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Yowm

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On 9/3/2017 at 10:40 PM, missmuffet said:

Soul sleep is not what the Bible teaches. I guess you can give your own interpretation to the words of the Bible but that is not what God wants.

Shalom, missmuffet.

Rather, it is your OPINION that "soul sleep is not what the Bible teaches." IMO, YOU are giving YOUR own interpretations to the words of the Bible. They may not be your own interpretations personally; that is, you may have learned them from others, but this whole Christoplatonistic viewpoint is NOT biblical. The whole idea of "going to heaven when one dies" is FOREIGN to even the New Testament teachings! We are to be anticipating the SOON RETURN of the Messiah Yeshua` and the RESURRECTION!

And, if I'm right and you're not right, what do you suppose God would want then?

Edited by Retrobyter
to add a thought

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Consciousness after death?

Psalm 146:4 says thoughts perish at death. This cannot refer to a body without the soul, since a physical body alone does not have thoughts. Only the soul has thoughts, and they cease at death….

Many other passages [such as Psalms 6:5 and Psalms 30:9] support unconsciousness after death and do not make sense if only talking about the body….

This same message of an end of consciousness was evident when Adam sinned. God plainly told him he would return to dust, Genesis 3:19. Adam was not conscious before creation, and God made it clear he would return to that unconscious state. Thoughts occur in the brain, which stops functioning and starts decomposing at death. Thoughts perish at death, just as the Bible says in many different ways.

 

Solomon also supports soul unawareness:

But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing; And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10

 

These scriptures prove there is no conscious being for people after death.

The only people who will be brought back to life, will be those martyrs killed for their faith during the 42 month period of Satan’s control of the earth. Revelation 13:5-8 Plus the two Witnesses.

The parables about Abraham and Lazarus the beggar, are just homilies and every dead persons soul returns to its Maker, where it awaits the Great White Throne Judgement, at the end of time. Revelation 20:11-15, Daniel 7:9-10

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38 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, missmuffet.

Rather, it is your OPINION that "soul sleep is not what the Bible teaches." IMO, YOU are giving YOUR own interpretations to the words of the Bible. They may not be your own interpretations personally; that is, you may have learned them from others, but this whole Christoplatonistic viewpoint is NOT biblical. The whole idea of "going to heaven when one dies" is FOREIGN to even the New Testament teachings! We are to be anticipating the SOON RETURN of the Messiah Yeshua` and the RESURRECTION!

And, if I'm right and you're not right, what do you suppose God would want then?

Suit yourself.

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On 9/5/2017 at 0:13 AM, Keras said:

Consciousness after death?

Psalm 146:4 says thoughts perish at death. This cannot refer to a body without the soul, since a physical body alone does not have thoughts. Only the soul has thoughts, and they cease at death….

Many other passages [such as Psalms 6:5 and Psalms 30:9] support unconsciousness after death and do not make sense if only talking about the body….

This same message of an end of consciousness was evident when Adam sinned. God plainly told him he would return to dust, Genesis 3:19. Adam was not conscious before creation, and God made it clear he would return to that unconscious state. Thoughts occur in the brain, which stops functioning and starts decomposing at death. Thoughts perish at death, just as the Bible says in many different ways.

 

Solomon also supports soul unawareness:

But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing; And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10

 

These scriptures prove there is no conscious being for people after death.

The only people who will be brought back to life, will be those martyrs killed for their faith during the 42 month period of Satan’s control of the earth. Revelation 13:5-8 Plus the two Witnesses.

The parables about Abraham and Lazarus the beggar, are just homilies and every dead persons soul returns to its Maker, where it awaits the Great White Throne Judgement, at the end of time. Revelation 20:11-15, Daniel 7:9-10

Shalom, Keras.

For a change, I agree with you on this post. The only thing I would add is to this statement: "Thoughts perish at death, just as the Bible says in many different ways." We also need to recognize that the Resurrection is an act of Creation. In such a Resurrection, we will be reconstructed as we once were, complete with our thoughts, dreams, and hopes intact. If that weren't true, then we wouldn't be the same people we were before death. We have confident Scripture passages, as well:

Iyov (Job) said,

Job 19:23-27
23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins (sinews) be consumed within me.
KJV

David said,

Psalm 139:12-18
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest (microscopic) parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
KJV

GOD, who is truly omniscient - all-knowing, is the Repository for all our memories and thoughts, and He shall raise us to life with those memories and thoughts reconstructed as well as our "air-breathing bodies" - our "souls." We must be EXACTLY the same persons we were before we "fell asleep," or we will no longer exist. Then, the transformation of our bodies into the stronger, "wind-blasting," resurrected bodies will instantaneously follow.

Then, GOD locks in the changes with the following promises:

Revelation 21:3-7
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said,
Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

KJV
 

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On 8/2/2017 at 1:20 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Yowm,

1. Zech. 14: 5 `..and all the `quodos` sacred, holy ones with Him.`  (they can be angels or people - thus need more info)

2. Jud. 1: 14 ` ...with many thousands of His `hagio` sacred, holy ones.`  (they can be angels or people - thus need more info)

3. Rev. 19: 14  the army - angels are described as clothed with pure and white linen. (Rev. 15: 6) (thus need more info)

Jesus ALWAYS said that He was coming in power & great glory with all HIS ANGELS with Him. (Matt. 24: 30 & 31,  Matt. 25: 31,  Luke 9: 26,   2 Thess. 1: 7)

Marilyn.

Well researched and well stated.  Yohm's assumption is that "holy (ones)" means "raptured (ones)."  As well, I agree with Keras that the resurrection (incorruptible) body cannot come back to earth.  

That body is made to be with God in eternity, not for an earthly war.  

 

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On 9/16/2017 at 10:51 AM, GusWilby said:

Well researched and well stated.  Yohm's assumption is that "holy (ones)" means "raptured (ones)."  As well, I agree with Keras that the resurrection (incorruptible) body cannot come back to earth.  

That body is made to be with God in eternity, not for an earthly war.  

Shabbat shalom, GusWilby, and chag sameeach! Happy Ro'sh haShannah!

I'm not sure I've read Keras saying that "the resurrection (incorruptible) body cannot come back to earth," but if he did, then he would be as wrong as you are.

No, you're getting that from the Christoplatonic philosophy that was adopted early in the Second Century and following. Y'know, the "spiritual is good; physical is bad" mentality. (Read Randy Alcorn's book Heaven, Appendix A.)

First of all, "spiritual" is NOT the opposite of "physical." That's a LIE we've been led to believe. In 1st Corinthians, the word "spiritual" (Greek: pneumatikos) is contrasted with the word "natural," but "natural" comes from the word for "soul," "soul-ual" so to speak (Greek: psuchikos). The Greek word "pneuma," from which the adjective form "pneumatikos" comes, means a "WIND!" The Greek word "psuchee," from which the adjective form "psuchikos" comes, means an "AIR-BREATHER," as it was used in 1 Cor. 15:45:

1 Corinthians 15:44-49
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written (in Gen. 2:7), The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven (the sky).
48 As is the earthy (Greek: choikos = "dirt-like"), such are they also that are earthy (Greek: choikoi): and as is the heavenly (Greek: epouranios = "from above-the-sky"), such are they also that are heavenly (Greek: epouranioi).
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
KJV

Being quoted from Genesis 2:7, we can look at that verse as well:

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (Hebrew: nefesh).
KJV

Here, it's the word "soul" that was used for translation from the Hebrew word "nefesh." And, this word "nefesh" comes from its Hebrew root word, the verb form, "naafash":

OT:5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
KJV - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature,  dead (-ly), desire,  [dis-] contented,  fish, ghost,  greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath,  jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thyself-), them (your)- selves,  slay, soul,  tablet, they, thing, (X she) will,  would have it.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

OT:5314< naafash (naw-fash'); a primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
KJV - (be) refresh selves (-ed).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
 

The contrast, then, is not "physical-spiritual" but "air-BREATHING" and "WIND" or "air-BLASTING!" Both, however, are literal BODIES (Greek: soomata)!

Look at it from another perspective:

First, we are resurrected in the First Resurrection (and that INCLUDES those who were beheaded). However, that will occur BEFORE Revelation 19:11:

Revelation 19:11-21
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven (in the sky) followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
KJV

Thus, we shall PARTICIPATE in the "armies which were in the sky," having been already resurrected in our new bodies! By this point in history, Yeshua` will have ALREADY stained his clothes by "dipping them in blood." But, the final battle that is portrayed here doesn't happen  untli AFTER the announcement to the birds in verses 17 and 18! And, this all happens BEFORE Rev. 20:1-6:

Revelation 20:1-6
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV

 

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