Post Trib Post Wrath Rapture at 2nd coming

[Last Daze]

3 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Paul is referring to the pre-tribulation immortalization of those who belong to Jesus Christ to occur just before the coming tribulation period .... this truth was revealed by Paul in Corinthians 15:51-38 and  1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

The first and last trumped of God for this revealed truth is one thing .... the Lord's trumpets of Revelation are for other things

I guess the main thing is that we stay alert until God sounds the last trumpet.

[Daniel 11:36]

No doubt

[Zemke]

22 hours ago, Last Daze said:

According to scripture, immortality for those in Christ happens at the last trumpet, the trumpet of God.  Can you find in the OT what Paul was referring to?

Well that's the excellent place to start. So far as I can tell there are the silver trumpets, man made, and the rams horn, God made. The metal trumpets could be blown at any time, especially when the Israelites were to leave camp.  The rams horn had specific dates and times associated with them, set and ordered.

In Numbers 10 the last two trumpet blasts are for the eastern camp and for the southern camp to move out. Interestingly enough Jerusalem buried their dead on the east and most people lived on the south. I know Numbers is speaking of the camp and tabernacle but ironic enough the dead in Christ rise first and then those that are alive and remain are taken.

Anyway the battle of Jericho has series of seven with another series of seven coming out of that with silence and trumpets blasts and is specific in stating the horns are rams horns. Exodus 19 has Moses bringing the Jews out of the camp to meet God and the first time the trumpet is mentioned the word for it is rarely used but it is specific as being a metal trumpet. The term shofar is used across the board or generic so to speak when speaking of the trumpet blasts and we need to look at context to understand if it's a ram or silver. But these two places, Exodus and Joshua, are specific.

So from what I can tell up to this point or so far is the last trump in Revelation is not the last trump Paul is speaking of. The Revelation trumpets are more than likely rams horns having set times and are associated typologically with Jericho which is ram horn specific. The trump Paul is referring to is the last trump for the camp to move out and the trump that grew louder and louder when Moses brought out the people from the camp to meet God at the mountain. The last trump is associated with a silver trumpet.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Zemke

[Last Daze]

13 hours ago, Zemke said:

Well that's the excellent place to start. So far as I can tell there are the silver trumpets, man made, and the rams horn, God made. The metal trumpets could be blown at any time, especially when the Israelites were to leave camp.  The rams horn had specific dates and times associated with them, set and ordered.

In Numbers 10 the last two trumpet blasts are for the eastern camp and for the southern camp to move out. Interestingly enough Jerusalem buried their dead on the east and most people lived on the south. I know Numbers is speaking of the camp and tabernacle but ironic enough the dead in Christ rise first and then those that are alive and remain are taken.

Anyway the battle of Jericho has series of seven with another series of seven coming out of that with silence and trumpets blasts and is specific in stating the horns are rams horns. Exodus 19 has Moses bringing the Jews out of the camp to meet God and the first time the trumpet is mentioned the word for it is rarely used but it is specific as being a metal trumpet. The term shofar is used across the board or generic so to speak when speaking of the trumpet blasts and we need to look at context to understand if it's a ram or silver. But these two places, Exodus and Joshua, are specific.

So from what I can tell up to this point or so far is the last trump in Revelation is not the last trump Paul is speaking of. The Revelation trumpets are more than likely rams horns having set times and are associated typologically with Jericho which is ram horn specific. The trump Paul is referring to is the last trump for the camp to move out and the trump that grew louder and louder when Moses brought out the people from the camp to meet God at the mountain. The last trump is associated with a silver trumpet.

I tend to agree that the last trumpet is not the seventh trumpet in the Revelation series.  Those trumpet are sounded by the seven plague angels, not God Himself.  The trump of God is unique to Him, and based on the following verses, I see it as the voice of His authority.

• Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.  John 5:28-29
• And the Lord will cause His voice of authority to be heard, and the descending of His arm to be seen in fierce anger, and in the flame of a consuming fire in cloudburst, downpour and hailstones.  Isaiah 30:30
• It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the Lord in the holy mountain at Jerusalem.  Isaiah 27:13

I think the voice of His authority was the trumpet sound that the children of Israel heard at Mount Sinai that became nearly unbearable.  I consider that to be the first trumpet of God.  I believe that the last trumpet of God is found in Zechariah 9:14.

Then the Lord will appear over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,
And will march in the storm winds of the south.

While I don't see the seventh trumpet as the last trumpet of God, I do think that Zechariah 9:14 happens just subsequent to the sounding of the seventh trumpet, when God takes His great power and begins to reign.

[BobRyan]

the rapture - is the 2nd coming...

 

It is after the tribulation.

How about Matt 24?

²⁰ But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. ²¹ For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. ^...

²⁹ “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ³⁰ And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. ³¹ And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

It is just ONE event - the second coming:

John 14:1  “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. ² In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. ³ If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

 

It is sudden and surprising

Matt 24 ³⁸ For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, ³⁹ and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

1 Thess 5: . ² For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. ³ For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. ⁴ But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

2 Thess 1: ⁶ For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, ⁷ and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, ⁸ dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. ⁹ These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction

[Zemke]

On 8/8/2017 at 9:20 AM, Last Daze said:

I tend to agree that the last trumpet is not the seventh trumpet in the Revelation series.  Those trumpet are sounded by the seven plague angels, not God Himself.  The trump of God is unique to Him, and based on the following verses, I see it as the voice of His authority.

• Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.  John 5:28-29
• And the Lord will cause His voice of authority to be heard, and the descending of His arm to be seen in fierce anger, and in the flame of a consuming fire in cloudburst, downpour and hailstones.  Isaiah 30:30
• It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the Lord in the holy mountain at Jerusalem.  Isaiah 27:13

I think the voice of His authority was the trumpet sound that the children of Israel heard at Mount Sinai that became nearly unbearable.  I consider that to be the first trumpet of God.  I believe that the last trumpet of God is found in Zechariah 9:14.

Then the Lord will appear over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,
And will march in the storm winds of the south.

While I don't see the seventh trumpet as the last trumpet of God, I do think that Zechariah 9:14 happens just subsequent to the sounding of the seventh trumpet, when God takes His great power and begins to reign.

Ya those are some wonderful scriptures. And next time, and soon, I venture into this subject I'm starting with them. I love how over time pieces come together. After all it's the sum of the word and we always need to be praying and waiting for further understanding of the prophetic word.

When we go thru certain trials a Psalm can speak to us thru His Spirit like never before even having read it dozens of times and sat in multiple teachings. Revelation material is kind of the same way, the closer we are the more understanding, the closer we approach an object the clearer it becomes. Well that's the nature of the term apacolypse. Daniel was told to seal these things up until the time of the end. Well I believe there are so many arguments over these scriptures because we are approaching that day. If there ever was a time, and it's always time, to seek in prayer, understanding and wisdom, about these things it's now.

Thanks for sharing those scriptures and I'm sure over the next week they will take me somewhere interesting.

[Last Daze]

16 minutes ago, Zemke said:

 If there ever was a time, and it's always time, to seek in prayer, understanding and wisdom, about these things it's now.

I couldn't agree more.

[frienduff thaylorde]

On ‎8‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 5:07 AM, BobRyan said:

the rapture - is the 2nd coming...

 

It is after the tribulation.

How about Matt 24?

²⁰ But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. ²¹ For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. ^...

²⁹ “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ³⁰ And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. ³¹ And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

It is just ONE event - the second coming:

John 14:1  “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. ² In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. ³ If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

 

It is sudden and surprising

Matt 24 ³⁸ For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, ³⁹ and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

1 Thess 5: . ² For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. ³ For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. ⁴ But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

2 Thess 1: ⁶ For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, ⁷ and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, ⁸ dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. ⁹ These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction

Hey Bob.   you should have them read second thessalonians.     the FIRST chapter.   While many have been busy twisting the heck out of the second chapter to try and fit the pre trib.

THEY keep overlooking the first chapter.   The Rapture IS the SECOND COMING........when we who have been persecuted are given rest and those who did the persectuting

are getting the wrath.    Its real simple.   just keep reading the first chapter over and over again , its very specific.  VERY.  

[frienduff thaylorde]

DIG IN PEOPLES and GIVE THE LORD A MIGHTY SHOUT OF PRAISE.

[BobRyan]

5 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Hey Bob.   you should have them read second thessalonians.     the FIRST chapter.   While many have been busy twisting the heck out of the second chapter to try and fit the pre trib.

THEY keep overlooking the first chapter.   The Rapture IS the SECOND COMING........when we who have been persecuted are given rest and those who did the persectuting

are getting the wrath.    Its real simple.   just keep reading the first chapter over and over again , its very specific.  VERY.  

Amen! and Amen!