).

Is this analysis true to Biblical prophesy?  We must remember that John explained what he saw in Revelations in the best way he could, and that it wouldn't be fully understood until the last days.  Of course there are other ways to understand Revelation 13:18.  And what if the number is really 616?  This is a fascinating subject that I believe can only be understood by the Bible and Science.  I don't have answers here, just questions and directions for further, deeper study.

[dprprb]

"Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast"  - the sum, in descending order, of Roman numerals used for counting is 1666 and the Romans were the imperial bad guys at the time.  I think we need more Scriptural accounting references because it could be 2/3 (Koide formula), upside down 999 or any modern evaluation that seems significant (multiple candidates). To that end , one Scripture that always stuck in my head is 2 Samuel 24 in the OT when God reprimands King David for counting his army which is a faith issue in battle and perhaps applicable in some manner here due to the battle with the anti-C.

 

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Introduction: 666 or 616?

I listened to an interesting discussion today regarding the number 666 and referring the number to man (mankind, humankind, etc.) and the beast of Revelation 13:18.  If you accept the number as 666, what does that mean?

We are carbon-based life forms.  Carbon is a chemical element made up of 6 protons, 6 electrons and 6 neutrons in its atomic structure.  Life is carbon-based.  We are all carbon-based life forms.  If the number of the beast is also 666, that would mean the beast (antichrist) is human (demonically possessed).

Is this analysis true to Biblical prophesy?  We must remember that John explained what he saw in Revelations in the best way he could, and that it wouldn't be fully understood until the last days.  Of course there are other ways to understand Revelation 13:18.  And what if the number is really 616?  This is a fascinating subject that I believe can only be understood by the Bible and Science.  I don't have answers here, just questions and directions for further, deeper study.

The book of Revelation tells us the number is 666. I would not want to change it.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

The book of Revelation tells us the number is 666. I would not want to change it.

If you read the article;

Quote

Although the vast majority of manuscripts give the number of the beast as six hundred sixty six, four (two pre-sixth century and two no longer existent post-eighth century) are known to state 616 as the number and one 11th century manuscript gives 665. This explains why the question about 666 vs. 616 has been raised. Although one could argue that the fact that the majority of manuscripts contain 666 closes the question, textual criticism acknowledges that not all manuscripts are created equal. Some are more reliable than others, based on numerous factors, including age, condition, and history. So, let’s look at some of the oldest and most respected Greek manuscripts that contain this passage.

Much of the recent stir about 616 has arisen due to renewed studies of a group of very old manuscripts originally discovered in 1895 by archaeologists at the site of an ancient garbage dump in Oxyrhynchus in Egypt. Many of the Oxyrhynchus manuscripts consist of New Testament papyri, and are very old when compared to other manuscripts. One of them named P115 (also called P. Oxy. 4499), dates from around 300 AD and contains some or all of 12 chapters from the Book of Revelation, including Revelation 13:18. It records 616 as the number of the beast using Greek letters (see figure 1). Because of this manuscript’s age, some have jumped to the conclusion that this must be the original reading. However, this conclusion cannot be made. Other evidence must be considered. For example, three manuscripts from the Chester Beatty Papyri include portions of the New Testament. One of these named P47, dates from the 3rd century and contains chapters 9-17 of Revelation. In its reading of Revelation 13:18, it states that the number of the beast is 666, using Greek letters (see figure 2). So, two equally old papyri have both readings – 666 and 616.

Other ancient manuscripts contain similar differences. The uncial manuscripts consist of those written with Greek capital letters. Around 100 of these date from before the 7th century. Six uncials are known to contain Revelation 13 [Aland, “Text of NT” Chart 6K] and are noteworthy in this discussion. Codex a(Aleph – the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet), also known as Sinaiticus, was discovered by Constantin von Tischendorf in St. Catherine’s Monastery on Mt. Sinai in 1859. It dates from the fourth century and is one of the most revered NT manuscripts, due to its age as well as the fact that it contains all of the New Testament. Its reading of Revelation 13:18 denotes 666 as the number of the beast, spelled out with Greek words. Codex Alexandrinus (A/02), a fifth century uncial as well as Codex P/025 of the ninth century, and codices 046 and Codex 051 of the 10th century all agree with Codex ain their reading of 666 (with slight spelling differences). However, Codex C/04 of the fifth century has 616 spelled out with Greek letters as the number of the beast. So, it agrees with P115 as the only other ancient witness of this alternate text.

In summary, of the almost 300 Greek manuscripts containing Revelation, almost all of them state 666 as the number of the beast. The two oldest papyri are evenly divided in their reading, and over 80% of uncial manuscripts hold the reading of 666. 

So as far as you go, majority rules rather right or wrong.

I believe as you do that the most accurate manuscripts hold to the reading of 666, which is what Irenaeus believed stating that 616 was most likely a copying error.  The people he knew and those who spoke to John believed the number to be 666.  I accept the number as 666 not because it's in a fallible translation of an English Bible 1500 years later, but because it fits the text around it.  We now know what 666 means as relating to humankind and the beast.  Because 666 could not be adequately understood due to our lack of knowledge, we have that knowledge now through science and can confirm that the number is 666, not 665 or 616.  Science proves the Bible and the Bible proves science.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Saved.One.by.Grace
Clarification

[SavedOnebyGrace]

1 hour ago, dprprb said:

"Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast"  - the sum, in descending order, of Roman numerals used for counting is 1666 and the Romans were the imperial bad guys at the time.  I think we need more Scriptural accounting references because it could be 2/3 (Koide formula), upside down 999 or any modern evaluation that seems significant (multiple candidates). To that end , one Scripture that always stuck in my head is 2 Samuel 24 in the OT when God reprimands King David for counting his army which is a faith issue in battle and perhaps applicable in some manner here due to the battle with the anti-C.

I have no idea what you're talking about.  Would you dumb down your post for me?

[dprprb]

Sure. Lets just use Scripture to understand.  Opening the door to 'what does it mean' outside of Scripture is just going to result in numerology or synchronicity. I'm very interested in what other passages people will bring and how they will be connected. I think 2 Samuel 24 might fit well in that mix even though it may not be immediately apparent that it does.

[other one]

When you get right down to it, it really doesn't matter.

If you don't worship the beast you won't get to the point of taking the mark.......  you can't be tricked into taking the mark......   so we should just make sure we are tuned into the Holy Spirit for it is He that will get us through it all

[heretoeternity]

The question remains what is the mark of the beast? Is it a religious mark or worldly mark or both?

[brakelite]

http://www.666numberofthebeast.com/666numberofthebeast.html

[other one]

9 hours ago, heretoeternity said:

The question remains what is the mark of the beast? Is it a religious mark or worldly mark or both?

the mark of the beast could be most anything....   we can't know until the beast comes to power and attaches himself to it.  Once the world goes cashless, all accounts could be frozen until you get a purple smiley face put on your hand or forehead and would would keep your accounts frozen until you get one.....     though not likely, the purple smiley face would work just fine as the mark.