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Events before the antichrist appears


Zoltan777

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On 7/30/2017 at 3:25 PM, Zoltan777 said:

I am wondering what you guys think what must happen before the antichrist appears.  What are the signs we Christians should be aware of?

We are told the son of perdition will be 'revealed', more than likely by an act, like Judas. Most will realize by the abomination that makes desolate, in whatever way you may think of that event at this time, some will have a good idea who he is beforehand but most will not believe such a honorable person could possibly be him. If we can't see through a Rick Warren we don't have a shot at seeing thru this guy.

The economic system the political system and the religious system will be married in a big way, the three legged stool Rick Warren talks about is a classic example and a sign of things coming. The world has always held a grip on these three elements from a centralized governing body, the dark ages in Europe under Rome and the Pope is a good example. and we are heading that way as the anomaly of freedom in the west gets squeezed. Move away from the Judeo Christian values associated with western democracy and we slide into, well, what's happening today.

A major sign is the amount of deception, Jesus warned of deception in Matth. 24 more than anything else. And not the cults like Mormons or JWs but false teachers in the church that Jude so profoundly came against and the apostles warned about especially in the later days.

And the first century church was full of Jews obviously since the first church was Jewish but today more and more Jews are coming to Christ pointing to the time of the Gentiles coming to a close. I've been told we need to go back to the first two centuries to find the numbers associated with salvation in the Jewish community today.

Things happen quick and especially these events when they come about. I believe, in part, it's what Jesus means when He says,"Behold I come quickly". 

IT ISN'T SO MUCH KNOWING AN ORDER OF EVENTS THAN IT IS KNOWING OUR MAKER. We will know as these things come about because we know Him and He knows us. Meaning we know the bible.

So a major event in world politics could shift the climate for this man to have the footstool to power. The Jews are in the land especially Jerusalem, deception is prevalent, wealth is great and armaments are plentiful. Religions are coming together, ecumenical unity, economics are tied together the language barrier is breaking down nature worship is arising, "worshiping the creation rather than the creator", and remember Judas especially, he faked caring for the poor because it actually enriched him being a thief and a lyre and gave him favor with others especially, and understand this, the disciples.

2 Thess. is very clear that day will not come until the man of sin is revealed.  Many will depart from the faith.

 

Edited by Zemke
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5 hours ago, Zemke said:

IT ISN'T SO MUCH KNOWING AN ORDER OF EVENTS THAN IT IS KNOWING OUR MAKER. We will know as these things come about because we know Him and He knows us. Meaning we know the bible.

I wish more people were of the same persuasion.  Its clear from the parable of the 10 virgins that being wise and knowing Him made the difference in being ready or not.  Being wise is acting on Jesus' teachings.  Knowing Him means keeping His commandments.  There's a theme there and it has nothing to do with how accurate your eschatology is.

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1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

I wish more people were of the same persuasion.  Its clear from the parable of the 10 virgins that being wise and knowing Him made the difference in being ready or not.  Being wise is acting on Jesus' teachings.  Knowing Him means keeping His commandments.  There's a theme there and it has nothing to do with how accurate your eschatology is.

"Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path." Psalm 119

'Give me oil in my lamp and keep it burning, give me oil in my lamp I pray, give me oil in my lamp keep it burning, keep it burning til the break of day.'

I believe that is a line from an old time pentecostal song.

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, Zemke said:

We are told the son of perdition will be 'revealed', more than likely by an act, like Judas. Most will realize by the abomination that makes desolate, in whatever way you may think of that event at this time, some will have a good idea who he is beforehand but most will not believe such a honorable person could possibly be him. If we can't see through a Rick Warren we don't have a shot at seeing thru this guy.

 

Hello brother. I agree we are told he will be "Revealed" but we differ a tad on what this means. I think it is kind of like Revelation means the curtain is taken away, in other words hes there before he is known to be whom he is, if you catch my drift. I guess it was the Judas comment that got me to thinking you were suggesting he will be placed into power by Israel, maybe that's not what you meant. Anyway, when the First Seal is opened then the Anti-Christ will be Revealed or shown to be who he is, not a "Man of peace" as he claims falsely, but a Dictator who desires to be worshiped as a "Human God". Israel never places him in a place of authority over them, they do sign a "Forced" Peace/Security Agreement with him, and he deceives them and others.

15 hours ago, Zemke said:

The economic system the political system and the religious system will be married in a big way, the three legged stool Rick Warren talks about is a classic example and a sign of things coming. The world has always held a grip on these three elements from a centralized governing body, the dark ages in Europe under Rome and the Pope is a good example. and we are heading that way as the anomaly of freedom in the west gets squeezed. Move away from the Judeo Christian values associated with western democracy and we slide into, well, what's happening today.

 

I agree with the Political System and the Economic System being intertwined, but the Religious System will be in total chaos in my honest opinion. For starters the Church will be Raptured and in Heaven by the time the Anti-Christ comes to power. It is my understanding through research that the Beast (The Anti-Christ becomes the BEAST when he Conquers Jerusalem) will destroy all Religions, he will not partner with Any Religion, he desires to be Worshiped as the ONLY GOD, why would any Dictator with Dark powers try to change the hearts and minds of 2 Billion Muslims? Hey you guys, I am GOD...Come worship me !! That is just not what a ruthless Dictator would do (They wouldn't anyway). In Daniel 8:25 it says he " Destroys (deceives) many through Peace so I think he gains Cred as the European President by solving the current Muslim problem in Europe, by coming down hard on "Radical Islam" and he also solves a World-wide economic collapse (he understands Dark Sentences = He solves Riddles and Conundrums with Dark Powers). This gives him leverage, and some Arab/Israeli conflict will give him the leverage to demand that HE and HE ALONE be the one that "Secures the Peace" in the Region, after all he has destroyed the Radical Muslim sects in Europe, so Israel falls for this via much pressure from the rest of the world. The Arabs also will go along seeing as Israel will disarm, they think in the future that gives them a chance at defeating Israel. So this BEAST has the power to protect the whole region, kind of like the USA protected Germany and Japan for years and NATO protects Eastern Europe. (ITS A MISTAKE OF COURSE). 

He then, half way through these Agreements (Covenants) with Many, will break these Agreements and ATTACK with a ruthless fervor never seen before. He will conquer the Arabs and Israel (Jerusalem) and he will destroy All Religions, Islam will be outlawed, as will All Religions, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. etc. He will demand to be Worshiped as the ONLY GOD. He is not going to "Unite Religions"...If you were trying to become a One World Dictator, who was going to Demand ALL PEOPLE Worship you as the ONLY GOD, would you try to unite all the Worlds Religions? Can you say DISASTER !! That is not going to happen, Satan is a brilliant tactician, he is going to destroy all the False Religions (The Harlot Rev. 17:16 is destroyed by the KINGS [Governments] thus she is no more).  He then tries to kill all the Jews but only kills 2/3, because 1/3 heed Jesus' warning and Flee unto the Wilderness. He then goes after the REMNANT of the Church and we know Remnant means a Small part that is left.

15 hours ago, Zemke said:

A major sign is the amount of deception, Jesus warned of deception in Matth. 24 more than anything else. And not the cults like Mormons or JWs but false teachers in the church that Jude so profoundly came against and the apostles warned about especially in the later days.

 

I think the Deception is by Anti-Christ, not Religious Entities. 

 

15 hours ago, Zemke said:

And the first century church was full of Jews obviously since the first church was Jewish but today more and more Jews are coming to Christ pointing to the time of the Gentiles coming to a close. I've been told we need to go back to the first two centuries to find the numbers associated with salvation in the Jewish community today.

Things happen quick and especially these events when they come about. I believe, in part, it's what Jesus means when He says,"Behold I come quickly". 

IT ISN'T SO MUCH KNOWING AN ORDER OF EVENTS THAN IT IS KNOWING OUR MAKER. We will know as these things come about because we know Him and He knows us. Meaning we know the bible.

So a major event in world politics could shift the climate for this man to have the footstool to power. The Jews are in the land especially Jerusalem, deception is prevalent, wealth is great and armaments are plentiful. Religions are coming together, ecumenical unity, economics are tied together the language barrier is breaking down nature worship is arising, "worshiping the creation rather than the creator", and remember Judas especially, he faked caring for the poor because it actually enriched him being a thief and a lyre and gave him favor with others especially, and understand this, the disciples.

2 Thess. is very clear that day will not come until the man of sin is revealed.  Many will depart from the faith.

 

I agree with much of this, except the Religions coming together as one and the very last Sentence/Verse.

The departing is not of the FAITH but the CHURCH DEPARTING....Nowhere is FAITH Spoken of in that passage, BUT..... a gathering together unto Christ Jesus is spoken of....the Church DEPARTS then the Anti-Christ is REVEALED both before the Day of the Lord, Gods coming Wrath.

Edited by Revelation Man
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2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Hello brother. I agree we are told he will be "Revealed" but we differ a tad on what this means. I think it is kind of like Revelation means the curtain is taken away, in other words hes there before he is known to be whom he is, if you catch my drift. I guess it was the Judas comment that got me to thinking you were suggesting he will be placed into power by Israel, maybe that's not what you meant. Anyway, when the First Seal is opened then the Anti-Christ will be Revealed or shown to be who he is, not a "Man of peace" as he claims falsely, but a Dictator who desires to worshiped as a Human God. Israel never places him in a place of authority over them, they do sign a "Forced" Peace/Security Agreement with him, and he deceives them and others.

I agree with the Political System and the Economic System being intertwined, but the Religious System will be in total chaos in my hones opinion. For starters the Church will be Rapture and in Heaven by the time the Anti-Christ comes to power. It is my understanding through research that the Beast (The Anti-Christ becomes the BEAST when he Conquers Jerusalem) will destroy all Religions, he will not partner with Any Religion, he desires to be Worshiped as the ONLY GOD, why would any Dictator with Dark powers try to change the hearts and minds of 2 Billion Muslims? He you guys, I am GOD...Come worship me !! That is just not what a ruthless Dictator would do. In Daniel 8:25 it says he " Destroys (deceives) many through Peace so I think he gains Cred as the European President by solving the current Muslim problem in Europe, by coming down hard on "Radical Islam" and he also solves a World-wide economic collapse (he understands Dark Sentences = He solves Riddles and Conundrums with Dark Powers). This gives him leverage, and some Arab/Israeli conflict will give him the leverage to demand that HE and HE ALONE be the one that "Secures the Peace" in the Region, after all he has destroyed the Radical Muslim sects in Europe, so Israel falls for this via much pressure from the rest of the world. The Arabs also will go along seeing as Israel will disarm, they think in the future that gives them a chance at defeating Israel. So this BEAST has the power to protect the whole region, kind of like the USA protected Germany and Japan for years and NAT protects Eastern Europe. (MISTAKE OF COURSE). 

He then half way through these Agreements (Covenants) with Many, will break these Agreements and ATTACK with a ruthless fervor never seen before. H will conquer the Arabs and Israel (Jerusalem) and he will destroy All Religions, Islam will be outlawed, as will All Religions, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. etc. He will demand to be Worshiped as the ONLY GOD. He is not going to "Unite Religions"...If you were trying to become a One World Dictator, who was going to Demand ALL PEOPLE Worship you as the ONLY GOD, would you try to unite all the Worlds Religions? Can you says DISASTER !! That is not going to happen, Satan is a brilliant tactician, he is going to destroy all the False Religions (The Harlot Rev. 17:16 is destroyed by the KINGS [Governments] thus she is no more).  He then tries to kill all the Jews but only kills 2/3, a 1/3 heed Jesus' warning and Flee unto the Wilderness. He then goes after the REMNANT of the Church and we know Remnant means a Small part that is left.

I think the Deception is by Anti-Christ, not Religious Entities. 

 

I agree with much of this, except the Religions coming together as one and the very last Sentence/Verse.

The departing is not of the FAITH but the CHURCH DEPARTING....Nowhere is FAITH Spoken of in that passage, But a gathering together unto Christ Jesus is spoken of....the Church DEPARTS then the Anti-Christ is REVEALED both before the Day of the Lord.

On the first point about him being revealed, Judas is an example of something happening that exposes who he really is. Your response is a good example of how we read into things even the word of God. Notice I said 'we'.

When was Judas ever placed into power?

On the second point the short answer is he comes as an angle of light. Yes he will be the most ruthless ruler ever but using Judas as an example again and one of the main types of anti christ in the New Testament being called the son of perdition by Jesus in John 17, and the only other person being called that name by that word is the man of sin, Thess.2. The disciples didn't know who he really was.

The woman rides the beast and then the beast turns on her. Nimrod did the same thing at Babel with his wife who controlled the religion of the day. It's the spirit of anti christ that has always been in the world and this world is still in the hands of it. John 5  New age religion is really a mixer of eastern and other ancient religions rehashed. Babylon the great is where all religions are going and will help the false prophet and the man of lawlessness come into power and sit him in a seat to be worshiped and then look out. It's the pattern of history.

Centralized power controling the economy, politics and religion is the history of the world, we live at the tail end of an anomaly. This freedom we have grown up in is rare and becoming rarer by the day. We simply take it for granted.

And yes the deception is of the serpent, it comes from the devil, he is the father of lies, but many are deceived and deceiving others by the very thing the serpent did in the garden, twisting the word of God. We all make mistakes but when pointed out we apologize and repent. Men like Kenny and Benny and Rick and Bill don't. they keep on going with the same old twist. They themselves are deceived and in turn deceive others. Big religious entities are exactly the place deception comes from because they are deceived by the serpent. "Come out of her my people."

Think about this, the world is already deceived and is a slave to sin. Who is it that the devil is after and wants to be worshiped by? He has the world, the serpent at some point turns to be the dragon and comes after the man child. Just like the King of Egypt and Herod that went after the Hebrew babies, it's pattern.

How many epistles can you read that don't warn of false teachers and prophets. If you want to know what things will be like before Babylon the Great look at what things were like with Gods' people before Babylon the former in Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah for starters. What was, is and will be. It's pattern.

Thess.2 reads very simple. Apostacy is apostacy and the man of sin will be revealed before that day happens. Most of what you have written is current event speculation mixed with and influenced by dispensational theology. There are truths in the theology but we all tend to approach prophecy with a tilted eye through some kind of lens. It's much simpler than we make it but far more deep than we are willing to go. It's disturbing and meant to be that way, the early church had fear and we should also, a little trembling is a good thing and the church in the west is about to be shaken. The rapture will not happen today. It's a misconception.

When these things begin to happen they will move quickly and time lines will be out the window. The most important aspect is do we have oil? Do we have Jesus? If we have Jesus we have oil. Biblical understanding is becoming more and more important and how many people come to church these days with one in hand? How many churches are teaching doctrine building believers in the faith?  I've heard hours of Rick Warren speak without directly mentioning Jesus or scripture. He has been asked to speak in front of Muslims and Jews never mentioning the gospel. Could you imagine Paul or Peter or James or Timothy having the floor and telling them how to have better growth and partnering to feed the poor and never preaching the gospel? The church is deceived! Mega churches in every town but look at our nation. We have no witness anymore, the new birth is a joke to people, judgement is coming and we are listening to hill song and people like Mark Driscoll. Our youth is being taken by clowns. No repentance, no revival.

 

 

 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Zemke said:

On the first point about him being revealed, Judas is an example of something happening that exposes who he really is. Your response is a good example of how we read into things even the word of God. Notice I said 'we'.

When was Judas ever placed into power?

That wasn't my thought/point, him being in power at all, it was Jesus being betrayed by Judas and many seem to think that the Jewish peoples accept this Anti-Christ as their Messiah (which they never do) and thus he is likened unto Judas who betrays Israel, after having been trusted by them. Like I stated, I seemed to think you were headed there and then it seemed you didn't quite go there, so I pulled back. Let me ask you, d you think Israel accepts the Anti-Christ as their Messiah? (No better way to find out than to ask).

47 minutes ago, Zemke said:

On the second point the short answer is he comes as an angle of light. Yes he will be the most ruthless ruler ever but using Judas as an example again and one of the main types of anti christ in the New Testament being called the son of perdition by Jesus in John 17, and the only other person being called that name by that word is the man of sin, Thess.2. The disciples didn't know who he really was.

 

Perdition only means hes going to Hell for eternity.

47 minutes ago, Zemke said:

The woman rides the beast and then the beast turns on her. Nimrod did the same thing at Babel with his wife who controlled the religion of the day. It's the spirit of anti christ that has always been in the world and this world is still in the hands of it. John 5  New age religion is really a mixer of eastern and other ancient religions rehashed. Babylon the great is where all religions are going and will help the false prophet and the man of lawlessness come into power and sit him in a seat to be worshiped and then look out. It's the pattern of history.

 

The Harlot = ALL FALSE RELIGION and she is Judged/Killed off, she is no more. No use going into great detail, I have a thread on Babylon, the Harlot and the Seven Headed Beast on this site.

 

47 minutes ago, Zemke said:

Centralized power controling the economy, politics and religion is the history of the world, we live at the tail end of an anomaly. This freedom we have grown up in is rare and becoming rarer by the day. We simply take it for granted.

And yes the deception is of the serpent, it comes from the devil, he is the father of lies, but many are deceived and deceiving others by the very thing the serpent did in the garden, twisting the word of God. We all make mistakes but when pointed out we apologize and repent. Men like Kenny and Benny and Rick and Bill don't. they keep on going with the same old twist. They themselves are deceived and in turn deceive others. Big religious entities are exactly the place deception comes from because they are deceived by the serpent. "Come out of her my people."

I don't know Bill, Rick or Kenny, but if you are speaking of Brother Benny Hinn and you can't understand hes of the Holy Spirit then I am very wary of your testimony. Way too many people go around tearing down our brothers in Christ Jesus, that's Satan's job not ours. Just because you do't have the same gifts as others, that doesn't mean they don't exist. The "Come out of her my people" is referring to Israel fleeing unto the Wilderness in the end times, it has nothing to do with the Church.

47 minutes ago, Zemke said:

How many epistles can you read that don't warn of false teachers and prophets. If you want to know what things will look like before Babylon the Great look at what things were like with Gods people before Babylon the former in Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah for starters. What was, is and will be. It's pattern.

 

Which means we need to be of God and of the Holy Spirit else we might be a False Teacher, when you get 200 different ideas of what Babylon is, I think you have a lot of people who are clueless, who are not called in certain fields but yet they think they are. They want to be a foot who they are called to be a hand. 

47 minutes ago, Zemke said:

Thess.2 reads very simple. Apostacy is apostacy and the man of sin will be revealed before that day happens. Most of what you have written is current event speculation and influenced by dispensational theology. There are truths in the theology but we all tend to approach prophecy with a tilted eye through some kind of lens. It's much simpler than we make it but far more deep than we are willing to go. It's disturbing and meant to be that way, the early church had fear and we should also, a little trembling is a good thing and the church in the west is about to be shaken. The rapture will not happen today. It's a misconception.

 

It has nothing to do with Apostasy. The first Seven English Translations stated DEPART or DEPARTING.

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

Rev. 19 can't happen without a Pre-trib Rapture first. 

 

 

When these things begin to happen they will move quickly and time lines will be out the window. The most important aspect is do we have oil? Do we have Jesus? If we have Jesus we have oil. Biblical understanding is becoming more and more important and how many people come to church these days with one in hand? How many churches are teaching doctrine building believers in the faith?  I've heard hours of Rick Warren speak without directly mentioning Jesus or scripture. He has been asked to speak in front of Muslims and Jews never mentioning the gospel. Could you imagine Paul or Peter or James or Timothy having the floor and telling them how to have better growth and partnering to feed the poor and never preaching the gospel? The church is deceived! Mega churches in every town but look at our nation. We have no witness anymore, the new birth is a joke to people, judgement is coming and we are listening to hill song and people like Mark Driscoll. Our youth is being taken by clowns. No repentance, no revival.

I don't know him.

Edited by Revelation Man
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5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 19 can't happen without a Pre-trib Rapture first.

Again, I must call you out for making unsupported statements as though they are facts. Especially as I and others, have already corrected you before. 

Revelation 19:1-3 is plainly about the martyred people whose souls are kept under the heavenly Altar. We know about them from Revelation 6:9-11 and they are allowed to cry out then. When God does take His vengeance on their killers, they again speak: praising God for their vindication. 

Using Rev 19 as a 'rapture to heaven' proof, just shows the total lack of any scripture about a rapture and makes all your opinions valueless. 

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4 hours ago, Keras said:

Again, I must call you out for making unsupported statements as though they are facts. Especially as I and others, have already corrected you before. 

Revelation 19:1-3 is plainly about the martyred people whose souls are kept under the heavenly Altar. We know about them from Revelation 6:9-11 and they are allowed to cry out then. When God does take His vengeance on their killers, they again speak: praising God for their vindication. 

Using Rev 19 as a 'rapture to heaven' proof, just shows the total lack of any scripture about a rapture and makes all your opinions valueless. 

You are off again on this subject brother. Those under the Alter are Tribulation Martyrs. I have never seen someone that just gets every issue wrong as per prophecy. Its not your bag it seems. Jesus tells the "Tribulation Saints" they must WAIT until their fellow brethren are killed also, which means they have to wait until the BEASTS 42 Month Reign is finished. They clearly say they want vengeance of the people ON EARTH who killed them, PRESENT TENSE. 

You have never corrected me, that's funny. 

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Dear Revelation Man

When we have prophetic doctrines or understandings these things will be consistent in the law and prophets. For example the life of Joseph in a brief outline; He was betrayed into the hands of the gentiles for silver where he was wrongly accused and wrongly convicted and sent to a place of condemnation where he was with two criminals, one given life the other death, and Joseph was taken from that place of condemnation and lifted to a place that all things were put under his control and when his brothers first saw him they didn't recognize him but the second time he revealed himself to them and they wept. Joseph a major type of the suffering servant first coming of Messiah.

Well you see the end of that statement is where I agree with dispensationalists, they understand there is a prophetic future and purpose for the Jews and Jerusalem and the land being central in biblical prophecy. Now I may disagree with other points but those things are up for discussion and not division but I want to point out that when we have a theory or idea of an understanding of prophecy somewhere in the scriptures that doctrine or understanding is illuminated in type in the Old Testament.

Paul is clear in Romans God is not done with the people to whom belong the covenants but yet many twists and turns in understanding come from ideas about Romans but as we see in Genesis in type the first time his brothers see him they do not recognize him but the second time he reveals himself to them and they weep. Zacharia says they will look on me whom they have pierced and they will weep. Confirmation that replacement theology is off. You see what is needed is biblical consistency so when we have ideas of understanding Revelation those ideas need to be subject to the rest of the scriptures.

And by the way very importantly. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth not error. He will not predict things that do not happen. Benny Hynn does. Anyone predicting things in the name of God or Jesus or the Spirit as Benny does, and these things do not happen, as is recorded for all to read about Mr. Hynn, by biblical definition is considered a false prophet.

There have been brothers who have talked with Benny and he has said he will change so we can pray he repents but you need to recognize there is something wrong in the mixture.

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

areYou are off again on this subject brother. Those under the Alter are Tribulation Martyrs. I have never seen someone that just gets every issue wrong as per prophecy. Its not your bag it seems. Jesus tells the "Tribulation Saints" they must WAIT until their fellow brethren are killed also, which means they have to wait until the BEASTS 42 Month Reign is finished. They clearly say they want vengeance of the people ON EARTH who killed them, PRESENT TENSE. 

You have never corrected me, that's funny. 

No; we have just told you where you are wrong and you ignore reproof and valid correction, to your shame.  The martyrs ask for vengeance and the Lord gives it to them in Revelation 18:1-24.  They thank God for it in Rev 19:1-3  They are NOT living people yet; until Revelation 20:4, and they are certainly NOT the Church. 

You avoided the issue of who the 'vast multitude of people ' in Rev 19:1, are.  If you believe they are the raptured Church, then I ask for clear scriptures that tell us when that happens. 

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