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How is the number 666 derived in our English bibles?


Ed J

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Hi Everyone,

How is the number 666 (in Rev.13:18) derived in our English bibles?

____________
God bless

Ed J

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What?

 

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15 minutes ago, Ed J said:

What?

 

oldest preserved manuscript of the Revelation as of 2017), as well as other ancient sources like Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus, give the Number of the Beast as 616 (χιϛ), not 666;[2][3] critical editions of the Greek text, such as the Novum Testamentum Graece, note 616 as a variant. In greek we are told to sum or solve the number of his name. 

Edited by Reinitin
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1 hour ago, Reinitin said:

oldest preserved manuscript of the Revelation as of 2017), as well as other ancient sources like Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus, give the Number of the Beast as 616 (χιϛ), not 666;[2][3] critical editions of the Greek text, such as the Novum Testamentum Graece, note 616 as a variant. In greek we are told to sum or solve the number of his name. 

And both numbers may represent variant spellings of Nero (or Domitian).

The expert reporting on the  616 papyrus reveal also calls the Book of Revelation, "Revelations" more than once, leaving me a little suspicious of their attention to detail. Plus a scrap of paper presumed to be older than another more complete record  does not become more accurate simply due to it's presumed age predating the also presumed age of another document. Often later  documents correct errors of previous ones.

In either case 616, or 666 can be made to represent Nero depending on the variant spellings. So maybe the document was written  in the third or fourth century AD to reflect that it is Nero, which in of itself may be an error. It if accurate lends support to the view of  the Jesuits that Revelation  is not  a book of prophecy as yet unfulfilled, and that  it is prophetic  only of that era. And to my limited knowledge it is only Hebrew and not Greek that has numeric value for letters, letters that will be used in the spelling of names. So any name would have to be represented in it's Hebrew equivalent and then numbers applied to the letters therein to come up with  a numeric value to a name of a person, - or of any item or land I suppose.

If, the letter titled Revelation was written in Koine ( Biblical) Greek and it referred to a name as having a numeric value, it would take wisdom to apply  that value, for Greek letters have no numerics except to  be the first, second, third, etc.,letter of the Greek Alphabet. While Hebrew, another language in use by the audience of that letter titled Revelation, does have numeric values. There were no Hebrew language numbers except the letters of the Hebrew alphabet*. 

Therefore it would take some wisdom, some knowledge of the two languages and the awareness of the times, and perhaps need for secrecy or code, as well as who the audience  of the letter were, and what languages they would understand in order for it to make sense that  the value of the name would be based upon the values of the letters of that name in Hebrew. And then assuming all that , there is the issue of how is 666 derived is it 600, 60, and 6, or maybe 600,10, and 6; or is it 6.6.6 or even 6.1.6

I guess it would take some sense of wisdom,and certainly knowledge, to read a letter in Greek and find it's riddle answered in Hebrew.

* There are websites that give the numeric values of Hebrew alphabet letters. One cannot apply the values to English letters the hebrew equivilent of the name must be used instead.

 

All of the above is just a thought!

Edited by Neighbor
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1 hour ago, Yowm said:

Of course the 'oldest' is no guarantee of being more accurate over the 'majority' :)

I kinda half renember stuff i studied decades ago. But some issue with the alexandria library fire affected the quality of our historical text.

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1 hour ago, Yowm said:

Of course the 'oldest' is no guarantee of being more accurate over the 'majority' :)

 is this better? "666" in Strongs's Concordance:
Strong's G5516 - ''chi-xi-stigma χξϚ Transliteration chi-xi-stigma Root Word (Etymology) The ἄγαμος (G22)d, ἀγαθοεργέω (G14)th and an obsolete letter (4742 as a cross) of the Greek alphabet (intermediate between the ἀββα (G5)th and Ἄβελ (G6)th), used as numbers''.

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Hi Reinitin,

Are you suggesting that Greek letters were converted into numbers?

_____________
God bless

Ed J

 

Edited by Ed J
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1 hour ago, Neighbor said:

And both numbers may represent variant spellings of Nero (or Domitian).

The expert reporting on the  616 papyrus reveal also calls the Book of Revelation, "Revelations" more than once, leaving me a little suspicious of their attention to detail. Plus a scrap of paper presumed to be older than another more complete record  does not become more accurate simply due to it's presumed age predating the also presumed age of another document. Often later  documents correct errors of previous ones.

In either case 616, or 666 can be made to represent Nero depending on the variant spellings. So maybe the document was written  in the third or fourth century AD to reflect that it is Nero, which in of itself may be an error. It if accurate lends support to the view of  the Jesuits that Revelation  is not  a book of prophecy as yet unfulfilled, and that  it is prophetic  only of that era. And to my limited knowledge it is only Hebrew and not Greek that has numeric value for letters, letters that will be used in the spelling of names. So any name would have to be represented in it's Hebrew equivalent and then numbers applied to the letters therein to come up with  a numeric value to a name of a person, - or of any item or land I suppose.

If, the letter titled Revelation was written in Koine ( Biblical) Greek and it referred to a name as having a numeric value, it would take wisdom to apply  that value, for Greek letters have no numerics except to  be the first, second, third, etc.,letter of the Greek Alphabet. While Hebrew, another language in use by the audience of that letter titled Revelation, does have numeric values. There were no Hebrew language numbers except the letters of the Hebrew alphabet*. 

Therefore it would take some wisdom, some knowledge of the two languages and the awareness of the times, and perhaps need for secrecy or code, as well as who the audience  of the letter were, and what languages they would understand in order for it to make sense that  the value of the name would be based upon the values of the letters of that name in Hebrew. And then assuming all that , there is the issue of how is 666 derived is it 600, 60, and 6, or maybe 600,10, and 6; or is it 6.6.6 or even 6.1.6

I guess it would take some sense of wisdom,and certainly knowledge, to read a letter in Greek and find it's riddle answered in Hebrew.

* There are websites that give the numeric values of Hebrew alphabet letters. One cannot apply the values to English letters the hebrew equivilent of the name must be used instead.

 

All of the above is just a thought!

have you ever got curious to look and see how John represented numbers in the rest of revelation? he didnt use the same method as he used in rev 12 (i think maybe 13 where ever it is :) for the number to be summed or solved.

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16 minutes ago, Ed J said:

Hi Reinitin,

Are you suggesting that Greek letters are converted into numbers?

_____________
God bless

Ed J

 

So go study it. If your asking about how he wrote numbers every where else. I studied it a long time ago and dont want to mislead and say every where when its most every where or something.  For the 666 verse John  used the 3 symbols "χξϚ"  but in other places in revelation he wrote it out so if he communicated this number the way he wrote numbers in other places he would of wrote "chi-xi-stigma".

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2 hours ago, Reinitin said:

have you ever got curious to look and see how John represented numbers in the rest of revelation? he didnt use the same method as he used in rev 12 (i think maybe 13 where ever it is :) for the number to be summed or solved.

I have been "curious"  to the point of  studying  God's use of numbers in the Bible, in calendars, in astronomy, and in creation itself.

I have spent quite some  time  with Ed.F.Vallowe's work "Keys to Scripture Numerics".  I did a two year numeric's study of the great pyramid with God's angry man Gene Scott, and a one year long study of the numeric's of Psalm 119 under a local Christian college professor of whom I have great appreciation, and have studied calendars and numbers  through the work's of Remy Landau Hebrew's Calendar Science and Myths, plus some   creation science, with Zola Levitt and Gerald Schroeder, and a local  Christian College professor, all are a short list of interests over time.

I have likely forgotten most all details of those studies, and am left with just the conclusions reached, if any, in doing the studies themselves.

In general; though very very fascinating, I find no effect on my faith one way or another has occurred as result of any of the studies.

 I confess spending a year on Psalm 119 was a kick, as was my time with the crazied Gene Scott.

As to the question about "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.", no I have not done a study I would think of as an original study. I have read the work of several individuals and can likely copy/paste from  their works with the best of the copy/pasters on boards, but no real study of my own.

It's revelation 13:18, but really all of 13 keeping in mind there were no verses in the original writings under the inspiration of God. I personally think that  versification of the Bible is a plague upon the holy work of God in that  there is then tendency to quote an isolated  verse instead of at least an entire  passage or an  entire book or series of correlating  books of the Bible when reaching and declaring a point of view or understanding.

Edited by Neighbor
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