Paradigm shift in Christian thinking over 2000 years

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, everyone.

I think I may have started something like this a year or so ago, but I still feel that it is important to explore and correct, if possible.

Down through the last 2,000 years or so, we have made some MAJOR changes to terminology that I believe we as a people once knew and now have changed the meanings of those words into something that is now totally foreign to the first century meanings. Among these words that are so foreign to their original meanings are the following:

 

I believe that we should work toward a paradigm shift back to the original meanings of these words. There are others, of course, that could have been listed, as well, but these are the fundamental ones. And, I believe they are fundamental because to some they are especially "holy words" that "one should not touch" as far as trying to correct their meanings.

The major six are the ones in the circle: salvation, gospel, kingdom, Christ, church, and heaven. I started with angel and heaven, but one could start anywhere, because it is truly a "state function." That is, it doesn't matter how you get from point A to point B; it will take you the same amount of time and effort to make the journey.

Let me start with a few basics:

Will = want.

When one asks, "What is God's will for my life?" he or she is actually asking the same thing as "What does God want for my life?" This may break down into more particular questions, like: "What does God want me to do for a living?" "What job does God want me to have?" "Who does God want me to marry?" "Where does God want me to live?"

Faith = trust.

"To have faith in God," one must learn "to trust God." Connected to this is the adjective and adverb forms of the words: "To be faithful" = "to be trustworthy." When we say, "God is faithful," we are saying that "God is trustworthy!" that is, "He is worthy of our trust!" A "faithful" spouse is a spouse we can trust to be consistently devoted to us. A faithful person or a trusty person is one we can count upon. Faithfulness = trustworthiness.

There are certain words that are used in church or in synagogue on Sunday or Shabbat that have SYNONYMOUS COUNTERPARTS in life during the weekdays in other scenarios and workplaces.

Let's start with some fun. What are some other words that you use in church that have a different word you've noticed using in secular areas of your life? Let's see how many we can come up with.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom to all.

I'll just continue on until there's some response.

I could have added "soul" and "spirit" to the chart above, but "body" hasn't changed that much. Even from language to language, a body is a pretty concrete thing - a physical object. Therefore, there's not going to be as great a shift in the concretes, in the tangible things. Mostly, I've noticed this shift in the intangible, abstract topics.

One such topic that Dr. James Dobson of Focus on the Family tackled was that of "love." The word "agapee" (using a double "ee" for eta) is not just some vague emotion that some attribute to the word "love" today. He noticed, and rightly so, that children spell "love,"

"T-I-M-E."

That is, the word "love" is best understood by the simplest of minds as INVOLVEMENT and ATTENTION! THAT is the meaning of the original word "agapee." Thus, one of the FIRST paradigm shifts should be to change "love" from meaning a "feel-good emotion," to "involvement and attention!" That's what God meant by "love" and its opposite, "hate," when He said,

Romans 9:13-16
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
KJV

These words don't mean "a feel-good emotion" and an "animosity, a feel-bad emotion." They mean "involvement/attention" and "uninvolvement/ignoring!" God SPENT TIME AND EFFORT, positively (praise and blessing) and negatively (scolding and punishment), on Ya`aqov (Jacob) but IGNORED and AVOIDED Esav (Esau). He simply left Esav ALONE! Esav demonstrated that he wanted nothing to do with God; so, God wanted nothing to do with Esav. THAT'S the form God's "hatred" takes.

The only time in prophecy when God will react to Esav (Edowm) will be when Esav attempts to do evil to Israel, and that will be for Israel's sake, not Edowm's!

See how this will work? This is what I'm trying to get people to see in this thread.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Retrobyter
to fix a wrong word typo

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, everyone.

It's been a while since I posted in this thread; so, some will see this as a "resurrection" of this topic, but actually, I've just been away for a while dealing with some of the particulars that could have been included in this topic, like "soul" and "spirit," as mentioned above.

Another intangible particular that should be included is the word "resurrection" itself! There are some who see this as a "spiritual" attitude instead of an actual, physical event. Others see it as happening individually and "spiritually" at death instead of generally and physically applied to a group of people when the Master Yeshua` the Messiah returns. Some even say that, in Heaven, we'll have "spiritual" bodies, sometimes shortened to "spirit" bodies!

(Can anyone see why I really dislike the terms "spiritual" and "spiritually?" The terms "spiritual" and "spiritually" are not only misused and misunderstood, but they are the catch-all words that people will use to mean ANYTHING that has to do with "churchy" things. Since people don't have a good definition for these words, they should be AVOIDED in preference for more descriptive words that may take more effort to determine what to say! We don't have a good vocabulary; so, we tend to use terms we've heard all our lives IN SPITE of not knowing what they mean or knowing how they should be used in NORMAL, COMMON conversation.

In my opinion, such terms are JUST AS BAD TO SAY as words that are considered SWEAR WORDS! Both show a HUGE lack of vocabulary and a LAZINESS in the ability to THINK!)

Let's bring this back to reality. The resurrection is not primarily an event; it's a PERSON:

John 11:21-27 (KJV)

21 Then said Martha unto Jesus,

"Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee."

23 Jesus saith unto her,

"Thy brother shall rise again."

24 Martha saith unto him,

"I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

25 Jesus said unto her,

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth (Greek: ho pisteuoon , a present-tense, active-voice participle treated as a noun [like a gerund], a nominative, masculine, singular noun = "the truster") in me, though he were dead (Greek: kan apothanee = "and-even-if he-should-die-off"), yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die (Greek: ou mee apothanee eis ta aioona = "not [positively] not [negatively] shall-die-off into the age"). Believest thou this?"

27 She saith unto him,

"Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world."

Yeshua`s words at the end were "pisteueis touto," which literally mean "Do-you-trust-[me] about-this?" That's why Martha's answer was not impersonal but was directed to Him:  "Yes, Sir. I trust you to be the Messiah, the Son of God, who should come into this world-system." The reason why she could come to that conclusion is because, (1) as a good Jewess, she knew the prophecies about the Messiah to be King - God's Choice for Israel's King, and (2) she recognized Him as the fulfillment of those prophecies!   

Notice, too, however, that she WAS ALSO familiar with the prophecies about a resurrection at the last day [of this age].  The words "yet shall he live" is the one word "zeesetai." It's a 3rd-person, singular verb in its future tense, indicative mood, and middle voice, which means it is partially reflective. In other words, that one who shall live has the action performed upon him, but he is not the one responsible for the action.

Then, she got the chance to SEE the resurrection of her brother FIRST HAND!

John 11:38-44 (KJV)

38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it. 39 Jesus said,

"Take ye away the stone."

Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him,

"Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days."

40 Jesus saith unto her,

"Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?"

41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said,

"Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me."

43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice,

"Lazarus, come forth!" 

44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with grave-clothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them,

"Loose him, and let him go!"

Notice, however, that in the resurrection of her brother, Eleazar ("Lazarus") was quite alive physically! He was a dead body and suddenly he was an air-breathing, living body, again! He was a LIVING SOUL, again!

There's an apparent contradiction in terms in 1 Corinthians 15, but really, there's no contradiction at all:

1 Corinthians 15:42-49 (KJV)

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The contradiction comes into play IF one defines "spiritual" as "non-physical," as some do. Some contrast the "natural" (physical) with the "spiritual" (non-physical), but then what happens later when one reads:

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (KJV)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."

And, one shouldn't forget Yeshua`s words after His OWN Resurrection:

Luke 24:36-43 (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,

"Peace be unto you."

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit (a ghost). 38 And he said unto them,

"Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold (Check out) my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle (touch) me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,

"Have ye here any meat?"

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

So, He HAS "flesh and bones," a PHYSICAL body! And, we are told,

I John 3:2 (KJV)

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

So, we, too, shall have "flesh and bones" in our resurrection! And, therein is the perceived "contradiction." We shall be physical, like the Master, in the resurrection; we won't be "non-physical!" The apparent "contradiction" here is found in the faulty DEFINITION of the word "spiritual!" "Spiritual" does NOT mean "non-physical!"

Within 1 Corinthians 15, the term "spiritual" (Greek: pneumatikos) is contrasted with the term "natural" (Greek: psuchikos). It's the difference between "air-breathing" (the adjective form psuchikos from psuchee, meaning 'an air-breathing creature') and "air-BLASTING (the adjective form pneumatikos from pneuma, meaning 'a WIND')!" THAT'S the contrast, not "physical vs. non-physical!"

Hope this helps any and all who read it.

[DeighAnn]

On 11/28/2020 at 6:34 PM, Retrobyter said:

1 Corinthians 15:42-49 (KJV)

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The contradiction comes into play IF one defines "spiritual" as "non-physical," as some do. Some contrast the "natural" (physical) with the "spiritual" (non-physical), but then what happens later when one reads:

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (KJV)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,

I agree.  Spiritual is just as physical as is flesh.  

So when the spirit returns to the One who gave it, that is body and all.  Jacobs ladder pretty much says it all.  

[Retrobyter]

On 2/16/2021 at 6:36 PM, DeighAnn said:

I agree.  Spiritual is just as physical as is flesh.  

So when the spirit returns to the One who gave it, that is body and all.  Jacobs ladder pretty much says it all.  

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Actually, no. It's confusing to think that "when the spirit returns to the One who gave it, that is body and all," it doesn't involve our actual bodies that would be currently "sleeping" in the graves. Look. Resurrection doesn't occur at death. The Resurrection of the Just will occur AT THE SECOND COMING! (1 Cor. 15:20-28.) There's no such thing as a "spirit body." That's just nonsense. We need our PHYSICAL bodies (our true selves) to rise, so that, in the process, God shall transform those bodies into "soomata pneumatikon."

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Actually, no. It's confusing to think that "when the spirit returns to the One who gave it, that is body and all," it doesn't involve our actual bodies that would be currently "sleeping" in the graves. Look. Resurrection doesn't occur at death. The Resurrection of the Just will occur AT THE SECOND COMING! (1 Cor. 15:20-28.) There's no such thing as a "spirit body." That's just nonsense. We need our PHYSICAL bodies (our true selves) to rise, so that, in the process, God shall transform those bodies into "soomata pneumatikon."

 

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

OUR PHYSICAL BODIES GO BACK TO DUST.  WE NEVER AGAIN TOUCH, SEE, FEEL, HAVE USE OF, EXPERIENCE,  GET BACK TOGETHER WITH, that dead, rotting, decaying, corruptible body EVER AGAIN.  Never.  

 

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

1 Corinthians 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

1 Corinthians 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

1 Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

1 Corinthians 15:11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?   (THAT'S ONE)

YOU DO REALIZE THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING CORRECT??? 

EVERY TIME YOU WRITE YOU TELL ME  THERE IS NO RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, but there is going to be in the future.   

But YOU TELLing ME 'THERE IS GOING TO BE' DOES NOT NEGATED THE FACT THAT YOU ARE TELLING ME THERE IS NO RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD  now. 

YOU

Question ;  Have the dead resurrected?
Answer; NO, there is no resurrection of the dead UNTIL.... 

  
Me
Question; Have the dead resurrected?
Answer; Yes, THE DEAD RESURRECT



 

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
(THAT'S TWO)

IF THE DEAD ARE NOT RESURRECTING,  THEN JESUS CAN'T RESURRECT.  FOR JESUS TO RESURRECT 'FROM DEAD' THEN  THE DEAD MUST RESURRECT.  

EITHER 'DEATH' IS DEFEATED OR IT ISN'T.  IT ISN'T DEFEATED IT ISN'T DEFEATED FOR ANYONE.

THAT WOULD BE LIKE ADAM bringing death but WE ALL LIVED FOREVER UNTIL ONE DAY WE ALL DIED AT THE EXACT SAME TIME.  

CAUSE BY ONE MAN 'DEATH WHAT THE RULING LAW' ,  but  BY ANOTHER MAN 'LIFE BECAME THE RULING LAW'.  

THAT IS WHAT THIS CHAPTER IS ALLLLLLLLLLL ABOUT.  

 

1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
AGAIN IF THE DEAD DON'T RESURRECT, THEN CHRIST IS NOT RISEN.  IF THE DEAD DON'T RESURRECT UNTIL THE 'LAST DAY' THEN THAT would be the same day CHRIST WOULD RESURRECT.  

THIS ISN'T ROCKET SCIENCE HERE.  THIS IS AS BASIC AS IT GETS.  WHERE ARE YOU READING IN HERE ANY 'SEPARATION' OF TIME FROM DEATH TO LIFE????  WE PASS THROUGH DEATH, NOT LINGER, NOT SLEEP, NOT WAIT...

IF THERE WAS "A WAITING UNTIL CHRIST RETURNED'   WOULDN'T IT BE LISTED RIGHT HERE IN THIS CHAPTER????  

TRUE, THE OT PROPHECY WAS THAT THE MESSIAH WOULD COME AND EVERYONE WHO HAD DIED UNDER THE LAW WOULD 'RESURRECT' AT THE LAST DAY (CAUSE NO ONE COULD BE PERFECT UNDER THE LAW).  but THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST, THAT LAST DAY CAME WHEN HE DEFEATED DEATH.  FOR ALL OF US, NOT JUST HIMSELF.  HENCE GOING TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR US.  

 THE GRAVES OPENED.  THE DEAD ROSE.  THEY HAVE BEEN RISING EVER SINCE.  Another witness

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, EVEN SO THEM ALSO  which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

NOW  it may not bother others that THIS MUST BE CHANGED OR TWISTED SOMEHOW TO MAKE AN AT THE 'RETURN OF CHRIST' RESURRECTION WORK,  but IT BOTHERS ME.  

1 Corinthians 15:15 Yea, and WE ARE FOUND FALSE WITNESSES OF GOD BECAUSE WE HAVE TESTIFIED OF GOD THAT HE RAISED UP CHRIST,
WHOM HE RAISED NOT UP 

IF SO BE THAT THE DEAD NOT RISE. 
(thats three)

1Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

NOT IF THE DEAD ARE NOT GOING TO RISE, BUT RISE, and here we have ANOTHER place where the scripture must be changed or twisted to fit a 'Christ return' resurrection.  
 

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

ANOTHER PLACE NEEDING A 'CHANGE OR SLIGHT TWIST' to fit a 'return of Christ resurrection' as it would need to read  'of them that are still sleeping and will be remaining asleep until the return of Christ on the Lords Day.'  

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
AND HERE we go again.  It would NEED TO READ 'by man 'WILL BE COMING' the resurrection of the dead' ANOTHER 'twist or change' necessary here for there to be a future 'resurrection of the dead' on the day of the Lord.  

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Though the flesh dies WE DON'T.  And God even made sure we had a body for the journey.  

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
But every man in his standing, or rank, Christ the firstfruits, and finally those who are alive and remain at his coming. 

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 
The end of the millennium

1 Corinthians 15:25 For He must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
that would be SATAN.  Death is just another one of his names

1Corinthians 15:27 For He hath put all things under his feet. But when He saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under Him.
AND THE 'POSITION OF SAVIOUR' at the end of the millennium will be GONE.  

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1 Corinthians 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

1 Corinthians 15:30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

1 Corinthians 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

1 Corinthians 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

1 Corinthians 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

1 Corinthians 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

THERE ISN'T EVEN A QUESTION OF 'IS THERE A BODY THAT IS RAISED'?  THE QUESTION IS WHAT BODY IS RAISED?  

 

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
That spiritual body is not 'quickened' until the flesh dies

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
THAT DEAD FLESH CARCASS THAT KNOWS NOTHING GOES INTO THE GROUND, IT IS NOT THE BODY THAT SHALL BE, JUST 'THE SEED' THAT DIED FOR 'THE BODY INCORRUPTIBLE, SPIRITUAL, CELESTIAL TO BE QUICKENED/MADE ALIVE'.

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
EVERY SEED/PERSON/SOUL HAS HIS OWN BODY, two in fact.

1Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

1Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
Both lovely bodies, but the glory of each is different from one another.  

1Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

 

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: (aka spiritual body)

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Gonna need a little twist  or change here also to accommodate an 'and it will be raised at a later date' message.
 

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Let us make man in our image  BODY

1Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
From what I understand of that 'Lords return resurrection' story IS that 'corruption' IS INHERITING INCORRUPTION


MOVING ON TO THE MOMENT CHRIST RETURNS

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
SOME SAY THIS 'DEAD' are those who are 'asleep' (the ones Christ will be bringing back with him.  HOW THAT COULD EVER WORK I HAVE NO IDEA)
1.  THEY HAVE BEEN MADE ALIVE IN CHRIST - NOT MADE DEAD IN CHRIST.  'LET THE DEAD BURY THEIR DEAD'
2.  THEY PASS THROUGH DEATH UNTO LIFE
3.  THEY HAVE ALREADY BEEN RAISED

WHEN CHRIST RETURNS WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE WHO HAVE TAKEN THE MARK OF THE BEAST? 

WE KNOW THEY CAN'T RECEIVE THEIR IMMORTALITY,  AS THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN AND ARE CHANGED TO BE EVER WITH THE LORD DO, I HOPE

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

1 Corinthians 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


IMHO and I hope this clears up why I can't 'see' as you do.  I don't think CHANGING SCRIPTURE is OK when it is only being done to support a 'thought' that comes from a verse or two that may be out of context time and place.  

If 'last day' is as you believe to be 'the solid foundation', then why all the necessary changes here?  I think more investigating into what Christ accomplished, the beliefs that abounded at the time of Christ walking,  what happened to the 'kingdom being proclaimed and what would have taken place had it been accepted, would clear all that up.  

 

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

OUR PHYSICAL BODIES GO BACK TO DUST.  WE NEVER AGAIN TOUCH, SEE, FEEL, HAVE USE OF, EXPERIENCE,  GET BACK TOGETHER WITH, that dead, rotting, decaying, corruptible body EVER AGAIN.  Never.  
 

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Sorry, Sister, but that's just wrong. WE ARE our "natural bodies." The "natural body" is the Greek "sooma psuchikon," the "AIR-BREATHING BODY!" (1 Corinthians 15:44) Do WE "never again touch, see, feel, have use of, experience" again? OF COURSE WE WILL!

The physical body IS WHAT BECOMES the "spiritual" body, the "sooma pneumatikon," the "AIR-BLASTING SUPER-BODY!!!" They are NOT SEPARATE BODIES!!! We don't "change bodies" WE, the bodies we are now, BECOME NEW BODIES! WE ARE CHANGED!

1 Corinthians 15:51-57 (KJV)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery (secret); We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY! 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth (who gives) us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ (our Master, Yeshua` the Messiah)!

Don't you see? That's the BEAUTY of what Paul is telling us! These weak, unremarkable, corruptible bodies we are that will die and rot and decay after death ARE RE-MADE in the Resurrection! They are BROUGHT BACK TO LIFE! They are CHANGED from the weak, defeated, corruptible bodies into STRONG, GLORIFIED, INCORRUPTIBLE BODIES!

You're right in one sense, though; we will NEVER BE the weak, defeated, corruptible bodies that can die and rot and decay EVER AGAIN!

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

1 Corinthians 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

1 Corinthians 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

1 Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

1 Corinthians 15:11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?   (THAT'S ONE)

YOU DO REALIZE THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING CORRECT???

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! (And SHAME on you for accusing me that way!) The Messiah UNDENIABLY, IRREVOCABLY ROSE FROM THE DEAD LITERALLY!!! HE PHYSICALLY CAME OUT OF A PHYSICAL TOMB! HIS BODY IS NO LONGER THERE! HE IS RISEN INDEED! He got up out of His grave, appeared to many, ate fish and honeycomb, and allowed Himself to be touched and felt! HE WAS REAL! HE WAS PHYSICAL! HE WAS ALIVE AGAIN!

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

EVERY TIME YOU WRITE YOU TELL ME  THERE IS NO RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, but there is going to be in the future.   

But YOU TELLing ME 'THERE IS GOING TO BE' DOES NOT NEGATED THE FACT THAT YOU ARE TELLING ME THERE IS NO RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD  now. 

YOU

Question ;  Have the dead resurrected?
Answer; NO, there is no resurrection of the dead UNTIL.... 

  
Me
Question; Have the dead resurrected?
Answer; Yes, THE DEAD RESURRECT

And again, you are DEAD WRONG! There IS a Resurrection of the dead, but it is not happening NOW! It will happen at the SECOND COMING! That's what Paul SAID!

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (KJV)

20 But now is CHRIST (the MESSIAH) risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUITS of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; AFTERWARD THEY THAT ARE CHRIST'S AT HIS COMING.

"SHALL BE MADE ALIVE" "AT HIS COMING!" Look, when YESHUA` was raised from the dead, HE came back as that changed body that Paul talked about in 1 Corinthians 15. HOWEVER, when WE die, we don't immediately become His kind of a Resurrected body! Dig up any Christian you know (or at least, do it in your imagination), and you will find a body lying there, decaying and rotting and turning back into dust. WE must WAIT to be resurrected as our changed bodies.

We KNOW and are CONFIDENT that we SHALL be Resurrected because Yeshua` was so Resurrected! He is the FIRSTFRUITS of the Resurrection TO COME! NO ONE ELSE has been so resurrected!

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
(THAT'S TWO)

IF THE DEAD ARE NOT RESURRECTING,  THEN JESUS CAN'T RESURRECT.  FOR JESUS TO RESURRECT 'FROM DEAD' THEN  THE DEAD MUST RESURRECT.  

EITHER 'DEATH' IS DEFEATED OR IT ISN'T.  IT ISN'T DEFEATED IT ISN'T DEFEATED FOR ANYONE.

NO!!! That is an illogical conclusion! Also, Paul didn't agree with you! Read on...

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (KJV)

24 Then cometh the end (when there will be a SECOND General Resurrection), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For HE MUST REIGN, TILL HE HATH PUT ALL ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET. 26 THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE DESTROYED IS DEATH. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. (But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest (obvious) that he (He) is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him , then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Contrary to a LOT of fallible teaching, death was NOT defeated at the Cross! It may have been defeated for the MESSIAH, the CHRIST, but not for everyone! He shall destroy death at the END of the Millennium! That's what Paul said; that's what John said, and that's what Yeshua` Himself taught:

Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV)

11 And I saw a GREAT WHITE THRONE, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and THE DEAD WERE JUDGED out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And DEATH AND HELL WERE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

John 5:25-29 (KJV)

25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto THE RESURRECTION OF LIFE (at the Second Coming); and they that have done evil, unto THE RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION (at the Great White Throne Judgment)."

NO ONE IN THE BIBLE EVER TAUGHT THAT RESURRECTION OCCURS A LITTLE AT A TIME IN SOME FIGURATIVE SENSE!

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

THAT WOULD BE LIKE ADAM bringing death but WE ALL LIVED FOREVER UNTIL ONE DAY WE ALL DIED AT THE EXACT SAME TIME.  

ALL DID die when Adam and Chavah fell! We all died at the EXACT SAME TIME! All of the Creation began to die and decay from that moment on!

Read it again!

1 Corinthians 15:20-22 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

It's just easier to die than it is to be made alive again! Why is that? It's because we're now on a downhill slide! We are CONSTANTLY in a state of dying! Fortunately, God works life into us as bodies so that our living and growing cells OUTNUMBER the dying cells ... at first. That continues to be true until about the middle of our life. Then, the dying cells begin to outnumber the living and growing cells. When that happens, then it's just a matter of time until the dying cells become dying tissues, then dying organs, then dying systems (systems shutting down), and finally the body itself dies. THAT'S STILL TRUE TODAY! Miracles are the EXCEPTIONS and one must realize and admit that miracles are a TEMPORARY fix! Eventually, until the Lord Returns, WE ALL DIE, even those of us who were blessed with a miracle of healing!

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

CAUSE BY ONE MAN 'DEATH WHAT THE RULING LAW' ,  but  BY ANOTHER MAN 'LIFE BECAME THE RULING LAW'.  

THAT IS WHAT THIS CHAPTER IS ALLLLLLLLLLL ABOUT.  

Nope. This chapter is all about the RESURRECTION! You're reading into the Scriptures what you HOPE you will find.

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
AGAIN IF THE DEAD DON'T RESURRECT, THEN CHRIST IS NOT RISEN.  IF THE DEAD DON'T RESURRECT UNTIL THE 'LAST DAY' THEN THAT would be the same day CHRIST WOULD RESURRECT.  

THIS ISN'T ROCKET SCIENCE HERE.  THIS IS AS BASIC AS IT GETS.  WHERE ARE YOU READING IN HERE ANY 'SEPARATION' OF TIME FROM DEATH TO LIFE????  WE PASS THROUGH DEATH, NOT LINGER, NOT SLEEP, NOT WAIT...

IF THERE WAS "A WAITING UNTIL CHRIST RETURNED'   WOULDN'T IT BE LISTED RIGHT HERE IN THIS CHAPTER????  

It was and it IS! You're just not willing to read it as written!

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (KJV)

20 But now is CHRIST (the MESSIAH) risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUITS of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. (FUTURE TENSE!) 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; AFTERWARD THEY THAT ARE CHRIST'S AT HIS COMING.

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

TRUE, THE OT PROPHECY WAS THAT THE MESSIAH WOULD COME AND EVERYONE WHO HAD DIED UNDER THE LAW WOULD 'RESURRECT' AT THE LAST DAY (CAUSE NO ONE COULD BE PERFECT UNDER THE LAW).  but THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST, THAT LAST DAY CAME WHEN HE DEFEATED DEATH.  FOR ALL OF US, NOT JUST HIMSELF.  HENCE GOING TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR US.  

He didn't DESTROY death at His death and resurrection; He CONQUERED it. There's a SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE!

Revelation 1:4-7 (KJV)

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 THE GRAVES OPENED.  THE DEAD ROSE.  THEY HAVE BEEN RISING EVER SINCE.  Another witness

This is another misreading of Scripture, but I'll deal with it later.

 

[Whyme]

On 7/30/2017 at 1:31 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom to all.

I'll just continue on until there's some response.

I could have added "soul" and "spirit" to the chart above, but "body" hasn't changed that much. Even from language to language, a body is a pretty concrete thing - a physical object. Therefore, there's not going to be as great a shift in the concretes, in the tangible things. Mostly, I've noticed this shift in the intangible, abstract topics.

One such topic that Dr. James Dobson of Focus on the Family tackled was that of "love." The word "agapee" (using a double "ee" for eta) is not just some vague emotion that some attribute to the word "love" today. He noticed, and rightly so, that children spell "love,"

"T-I-M-E."

That is, the word "love" is best understood by the simplest of minds as INVOLVEMENT and ATTENTION! THAT is the meaning of the original word "agapee." Thus, one of the FIRST paradigm shifts should be to change "love" from meaning a "feel-good emotion," to "involvement and attention!" That's what God meant by "love" and its opposite, "hate," when He said,

Romans 9:13-16
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
KJV

These words don't mean "a feel-good emotion" and an "animosity, a feel-bad emotion." They mean "involvement/attention" and "uninvolvement/ignoring!" God SPENT TIME AND EFFORT, positively (praise and blessing) and negatively (scolding and punishment), on Ya`aqov (Jacob) but IGNORED and AVOIDED Esav (Esau). He simply left Esav ALONE! Esav demonstrated that he wanted nothing to do with God; so, God wanted nothing to do with Esav. THAT'S the form God's "hatred" takes.

The only time in prophecy when God will react to Esav (Edowm) will be when Esav attempts to do evil to Israel, and that will be for Israel's sake, not Edowm's!

See how this will work? This is what I'm trying to get people to see in this thread.

I have debated the word agape. Some people teach that its godly love. This can't be however because the carnal pharasees had agape love for the best seats in the house.

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Sorry, Sister, but that's just wrong. WE ARE our "natural bodies." The "natural body" is the Greek "sooma psuchikon," the "AIR-BREATHING BODY!" (1 Corinthians 15:44) Do WE "never again touch, see, feel, have use of, experience" again? OF COURSE WE WILL!

The physical body IS WHAT BECOMES the "spiritual" body, the "sooma pneumatikon," the "AIR-BLASTING SUPER-BODY!!!" They are NOT SEPARATE BODIES!!! We don't "change bodies" WE, the bodies we are now, BECOME NEW BODIES! WE ARE CHANGED!

I have never said we ARE NOT.  

I have always said WE HAVE 2 BODIES.  ONE of them DIES, the FLESH ONE and the other rises THE SPIRITUAL ONE.  

1Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

How many times have I posted these verses???

1Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

That BODY SOWN IS THE FLESH WHICH GOES BACK TO DUST, THAT BODY THAT RISES IS THE SPIRITUAL.  
SO AS I SAID, NEVER EVER EVER EVER AGAIN WILL WE TOUCH OR SEE OR FEEL OR  GET BACK TOGETHER WITH THE DECAYING CORRUPTIBLE ROTTING FLESH BODY.  

WHY WOULD WE?  WE ARE RAISED IN AN/OUR INCORRUPTIBLE BODY.  ONE THAT DOESN'T AGE OR GET SICK OR HAVE ANY OF THE PROBLEMS A FLESH AND BLOOD BODY DOES.  

                                                                            SO OF COURSE WE WONT


Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was (natural body)
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (spiritual body)

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, (natural body  Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.)

and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (spiritual body  contained  within Psalm 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: THOU HAST COVERED ME IN MY MOTHER'S WOMB  14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.  15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.  16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.)

SO, if we LEAVE the carnal DEFINITION OF THE WORDS, and THINK IN THE SPIRIT, not the LETTER, then GODS TRUTH may be found.  It will NEVER BE FOUND IN THE LETTER, no matter how many definitions we may know.  Gods Truth can ONLY BE FOUND IN THE SPIRIT.  I do not know how to explain it any other way at this time.  


THERE is only ONE MOMENT in all of time when 'those who are alive and remain' are changed.  That is at the very end of the flesh age.  Up until that moment Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Psalm 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away. 

 

John 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

John 11:10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

John 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

John 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

John 11:15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

John 11:16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.

 

John 11:22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.

John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.


John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in ME SHALL NEVER DIE  Believest thou this?


THE FORMER ENDS aka THE EARTHLY/TERRESTRIAL
TO BRING ABOUT WHAT NATURALLY FOLLOWS,
THE SPIRITUAL/CELESTIAL.
 

ME-  Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: (spiritual)

but I assume THIS is WHAT YOU are proposing we come back for. 

Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (natural)

 

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! (And SHAME on you for accusing me that way!) The Messiah UNDENIABLY, IRREVOCABLY ROSE FROM THE DEAD LITERALLY!!! HE PHYSICALLY CAME OUT OF A PHYSICAL TOMB! HIS BODY IS NO LONGER THERE! HE IS RISEN INDEED! He got up out of His grave, appeared to many, ate fish and honeycomb, and allowed Himself to be touched and felt! HE WAS REAL! HE WAS PHYSICAL! HE WAS ALIVE AGAIN!

NOT TALKING ABOUT THE MESSIAH WAS I?  

BUT WHAT DOES IT SAY HAS TO BE TRUE FOR THE MESSIAH TO HAVE RISEN?????????

IF THE DEAD DON'T RISE, NEITHER CAN HE.