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Post-Trib, Post-Wrath Rapture = second coming


BobRyan

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3 hours ago, Davida said:

So there you go - Keras - YOU asked me to give you Biblical Evidence and YOU didn't bother to read it. It was obviously a waste of my time.  Bye!

Correction! I DID read it and I never saw ANY Biblical evidence. Just another rapture enthusiast's biased opinion. Whereas Keith Hunt proves his case with ample scripture. That you would be well advised to read and inwardly digest. 

I note that Dave Hunt says in: 7/ the rapture takes us instantly, without dying....quote.  Do you realize just how pretentious and prideful this statement is? How is any Christian today better that the millions who have been martyred for their faith?  No, testing and Judgement must come first and only those whose names are in the Book of life a re given eternal life. That will happen at the Great White Throne Judgement. Revelation 20:11-15

 

Nice list there Psalms 37:4. Which reads: Delight in the Lord and He will grant you your hearts desire.  Well and good, but God does have a Plan for His creation; will He change it because you desire something thats not in His Plan? 

I can and would show you that none of those verses prove a rapture to heaven of the Church. But because you use the KJV Bible, I refuse to re-translate it into a modern, unbiased, corrected version and if I did, you would probably reject it anyway, being already caught in Satan's lies, of which KJV onlyism is one. 

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pre-trib rapture-- because--its not really about getting the church out of harms way--its about removing the indwelling Spirit of God so the anti-Christ can have free reign--- The spirit jst happens to be in the church so the lord removes us----much much more to this butthis is the 25 words or less reply~~~

 

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7 hours ago, Keras said:

realize just how pretentious and prideful this statement is? How is any Christian today better

Friend Keras-- If you are a true Born again believer you are in for a very pleasent surprise-- and put down the "Message"-- and get back into a real Bible

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At the rapture "the dead in Christ rise first" 1 Thess 4 ... at the "first resurrection" Rev 20:4-5 which is part of the Rev 19-Rev 20:5 second coming event -- When Christ "comes again" to take all the saints to heaven "to My Father's house" as in John 14:1-3

 

It is after the tribulation.

How about Matt 24?

20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. ...

29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

It is just ONE event - the second coming:

John 14:1  “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Christ does not say "I will come again... and again... and again..."

 

It is sudden and surprising

Matt 24 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

1 Thess 5: . For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

2 Thess 1: For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction

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On 8/13/2017 at 6:21 PM, BobRyan said:

\25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

 

 

No secret rapture. because in this text - 2nd coming is seen by all mankind.

 

Rev. 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Rev. 6:15-17 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

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On 8/26/2017 at 2:49 PM, Keras said:

What needs to be clarified, is where are we raptured to?  The main scripture that does actually tell of a 'catching up', is 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. That prophecy does not mention heaven as the destination and as Jesus has just come from heaven, then those who remain will meet Him in the clouds, then be with Him where He is; that will be in Jerusalem, as He commences His Millennium reign. 

Heb. 12:22-24 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant... 25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

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Y'know, WilliamL,  Just posting scripture is not discussion. 

I assume you posted Hebrews 12:22-24 to prove a rapture to heaven.  Plainly; it does not.

Paul is telling us about Spiritual things, proved from verse 18 It is not in things that can be touched.... Elsewhere Paul says that our citizenship is kept in heaven, but that too does not mean we live there now, or ever. 

Hebrews 12:26-27 is about the soon to happen Lord's Day of wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that will come upon everyone.

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8 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Heb. 12:22-24 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant... 25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Indeed - there is a heavenly Jerusalem ... just as you point out - and the saints on earth are indeed citizens of it - though at a distance.

 

It is that real city that comes down out of heaven at the end of the Millennium in Revelation 21

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On 8/29/2017 at 2:10 PM, Keras said:

Y'know, WilliamL,  Just posting scripture is not discussion. 

I assume you posted Hebrews 12:22-24 to prove a rapture to heaven.  Plainly; it does not.

Paul is telling us about Spiritual things, proved from verse 18 It is not in things that can be touched.... Elsewhere Paul says that our citizenship is kept in heaven, but that too does not mean we live there now, or ever. 

Hebrews 12:26-27 is about the soon to happen Lord's Day of wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that will come upon everyone.

In Hebrews 12:18-28, Paul directly relates and compares the ancient gathering of Israel unto earthly Mount Sinai to the End Time gathering of the Church unto heavenly Mount Zion:

For you are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire [= Sinai], and to blackness and darkness and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet [the shofar of Ex. 19:16, 19]…but you are come to [heavenly] Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn having been registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men having been made perfect, [and] to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant… Heb. 12:18-19, 22-24

Notice the direct contrast between 1) the earthly Mount Sinai at the assembling of carnal Israel on Earth, and 2) the heavenly Mount Zion at the assembling of the sanctified Church in heaven. (Paul makes the same contrast in Galatians 4:21-31.) This direct comparison between

lower versus upper mountains;

carnal (first) versus sanctifying (second/new) covenants;

Old Covenant mediator Moses (Gal. 3:19) versus New Covenant mediator Jesus;

first versus latter trumpets,

is continued in verses 25-26:
See that you do not refuse him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused him who spoke on earth […all the people…said to Moses, “You speak with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us…” Ex. 20:18-19] much more shall we not escape if we turn away from him who speaks from heaven [Jesus: 1 Thes. 4:16 above] – whose voice then shook the earth, but now…“[will] shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” (See Haggai 2:6; 3:21)

This latter-day “turning away” from God’s Presence is described in Rev. 6:15-16:

And the kings of the earth and the great men and the rich men and the commanders and the mighty men and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said, “…hide us from the Face of the one sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.”

Isaiah 2:10-21 also speaks of this time. Verse 19:

They shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, from the terror of the LORD and the glory of His majesty, when He arises to shake the earth mightily.

And also Rev. 1:7:

Behold, He [Jesus] is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn/wail because of Him.

which brings us, conclusively, to Jesus’ words in Matthew 24:30:

then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

At Mount Sinai, most of God’s called-out assembly, Israel, “stood afar off” (Ex.20:18) – “turned away,” as Paul puts it – from the Lord’s Presence amid the fearsome atmospheric and earthly disturbances.

Paul says even greater disturbances will take place at the Last Shofar, when the Lord comes again. Thus, God’s called out assembly, the Church, must be ready to overcome their natural-born fear of the signs and the Face, and not turn away.

Those whose overcome and are ready will go up to be with the Lord upon the heavenly Mount Zion, even as Moses, Joshua, Aaron, and the 70 elders went up into the Presence on Mount Sinai. “Those who are ready” (Matt. 25:10; cf. Ex. 19:11) will go in with the Bridegroom at his coming, immediately following the heavenly and earthly cataclysms and “great sound of a trumpet [shofar]” of the Sixth Seal = Matt. 24:29-31 = 1 Thes 4:16-17 = Heb. 12:25-28 = Isaiah 2:10-21 = Rev. 1:7

Those who are not ready, both of the worldly and among Israel and the Church, won’t go up, and will enter into the times of God’s wrath. That wrath begins after the Sixth Seal is opened – “the great day of his wrath is come,” Rev. 6:16 – and extends throughout the Seven angelic Trumpets (the Judgment of Israel), and finally the Seven Bowls (the Judgment of the Nations.)

[ Note: the Judgment of the heavenly elohim shall take place first, before the judgments of 2) the Church, 3) Israel, and 4) the nations. That first judgment is spoken of in Rev. 12:7-9, Psalm 82, and Isaiah 24:21, and also by its foreshadowing in Ex. 12:12 and Num. 33:4.]

 

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On 8/9/2017 at 7:10 AM, BobRyan said:

At the rapture "the dead in Christ rise first" 1 Thess 4 ... at the "first resurrection" Rev 20:4-5 which is part of the Rev 19-Rev 20:5 second coming event -- When Christ "comes again" to take all the saints to heaven "to My Father's house" as in John 14:1-3

 

It is after the tribulation.

How about Matt 24?

20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. ...

29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

It is just ONE event - the second coming:

John 14:1  “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Christ does not say "I will come again... and again... and again..."

 

It is sudden and surprising

Matt 24 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

1 Thess 5: . For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

2 Thess 1: For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction

Hey BobRyan,

Just wanted to encourage you on this discussion.  IMO, most Christians have the wrong idea of not being appointed to God's Wrath.  The context is missing, in that 

God's Wrath is for the sinners, children of disobedience as well as the proud and lofty. You also have God will pour out His wrath on His adversaries.

 

combine that context with verses like Zep 2:3 that tells us to seek righteousness and meekness during the Day of the Lord's anger/wrath and Joel 1 & 2 where it talks about priest and elders calling a sacred assembly during the Day of the Lord which is the final day of His Wrath, then you have the context for the verse that talks about not being appointed to God's Wrath.  In that we go thru His Wrath but are not appointed to it.  Just like Satan pours out His wrath during the Great Tribulation, atheist go 'thru' it but are not appointed to it... and yes the Great Tribulation is not Gods Wrath, God is not double minded He is not the author and overcomes of Tribulation, He is the overcome of Tribulation...

 

thanks again for posting the topic and don't loose heart

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