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BobRyan

Post Trib Post Wrath Rapture at 2nd coming

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Matthew 24 "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect"

It is at the John 14:1-3 "second coming" where "I will come again and RECEIVE you to Myself that WHERE I am there you may be also".

Thus the "Dead in Christ rise FIRST" 1 Thess 4 at the "FIRST resurrection" Rev 20:4-5 that occurs at the second coming described in Matthew 24, and John 14:1-3 and Rev 19-20:5

One Bible detail that helps us keep all this straight is to remember that all Bible timelines are contiguous units themselves. So the 70 years of Jeremiah discussed by Daniel in Dan 9:1-6 are all "contiguous years" back-to-back. No inserting "gaps of undefined time length" into the middle of the contiguous 70 year timeline. All bible timelines work that way - including the 70 week (490 year) timeline.

Edited by BobRyan

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Matthew 24, which consists of more than the line of scripture you quoted, is in fact written for the Jews and not the Church. The Church has already been Raptured when the events that you quote take place. A "post Trib, post wrath Rapture does not lend itself to a literal interpretation of Scripture.

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46 minutes ago, Rick_Parker said:

Matthew 24, which consists of more than the line of scripture you quoted, is in fact written for the Jews and not the Church. The Church has already been Raptured when the events that you quote take place. A "post Trib, post wrath Rapture does not lend itself to a literal interpretation of Scripture.

Why then is this passage in Matthew 24?

  • Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.   Matthew 24:9

The Jews are going to be hated by all nations because of Jesus' name?

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"The Jews are going to be hated by all nations because of Jesus' name?"

They are now because they crucified Him. They will in the future because of the Anti-Christ and the tribulation Saints who will tell them to repent because of Christ. Jesus is a Jew, remember?

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Matthew 24 is specifically about Israel in the coming tribulation .... today's believers will all be made immortal just before

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18 hours ago, Rick_Parker said:

"The Jews are going to be hated by all nations because of Jesus' name?"

They are now because they crucified Him.

So all the nations hate the Jews because they crucified Jesus 2000ish years ago?  Any empirical data to back that up?

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18 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

 today's believers will all be made immortal just before

According to scripture, immortality for those in Christ happens at the last trumpet, the trumpet of God.  Can you find in the OT what Paul was referring to?

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1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

So all the nations hate the Jews because they crucified Jesus 2000ish years ago?  Any empirical data to back that up?

My last word: Why Do The Nations Hate Israel? Some common sense and understanding of Christian/Western history as well as Biblical discernment is necessary to understand the issues involved.

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14 minutes ago, Rick_Parker said:

My last word: Why Do The Nations Hate Israel? Some common sense and understanding of Christian/Western history as well as Biblical discernment is necessary to understand the issues involved.

Didn't think so.

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"According to scripture, immortality for those in Christ happens at the last trumpet, the trumpet of God.  Can you find in the OT what Paul was referring to?"

 

Paul is referring to the pre-tribulation immortalization of those who belong to Jesus Christ to occur just before the coming tribulation period .... this truth was revealed by Paul in Corinthians 15:51-38 and  1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

The first and last trumped of God for this revealed truth is one thing .... the Lord's trumpets of Revelation are for other things

Edited by Daniel 11:36
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      https://www.oneplace.com/ministries/love-worth-finding/read/articles/can-we-hasten-the-second-coming-of-christ-15204.html
      http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Timeline/Hastening.Lords.Return.html
      http://christianteaching.org.uk/blog/eschatology/hastening-the-return-of-christ/#comment-32538
      http://folkslisten.blogspot.it/2010/06/can-i-speed-up-return-of-jesus.html
      https://nathanaelflock.wordpress.com/2013/06/17/scriptural-conviction-hastening-the-day-of-the-lord/
      http://quailandmanna.com/god-justice/
      https://peteenns.com/why-jesus-hasnt-come-back-yet-according-to-the-new-testament/
      http://ifollowjesusnow.tk/hastening-ready-day-lord/
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIdjGyMTAds
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM67orv8VkYF
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      Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!



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      Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

      Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

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      Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.



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      Revelation 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

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      1 Thessalonians 5:9 NASB 9) For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
      Many think that we deserve punishment. Well, that might have been true, but as followers of Christ, we are of those who have agreed to and accepted His salvation. You see, you need to have a firm grasp on what Jesus did. I am continually trying to remind people that all sins were forgiven – past, present, and future. Then what are people being punished for? Look at what Colossians 3:5-6 tells us,
      Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. 6) For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, NASB
      Simply put, you either follow Jesus, or you follow the god of this world, Satan. He will go to an eternal punishment, as will all those who choose to follow him. This punishment, as many want to believe, is not the end-all statement, as God is a merciful God beyond everything else; ask Jonah. And that is why we have the sheep and goats of Matthew 25. Take the time to study that.
      Revelation 6:14-17 NASB 14) The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15) Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16) and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17) for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
      There are three things I want you to see here. Verse 15 gives us a description of some of the people affected by what is happening: kings of the earth; great men; commanders; the rich and strong, and every slave and free man. No one upon the earth is left unscathed by what is coming.
      In verse 16 we see them crying out to be hid from the presence of “Him who sits on the throne, AND from the wrath of the Lamb. This lamb is Jesus Christ. Since I used an example from the Revelation, let me point something out to you. This entire book is a Revelation of Jesus Christ. Even the rich, in this scenario, understood that God played a hand in this, and at the same time, they are acknowledging Jesus. It's all about Jesus.
      And the last thing, although I have already intimated it, is that this wrath is coming from God/Jesus.
      Since we are going to be like Bereans, a people who had enough sense to verify that what Paul was teaching was right, what then do we use as a basis for what is true? Keep in mind, that the Bereans did not have Bibles, they had some scrolls. Those scrolls were so valued that only a limited number of priests could handle them, and so the Torah and Tanakh were read aloud. This idea of scrolls changes the whole idea of Bible study. The Bereans had no New Testament, it was being spoken in their ears by Paul and lived out right in front of them. I, on the other hand, have over thirty translations of the Bible on my computer, and over forty commentaries that I can glean from. I have no excuses.
      The answer to the question is The Word of God. Now, since we know that there are errors across translations, is it wise to merely open the NIV for example, read it, and then say, “this is how that is supposed to be understood!” NO, because, as I said, there are errors. (Do not for a moment think that these errors are on God's part, as God's wisdom has been substantiated by His ability to get His message across plainly to those who choose to pursue this wisdom.)
      So, what am I saying to you? Be open but alert; trust the Holy Spirit to guide you; judge everything against the word of God, and, remove yourself, if you can, from false teachers. They will corrupt you with the simplest of things, such as David conquering Goliath when David was only four foot tall. That is not even close to the terminology used in the descriptions of David. King Saul, who knew David well for David was his ARMOR bearer, called him a youth. But what does that mean? Are these things critical to the story? NO, but if you are willing to build false images about the nature and character of David, what else will a false teacher do with God and His word.
      I can tell you what some will do, for I have experienced this first hand. These false teachers send everyone that comes to the Great White throne judgment to hell. There is nothing about that scenario that definitively points to that happening; these same teachers refuse to see that Matthew 25 and the story of the sheep and the goats, is just another picture of the Great White Throne. In other words, they will twist the gospel so tightly that in time, you will not be able to understand what is true.

       

       

       
    • By Mary8
      The Feasts Fulfilled
      from 18 Feb 1991ml   I have made some changes.  See end for notes.

      Passover
         Jews in ancient Israel were required to go to Jerusalem to celebrate three feasts, Passover, Pentecost, and in the autumn, Trumpets.
         Jesus fulfilled Passover which occurred on a full moon, the 14th day of the month Nisan. 
         Passover celebrates the Exodus from Egypt, which bespeaks salvation, escape, deliverance.
         Nisan 1 commences at the New Moon, as do all months on the Jewish calendar.  This month should mark the beginning of the year by Jews (rather than in September/October as they presently observe, the Civil Year.)
         Ex. 12:1-3:  "And the Lord spoke unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, This month shall be unto you the beginning of months:  it shall be the first month of the year to you.  Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb .... a lamb for an house."
         Jesus, the slain Lamb, is the only acceptable sacrifice, and believers trust in the Blood of the Lamb and are thereby saved.

      Unleavened Bread
         Jesus fulfilled the Feast of Unleavened Bread which commenced the same day as Passover, on the 14th day of Nisan, and it was a seven day period of eating bread without leavening, which represents sin.  This feast was fulfilled before God only, as Jesus, the sinless one was lifted up before God.

      Firstfruits
         Jesus fulfilled Firstfruits by arising from the grave on the third day after His death.  The term Firstfruits refers to the first sheaves of barley which were ready to cut and Jesus's resurrection is the  fulfillment.  [Lev. 23:10.]  Many saved people were also resurrected from their graves and walked about the Jerusalem area at the time of Jesus's resurrection.  This first group of resurrected saints compares to the Rapture of believers as the world goes on around the event.
         I believe the Rapture of the Church is shown in the following Scriptures.  Jesus the grain, died, brought forth much fruit, and His Church is likened to a harvest of grain.  Jesus often likened Himself to a husbandman also, and here He is waiting for the precious fruit, the gathering of the harvest of souls.
         John 12:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
         James 5:7  Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
         The barley and wheat harvests in Israel are the early crops, with the earliest, the barley harvest completed in April, and the wheat completed in May.  This year of 2018, Passover commences Friday evening, March 30, and the counting of the days, Lag b'Omer, and Omer 1 starts on March 31.  Jesus arose on Firstfruits, "the morrow after the Sabbath," Sunday, and in 2018, Firstfruits is Sunday, April 1, through Saturday, April 7.   The Lag b'Omer ends on the 50th day, the morrow after the Sabbath, which is Pentecost.  Lev. 23.  Centuries ago, the Jewish calendar was changed, and Pentecost was shifted from always being on a Sunday 'the morrow after the Sabbath,' to Sivan 6.  This year of 2018, Sivan 6 happens to fall on Pentecost Sunday.  
         These days are for me a time of considering whether He may gather us during the period of the grain harvest.
          Lev. 23:10-11 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:  And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. 
         The people were not to eat of the grain until it had been waved before the Lord.
         We see a picture of a time of rejoicing for Israel revealed in the story of old Naomi, and her restoration and joy in having a little boy to care for in her old age.  Ruth was married and taken into Boaz's house and lifted out of her time of gleaning in the field.  The son of Boaz, Obed, is born.  Others have noted that the book of Ruth is like the story of the Church and the Lord Jesus, and I think there is also this parallel to Israel revealed in Naomi's story, that Jesus is like Boaz, and when He and the Church are wed in heaven, a son will be born, the sealed servants in Israel. 
         Naomi will be brought back to joys she had thought were lost forever.  Just as Obed means "serving," so the end time, 144,000 believing Jews will be excellent servants of God  as we are told in Revelation.  Naomi means "pleasantness" but she said she had become bitterness.  Naomi's joy will return.   Other types of these victorious, believing Jews are seen in the three young men in the fiery furnace; in Elisha; and in Ephraim, the younger son of Joseph; and in Benjamin.

      Pentecost
         I believe the harvest of grain in springtime points to the season of the coming of the Lord for His believers.  The increase of the grain, the harvest reveals the way He has multiplied His believers like a sower who cultivates His field.
         Pentecost celebrates the giving of the law, and occurs after seven sabbaths, on a Sunday ("the morrow after the sabbath") according to Scripture, (making it another reason for us to worship on Sunday, the day Christ arose). 
         This fulfillment occurred when the Holy Spirit fell upon the gathered believers, as Jesus had promised.  He came with a noise of a mighty wind, and the separated 120 believers saw the flames of fire on one another's heads.  Believers spoke in other tongues, telling about Jesus to people of other nations.  Just as fire came on Sinai as the law was given, so fire came on the Church in Jerusalem.
         Observance on Sunday has been set aside by the Jews as explained above.
         Tradition says that Enoch was born on Pentecost and was also taken up by God on Pentecost.

      Feast of Trumpets
         Next is the Feast of Trumpets, a convocation of trumpets, and all Jews are to gather in Jerusalem.  Some think the convocation of trumpets will be fulfilled  by believers going up to heaven, being gathered to Him, and that Jesus, as High Priest, will blow the trumpet ['the trump of God'  I Thes.]  just as occurred at this feast in Israel near sundown on the evening before the new moon of Tishri 1 when the High Priest blew the shofar to gather the people, who were to immediately go to the temple.

      The Day of Atonement
         The Day of Atonement was a solemn fast day when the Jews were not to work.   For thousands of years, annually on this day the High Priest went into the Holy of Holies and sprinkled the blood of a sacrifice and interceded for the people.  A rope was tied around his ankle in order to pull him out if he died in there and the sacrifice was not accepted.  Jesus went into the Holy of Holies before the Lord and made an atonement for us by the sprinkling of His own Blood. 
         After the Rapture of the believers, there will be, I believe, an awed multitude of Jews  who see that something has happened and many will seek the Lord.  I think this time of shock is revealed in the first chapter of the Book of Joel, and that following chapters describe the tribulation and their comfort as they find God has not forsaken them.  (I have done a little study on Joel which indicates my reasons.)  Jesus has made our atonement and we won't ever experience the earthly fulfillment of that dreadful dark period. 
         I believe the Jews will experience great revival and miracles, and will believe and evangelize.  The tremendous outpouring of God's Spirit as related in Joel will fall upon them.  I believe "Ephraim" was born in 1948, as Israel became a nation.  During the terrible time of God's wrath outpoured upon the sinful earth, Israel will experience great things.  I believe this is borne out in books of the Old Testament and in the Book of Revelation.  Far from the Jews staying behind to experience only curses, I believe many will believe and please the Lord.  They will become a true witness, just as the three young men in the fiery furnace in Daniel, and the Lord will be manifested among them!  They will live through terrible times as they wait to see Him.  No wonder that He said blessed are those who believe without having to see.
         Believers have received the Blood of the slain Passover Lamb,  His offering of Unleavened Bread, and we have taken the symbols of His Blood in the wine and His body in the broken bread.  We have believed in Firstfruits, with Jesus raised from the dead,  like a grain of wheat buried, seemingly dead, and then sprouted in new life.  We have experienced Pentecost and are in a time of waiting and watching for Jesus to come.  We will never again experience a day of crying out and seeking an atonement because Jesus is our all in all.

      Tabernacles, Booths, Succot
         At this feast, all Jews were to go up to Jerusalem for the great gathering of the people.   They were told by the Lord to live out of doors for a week in little booths made of tree limbs and branches to remind them of the way God had protected them in their sojourn from Egypt.  Tabernacles commences on the full moon, the harvest moon.  Most of the crops are in, the grape harvest is ending in September. 
         The olive will be harvested during September, October, November.
         Revelation mentions the pressing of grapes was the time of His wrath.
         Are the 144,000 believing Jews like olives, pressed, yielding precious oil?  The two witnesses of the Book of Revelation are likened to two olive trees.  The olive harvest and pressing reminds us of the oil being used for the Menorah lamp. We know that the grapes of wrath reveal the wicked. 
         Tabernacles will be fulfilled by the Lord setting His Throne in Jerusalem so all the saved would come up to it, since it is on a mountain, Mount Olivet.
         Remaining Jews will experience the time of Jacob's trouble and consider the fulfillments of some of the feasts, and realize what the Lord has done.  The periods of time spoken of by the prophet Daniel will commence to be fulfilled.
         The Lord has a marvelous plan for the Jews.  He will mightily undertake for them, and just as Joseph dealt with his brothers and restored them to himself in a time of great famine, so the Lord will undertake for them in the dark days prophesied in the Scriptures, and they will be restored to Him with tears of joy. 
         We are soon coming to the sunset, it seems to me.  In the twilight after we believers are gone, the Day of the Lord will commence. 
         The sun was darkened when Jesus died, and the Jewish day commences at sunset, and with it begins the dark Day of the Lord.  The Day of Atonement will come and stretch on as the Jews seek God's salvation in that awful time. 
         The seven years start with the covenant of the evil one and Israel, but there could be some intervening time between the Rapture and the start of the Tribulation.  The time of Jacob's trouble will commence, the time of Daniel's seventieth "week."  Greater things than the Exodus will occur.  Afterward, Tabernacles, and then the light of the new day will come, the thousand year earthly reign of Christ here on earth.  And He shall reign forever and ever.
         Some say the Church will go through the tribulation, that God fulfilled the spring feasts in a mighty way on the earth, but that both believers and unbelievers will move together into the tribulation.
         Jesus will set up His kingdom on earth, and sit upon the throne of David, and rule the earth from Jerusalem.  Every year, all people of the earth will come to worship Him there or they will have no rain, according to Zechariah.  Jesus will reign one thousand years, and turn all over to His Father for eternity. 
         Blessed be the Name of the Lord!  

      *****
      Notes, 26 March 2018: 
         I want to say a bit more about a group referred to by various names: NAR New Apostolic Revolution, Latter Day Rain, MSOG or Manifest Sons of God, Kingdom Now, Dominion Theology, Identity.  They and others teach against pre-tribulation Rapture and that Jesus will not come until believers take over, have dominion over the world.   I've read that they believe that the office of Apostle can be conferred by the laying on of their hands, and that the Church has replaced Israel, Replacement Theology.  
         In 2018, Paul Smith of Calvary Chapel states that the "New Evangelical"  outlook, which I think is spreading among some churches, is that Jesus is gradually coming into hearts.   [So many are being taught to not take the Scripture literally as to Jesus' return.]
         I visited a Manifest Sons type of group with an acquaintance, in 1980s, for their large Feast of Tabernacles meetings and celebration, and it took me awhile, but I realized, 'What about the blessed hope?'  
         I take the Scriptures literally and decided the blessed hope is the hope of His coming for believers -- not death, not tribulation, not being hidden in Petra in the mountains southwest of Jerusalem. 
         I'm surprised, but these post-tribulation ideas are still growing and are found among many.  The Manifest Sons group has their main weekly meeting on Saturday, is allied with "CCC" Christ Community Churches.  Dominion Theology people preach that the Church must bring the earth under control before Jesus can come again.
         We will benefit from comparing Scriptures about 1) the grain harvest 2) the coming for the Bride 3) the householder on a journey who exhorts his servants to watch, and will learn much by looking again at the parables of Jesus.
         All unbelieving people left behind at the Rapture will live during the Time of Jacob's trouble.  God's plan will be fulfilled and many will be saved, but many will die, many will be executed, and suffering will be great.   One hundred forty four thousand Jewish men from the tribes will evangelize and many will believe.  After the departing of the Church, the Scripture will be fulfilled, Jeremiah 8:20  The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.  
         The book of Joel chapter 1 speaks of an event that has occurred:  "The word of the LORD that came to Joel the son of Pethuel. Hear this, ye old men, and give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land. Hath this been in your days, or even in the days of your fathers?  Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation."  Verse 7: "He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white."   Does this event point to the missing believers and realization by Jews that they had not recognized Messiah, or does it indicate there has been a military attack on Israel?
         Specifics for events in the time of tribulation can be found in Daniel and in the Book of Revelation.
         The evil man will arise and set up world government and eventually enter the Temple in Jerusalem, saying he is God, and the most awful times will occur.  Great numbers of new believers, who will refuse to take his mark, will be beheaded.  Eventually, as Jesus warned, some will flee Jerusalem and hide in the mountains to the southeast, and be sustained by the Lord. 
         Evil unbelieving people of the tribulation are compared to a harvest gathering of grapes, to be crushed.
         Believers during the Time of Jacob's trouble might be compared to the olive harvest, the last harvest of the agricultural year, and the pressing of the olives.
         After a specific number of days, Jesus will come with all His saints, on white horses and clothed in white linen, and He will split Mount Olivet in Jerusalem, east to west.  He will slay all His enemies upon the earth by the word from His mouth.  Some people will live through the tribulation and have children, in a time of peace, blessing, abundance.  Satan will be bound, Rev. 20.
         Rev. 19:8  And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
         We look forward to His gathering of His grain harvest.  Rev. 22:20  Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
         
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