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Zoltan777

As it was in the day of Noah

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35 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

The Book of Enoch is not the Lord's word

Explain it to Jude apostle who was quoting it in Jude 14-15.

“And to these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, ‘Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their works of ungodliness which they have wrought, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him’” 

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12 hours ago, Zoltan777 said:

So in the Bible apostle Jude and Peter used a myth book as a reference?

Jude named the author of this "myth" book and quoted from it.

“And to these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, ‘Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their works of ungodliness which they have wrought, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him’” Jude 14-15.

Shalom, Zoltan777.

No, this "Book of Enoch" is not the SOURCE of Yhudah's (Jude's) quotation. The Book of Enoch was written in intertestamental times, and Jude's book was written in the First Century A.D. They simply drew from a common source.

Here's Wikipedia's report at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch:

Quote

 

The Book of Enoch (also 1 Enoch;[1] Ge'ez: መጽሐፈ ሄኖክ mätṣḥäfä henok) is an ancient Jewish religious work, ascribed by tradition to Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah, although modern scholars estimate the older sections (mainly in the Book of the Watchers) to date from about 300 BC, and the latest part (Book of Parables) probably to the first century BC.[2]

It is not part of the biblical canon as used by Jews, apart from Beta Israel. Most Christian denominations and traditions may accept the Books of Enoch as having some historical or theological interest, but they generally regard the Books of Enoch as non-canonical or non-inspired.[3] It is regarded as canonical by the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church and Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church, but not by any other Christian groups.

It is wholly extant only in the Ge'ez language, with Aramaic fragments from the Dead Sea Scrolls and a few Greek and Latin fragments. For this and other reasons, the traditional Ethiopian belief is that the original language of the work was Ge'ez, whereas non-Ethiopian scholars tend to assert that it was first written in either Aramaic or Hebrew; Ephraim Isaac suggests that the Book of Enoch, like the Book of Daniel, was composed partially in Aramaic and partially in Hebrew.[4]:6No Hebrew version is known to have survived. It is asserted in the book itself that its author was Enoch, before the Biblical Flood.

Some of the authors of the New Testament were familiar with some of the content of the story.[5] A short section of 1 Enoch (1:9) is cited in the New Testament, Epistle of Jude, Jude 1:14–15, and is attributed there to "Enoch the Seventh from Adam" (1 En 60:8), although this section of 1 Enoch is a midrash on Deuteronomy 33. Several copies of the earlier sections of 1 Enoch were preserved among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

 

Any author can claim his work to be written by someone else. That proves nothing. 

Quote

Apostle Peter used the story of this "myth" book as a reference: 

"For if God didn’t spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;  but preserved Noah with seven others, a preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood on the world of the ungodly;" 2. Peter 2.4-5.

So if you are saying the book of Enoch was not written by Enoch and story is not true it means you think apostle Jude and Peter are incorrect. Think again.

They were NOT incorrect; they just had a different source than what you and others like you are claiming. Kefa ("Cephas" or Peter) likely used the Hebrew Tanakh (OT) for his information or a midrash (a Hebrew commentary) on the Tanakh.

On a practical note, doesn't that bother you to quote just that much of what you quoted? You've got the "if" part of the logic conditional statement, but you've left out the "then" part! "Drop the other shoe" already! It's like going to a piano and playing, 

"C D E F G A B ........(silence!)" You just want hit that last note for the player! "C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C!"

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2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Zoltan777.

No, this "Book of Enoch" is not the SOURCE of Yhudah's (Jude's) quotation. The Book of Enoch was written in intertestamental times, and Jude's book was written in the First Century A.D. They simply drew from a common source.

Here's Wikipedia's report at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch:

Any author can claim his work to be written by someone else. That proves nothing. 

They were NOT incorrect; they just had a different source than what you and others like you are claiming. Kefa ("Cephas" or Peter) likely used the Hebrew Tanakh (OT) for his information or a midrash (a Hebrew commentary) on the Tanakh.

On a practical note, doesn't that bother you to quote just that much of what you quoted? You've got the "if" part of the logic conditional statement, but you've left out the "then" part! "Drop the other shoe" already! It's like going to a piano and playing, 

"C D E F G A B ........(silence!)" You just want hit that last note for the player! "C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C!"

LOL   if the Jews had considered it Canon they would have known who Jesus was......   and because they were not to know that, it wasn't in mankind's best interests for the Enochean knowledge to be accepted by the religions Hebrews until much later.

There are fragments from many different manuscripts and during the time of Christ is was a widely read book.  Speaking of 1 Enoch only that is.

I really don't think Wiki is such a good place to put your hopes in getting the down to earth truth.

I could recommend several well researched books, but it isn't likely you would read them so I'm stuck with just Pffft.

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15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Zoltan777.

No, this "Book of Enoch" is not the SOURCE of Yhudah's (Jude's) quotation. The Book of Enoch was written in intertestamental times, and Jude's book was written in the First Century A.D. They simply drew from a common source.

Here's Wikipedia's report at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch:

Any author can claim his work to be written by someone else. That proves nothing. 

They were NOT incorrect; they just had a different source than what you and others like you are claiming. Kefa ("Cephas" or Peter) likely used the Hebrew Tanakh (OT) for his information or a midrash (a Hebrew commentary) on the Tanakh.

On a practical note, doesn't that bother you to quote just that much of what you quoted? You've got the "if" part of the logic conditional statement, but you've left out the "then" part! "Drop the other shoe" already! It's like going to a piano and playing, 

"C D E F G A B ........(silence!)" You just want hit that last note for the player! "C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C!"

If Book of Enoch is not the source for Jude 14-15 then what is it? Where did he drag this prophecy from? Can you name a book or a specific source or it is just a theory in your head without any proof?

"Any author can claim his work to be written by someone else. That proves nothing." - Why would Jude have done that? If you read the verses: "And to these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying...."  Read this verse carefully and tell me what it means? If it wasn't Enoch prophecy quoted it means Jude was lying. But that's not true. He used 1. Enoch 60:8 which proves this book was inspired by God. By the way, It has nothing to do with Deuteronomy 33 as it's stated in Wikipedia. If you read both you can clearly see this. Anyway, Wikipedia is not a very good source for information.

Also, if Peter had any different source about the fallen angels cast in Tartarus can you specify in what other book it is mentioned? In the old time book of Enoch was widely used and accepted. I just don't understand why you need to make a new theory to explain why book of Enoch is a myth, angels and humans can't mingle etc. While everything is written CLEARLY. Why is it so hard to accept the fact as it is? 

I didn't understand the last bit about the "if" and "then" and the piano.

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On 9/4/2017 at 8:19 PM, other one said:

LOL   if the Jews had considered it Canon they would have known who Jesus was......   and because they were not to know that, it wasn't in mankind's best interests for the Enochean knowledge to be accepted by the religions Hebrews until much later.

Many of the Jews did know who Yeshua was.  All the Apostles were Jewish.  John the Baptist was Jewish.  At least 500 Jewish believers fellowshipped with Him between His resurrection and ascension.  8000 came to faith almost immediately at and after Shavuot (Pentacost).  Thousands more as time went on.  All the writers of the NT were Jewish, with the possible exception of Luke, who followed Paul around.

Wiki is not the only place regarding these things. Many scholars also concur that Jude was referencing the book of Enoch when he wrote his letter.  

No, it was the Jewish leadership that rejected Messiah. They were interested in keeping their earthly, temporal power deal they had with Rome.  

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16 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Many of the Jews did know who Yeshua was.  All the Apostles were Jewish.  John the Baptist was Jewish.  At least 500 Jewish believers fellowshipped with Him between His resurrection and ascension.  8000 came to faith almost immediately at and after Shavuot (Pentacost).  Thousands more as time went on.  All the writers of the NT were Jewish, with the possible exception of Luke, who followed Paul around.

Wiki is not the only place regarding these things. Many scholars also concur that Jude was referencing the book of Enoch when he wrote his letter.  

No, it was the Jewish leadership that rejected Messiah. They were interested in keeping their earthly, temporal power deal they had with Rome.  

don't misunderstand my view.  while I do think most of 1 Enoch is true, it really doesn't meet the criteria for canonization....    and there are a few translation problems that are kind of obvious.

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50 minutes ago, other one said:

don't misunderstand my view.  while I do think most of 1 Enoch is true, it really doesn't meet the criteria for canonization....    and there are a few translation problems that are kind of obvious.

I think we can agree on that!

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