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BobRyan

Post-Trib, Post-Wrath Rapture = second coming

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Posted (edited)

At the rapture "the dead in Christ rise first" 1 Thess 4 ... at the "first resurrection" Rev 20:4-5 which is part of the Rev 19-Rev 20:5 second coming event -- When Christ "comes again" to take all the saints to heaven "to My Father's house" as in John 14:1-3

 

It is after the tribulation.

How about Matt 24?

20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. ...

29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

It is just ONE event - the second coming:

John 14:1  “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Christ does not say "I will come again... and again... and again..."

 

It is sudden and surprising

Matt 24 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

1 Thess 5: . For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

2 Thess 1: For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction

Edited by BobRyan

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Once again, this is not a literal interpretation of Scripture. Matthew 24, the Olivet Discourse, is for the Jews, not the Church as Paul teaches a Pre-Trib Rapture. Plenty of Scripture evidence has been posted in innumerable threads so I'm not going to repeat them here.

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Posted (edited)

Actually, Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are two fold prophecies in that they describe events that did occur in AD 70, and end times.  And one needs to keep in mind, part of it was done at the temple mount area and part at the Mt. of Olives.  I agree with Rick, that much of it centers around Jews living in Jerusalem at the 70th week of Daniel, or Great Tribulation as many put it.

Just look at the plain sense.... how would worrying about the Abomination of Desolation of the temple occurring in winter or on the Sabbath mean anything to a Gentile mindset?  But it would to a Jew living in Jerusalem at that time. 

And elsewhere, the gathering of the righteous is show to be at a time when Yeshua is coming "as a thief in the night".  That implies no one is expecting Him and could happen at any moment.   Whereas, once the events of Daniel's 70th week get rolling, it will be quite clear the time frame of Yeshua's coming to conquer and rule. In the "thief" occurrence, what does a thief do?  He steals.  Paul made it quite clear that when this thief event happens, there will be a forceable snatching up (harpazo) of the righteous.  Translated as Rapturo in the Latin Vulgate, from which we get our transliterated word, Rapture.  

In the conquering to rule return of Messiah, every eye will see him and be expecting him.  After all, the false messiah will have gathered armies to take up arms against that event. Sounds stupid, but when folks are given a strong delusion to believe "the lie", it will not be out of character.  And Psalm 2 expounds on it.

When Yeshua returned to heaven after His accomplishments here, He left terre firma.  He does not return to terre firma at the removal of the righteous.  We are caught up to go be with Him.  He only returns to terre firma when He returns to conquer His enemies and establish His reign later.  Those that trust in Him have already been with Him and will return with Him as He takes hold of that which the Father has given to him to rule over.  The "armies" that return with Him do no fighting.  He does it all.  Those armies are generally thought to be the believers returning with Him.

Edited by OldCoot
  • This is Worthy 1

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We’re saved because of what we believe, not because of how we behave. I also believe that many who adopt the post-trib rapture position do so because of a prior acceptance of Replacement Theology or some kind of faith plus works doctrine. Replacement theology holds that the Church has replaced Israel in God’s view and therefore is the heir to the promises of Israel. One of those promises is purification in the Great Tribulation. Hence the necessity for a post-trib rapture position.

Faith plus works contends that Jesus didn’t do the whole job and therefore we have to finish it through the purification we receive by enduring the Great Tribulation. (By the way, neither of these views adequately addresses the problem that creates for previous generations of believers since they won’t be alive to endure the judgment.)

There are hints in Scripture to support the view that believing replacement theology casts doubt on a person’s salvation. One is in Rev. 3:9 “I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars–I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.” Of course, R.T. advocates would deny that this applies to them.

You can also use the Sabbath Law to show the error of faith plus works doctrines. Briefly, in the Old Testament, violating the Sabbath rest by working was punishable by death. Hebrews 4 deals with salvation and implies that in the New Testament the Sabbath represents the believer’s life-long Sabbath Rest from the work of his salvation, “for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His.” (Hebr. 4:10) Paul confirmed this change in Colossians 2:16-17 saying the Sabbath was a shadow of things to come, the reality is in Christ.

Therefore New Testament believers keep the Sabbath commandment by observing a lifelong rest from the work of their salvation. Continuing to work to earn or keep your salvation means you don’t believe the Lord did the whole job, and that means you don’t really believe He saved you. This requires that you keep working throughout your Sabbath Rest. The penalty for working on the Sabbath is death because, in reality, the work demonstrates unbelief. (Faith plus works believers would obviously disagree with this treatment of Hebrews 4.)

All that said, we must be careful not to judge others or make decisions about their spiritual condition, because only God knows the intents of their hearts, and He has reserved judgment for Himself.(1 Cor. 4:5)

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The rapture of the Church happens before the seven year tribulation. Then after the seven year tribulation is the second coming of Christ. Two separate events.

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We're never instructed to have it all figured out, or insist that our way is the correct way of seeing the things to come.  All that will work itself out.  Ours is to be ready and alert.  Why not focus on that, and helping others to so be?  Why focus on the things that divide?

What you and I and the rest of us think about the post, pre, mid, trib, wrath, rapture  ultimately doesn't amount to a hill of beans and has zero bearing on what will actually happen.  How exactly is antagonizing each other edifying?  How does it stir us up to love and good works?

Maybe a perspective check is in order.

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9 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

We're never instructed to have it all figured out, or insist that our way is the correct way of seeing the things to come.  All that will work itself out.  Ours is to be ready and alert.  Why not focus on that, and helping others to so be?  Why focus on the things that divide?

What you and I and the rest of us think about the post, pre, mid, trib, wrath, rapture  ultimately doesn't amount to a hill of beans and has zero bearing on what will actually happen.  How exactly is antagonizing each other edifying?  How does it stir us up to love and good works?

Maybe a perspective check is in order.

Which gender starts MOST of these eschatology threads one upping each other with each thread? Just saying. 

Im only pointing that out because some birds puff their chests out more than others. It is a pride issue.

I tire of it as well! 

I agree with you when you said" maybe a perspective check is in order." 

 

We may find out that we all had something wrong in our perspective! In fact, I think it is more than plausible to come to that conclusion .

 

Blessings :) 

 

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Blueyedjewel said:

We may find out that we all had something wrong in our perspective! In fact, I think it is more than plausible to come to that conclusion .

I'd almost guarantee it.  And even if someone did have it perfectly figured out, well . . .

  • If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.  1 Corinthians 13:2

they could still be nothing.

Edited by Last Daze

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6 hours ago, Rick_Parker said:

Once again, this is not a literal interpretation of Scripture. Matthew 24, the Olivet Discourse, is for the Jews, not the Church

That suggestion does not survive the details in Matt 24. Noah's flood as mentioned in Matt 24 "was not just for Jews" - and the end of the world.. the second coming that it describes is not "Just for Jews" any more than John 14:1-3 "I will come again and receive you to myself" is --- "just for Jews."

John 17 - Christ's prayer specifically says his teaching was not "just for Jews". So also the Matt 28 great commission to teach all the world what He had taught them "not just for Jews"

Bible details matter.

6 hours ago, Rick_Parker said:

as Paul teaches a Pre-Trib Rapture.

Not true at all. In 2 Thess 2:1-10 Paul is specific about a post-trib rapture.

 

6 hours ago, Rick_Parker said:

Plenty of Scripture evidence has been posted in innumerable threads so I'm not going to repeat them here.

Your suggestions so far - don't seem to be holding up to the test of scripture.

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