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Keras

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On 9/5/2017 at 0:58 AM, Keras said:
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Where in Bible prophecy does it say there will be a complete national redemption and restoration of the Jewish people?"

Here is just one [Romans 11:25-36]

Keep in mind that you are not an Israelite

 

But every faithful Christian IS an Israelite of God. We are His Overcomers of Satan and deemed to be a descendant of Jacob, by faith in the One Seed of Abraham: Jesus. We are to be finally admitted in full strength into the Olive tree and if the Jewish people continue as they have until now, in their rejection of Jesus, then they will be destroyed along with all the godless peoples. As many prophesies say they will be.  

The denial of the truth of Christians being the Israel of God, Galatians 6:16, is just made to support the false rapture to heaven theory. Not going to happen and we have work to do here. Escape is not an option.

Shalom, Keras.

Yours is the more difficult statement to correct because you are PARTIALLY correct, but lack important facets to what you are understanding.

First, you are correct that we are brought INTO the "Israel of God," but you are NOT correct in thinking that "faithful Christians" have somehow "BECOME the TRUE Israel of God."

You should know by now that I do not support the false "rapture to Heaven" theory. On the other hand, I don't support the false "going to Heaven" theory, at all! That's not our destiny, not before the Second Coming and certainly not after.

Believing Christians, faithful or not, are brought INTO the "Israel of God"; that is, they become PART of the "Israel of God." They are INCLUDED in His Kingdom, but they are not the only ones in that Kingdom!

The error in the statement, "We are His Overcomers of Satan and deemed to be a descendant of Jacob, by faith in the One Seed of Abraham: Jesus," is that Yeshua` (Jesus) is NOT "the One Seed of Avraham (Abraham)!"

Now, I'm not trying to be crass in saying this; I'm only trying to state the facts: Did you know that the English word "sperm," a shortened form of "spermatozoa," comes from the Greek word, "sperma," meaning "seed?" ("Spermatozoa" means "seed of life.") In fact, according to the Englishman's Concordance, the word "sperma," translated as "seed" or "issue," is used 45 times in the New Testament:

Matthew 13:24, 27, 32, 37, 38; 22:24, 25;
Mark 4:31 (twice); 12:19, 20, 21, 22;
Luke 1:55; 20:28;
John 7:42; 8:33, 37;
Acts 3:25; 7:5, 6; 13:23;
Romans 1:3; 4:13, 16, 18; 9:7 (twice), 8, 29; 11:1;
1 Corinthians 15:38;
2 Corinthians 9:10; 11:22;
Galatians 3:16 (three times), 19, 29;
2 Timothy 2:8;
Hebrews 2:16; 11:11, 18;
1 John 3:9; and
Revelation 12:17.

Many times the word is used for plant "seeds," but it is also often used for HUMAN "seed." If you take the word literally, it is actually talking about the passing of genetic information through the chromosomes of the haploid to the next generation!

Yeshua` Himself recognized this fact in John 8:

John 8:28-38
28 Then said Jesus unto them,
When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him,
If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant (slave) of sin.
35 And the servant (slave) abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye (PLURAL) are Abraham's seed; but ye (as a GROUP) seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

KJV

So, Yeshua` was speaking to a whole group of people (all of whom were children of Y'hudah or Judah, Jews), although at first, He was specifically talking to that subset of those who believed on Him. The rest of the group chimed in with "We be Avraham's seed," and then He began talking to those Jews who did NOT believe in Him, and later calls them "children of their father, the devil."

Now, you're somewhat correct in saying that Yeshua` is the "seed" of prophecy:

Genesis 13:14-17
14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him,
Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

KJV

2 Samuel 7:5-17
5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?
6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.
7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?
8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:
9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.
10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
KJV

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

2 Timothy 2:8-10
8 Remember that Jesus Christ of (or from) the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
KJV

Galatians 3:16
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ (Greek: Christos = Anointed).
KJV

So, yes, Yeshua` is "the seed" in these prophecies; however, the word implies also the WHOLE lineage of Yeshua` and subsequently also includes all the genetic line of Avraham through Yitschaq (Isaac) and Ya`aqov/Yisra'el (Jacob/Israel) and Yhudah (Judah), all being the heirs of the promises and of the Kingdom.

Paul also tells us that God does not renege on His promises and therefore does not go back on His promises to the people to whom He made these promises:

Romans 11:25-29
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: BUT as touching the election (choosing), they are beloved for the fathers' sakes (the sakes of the Patriarchs, their genetic fathers).
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (without changing His mind).
KJV

Study this last passage well. Gentiles are "new layers on the onion"; they do not replace it!

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"But every faithful Christian IS an Israelite of God"

Not true

Your infatuation with your statement above is clearly refuted

Israel is "Israel".... the "church" is a completely different body of both Israel and Gentiles for a different reason

You need to dump your ideas contrived by the religious off shoot of your "church" and return to the scriptures

Galatians 6:16 is strictly about Paul speaking to those of Israel and not Gentiles

  

Edited by Daniel 11:36

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9 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"But every faithful Christian IS an Israelite of God"

Not true

Your infatuation with your statement above is clearly refuted

Israel is "Israel".... the "church" is a completely different body of both Israel and Gentiles for a different reason

You need to dump your ideas contrived by the religious off shoot of your "church" and return to the scriptures

Galatians 6:16 is strictly about Paul speaking those of Israel and not Gentiles

Return to the Scriptures?  What a good idea:

The true Christian Ekklesia is Israel.

Those believers who love the Lord and keep His commandments, that is: every faithful  Christian person are designated by God to be Israelites. Galatians 6:16 The New Testament writings are clear: there is only one Israel, who are the only one Church, only one elect, be they Jew or Gentile by birth.

1/ Israel, the chosen people of God: Exodus 15:13, Deuteronomy 33:3, Ezra 3:11

    Christians, chosen of God: Romans 9:25, Ephesians 5:1, Col. 3:12, 1 John 3:1, Rev. 7:9   

2/ Israel, the children of God: Deut. 14:1, Isaiah 1:2-4, Isaiah 63:8, Hosea 11:1

     Christians, the children of God: John 1:12, Romans 8:14-16, Galatians 4:5-7, 1 John 3:1    

3/ Israel, the scattered sheep of God: Psalms 78:52, Isaiah 40:11, Jer. 23:1-4, Ezekiel 34:12

     Christians, His sheep: among the nations: John 10:14-16, Hebrews 13:20, 1 Peter 2:25

4/ Israel, God’s household: Hebrews 3:5, 1 Chronicles 29:14-18

     Christians are God’s household: Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 10:20-21, I Timothy 3:15, 1 Cor.3:9

5/ Israel are the priests of God: Exodus 19:6, Deuteronomy 27:9

     Christians are the priests of God: Isaiah 66:21, 1 Peter 2:5-9, Rev. 1:6, Revelation 5:10

6/ Israel is the bride of God: Isaiah 54:5-6, Jeremiah 2:2, Ezekiel 16:32, Hosea 1:2

     Christians are the bride of Christ: Isaiah 62:4-5, 2 Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 5:29-32

7/ Israel is the vine and the olive tree: Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10, Hosea 14:6-7

     Christians are the vine and the olive: Luke 20:16, Romans 11:24

8/ Israelites are the circumcised: Genesis 17:9-14, Judges 15:18

     Christians are the ‘circumcised’: Romans 2:25-29, Philippians 3:3, Col. 2:11

9/ Israelites are the children of Abraham:  2 Chronicles 20:7, Psalms 105:5-6, Isaiah 41:8

     Christians are the spiritual children of Abraham: Romans 4:13-18, Gal. 3:7& 29, John 4:23

10/ The Covenant is with Israel: Deut. 4:31, 2 Kings 17:34-36, Psalms 105:7-10

      The New Covenant is with Christians: 1 Corinthians 11:25, Hebrews 8:6-10, Ezekiel 34:25

 

The above 10 proofs totally negate any argument that the Church and Israel are 2 separate entities. That premise is held and promoted by the pre-trib rapture exponents, who must have 2 groups; one removed to heaven, [themselves] and the Jews, [Israel] who remain on earth to face the Great Tribulation.

The rapture to heaven is a false teaching and was never in God's plan for His people. 

 

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57 minutes ago, Keras said:

Return to the Scriptures?  What a good idea:

The true Christian Ekklesia is Israel.

No.  The Church is not Israel.  You can repeat this 500 times and it will be no truer the 500th time you say it that it is now.  All you are teaching is false Replacement Theology/British Israelism, whatever they are calling it this week.  The Church is grafted into the tree.  It does not replace the tree.  Romans 11 is clear about this and there is really no way one can easily mess it up.  You have to want to mess it up.

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10 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

No.  The Church is not Israel.  You can repeat this 500 times and it will be no truer the 500th time you say it that it is now.  All you are teaching is false Replacement Theology/British Israelism, whatever they are calling it this week.  The Church is grafted into the tree.  It does not replace the tree.  Romans 11 is clear about this and there is really no way one can easily mess it up.  You have to want to mess it up.

Right: Israel is Israel and the Church is the Church. They have two different destinies, and Paul goes to great lengths in Romans to establish this.

On that note: I consider it attempted spiritual theft to try to claim "the Church is Israel", as specific promises were made to Israel and by claiming Israel's identity, whoever subscribes to that is also falsely trying to claim their promises as well.

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1 hour ago, Keras said:

Return to the Scriptures?  What a good idea:

The true Christian Ekklesia is Israel.

Those believers who love the Lord and keep His commandments, that is: every faithful  Christian person are designated by God to be Israelites. Galatians 6:16 The New Testament writings are clear: there is only one Israel, who are the only one Church, only one elect, be they Jew or Gentile by birth.

1/ Israel, the chosen people of God: Exodus 15:13, Deuteronomy 33:3, Ezra 3:11

    Christians, chosen of God: Romans 9:25, Ephesians 5:1, Col. 3:12, 1 John 3:1, Rev. 7:9   

2/ Israel, the children of God: Deut. 14:1, Isaiah 1:2-4, Isaiah 63:8, Hosea 11:1

     Christians, the children of God: John 1:12, Romans 8:14-16, Galatians 4:5-7, 1 John 3:1    

3/ Israel, the scattered sheep of God: Psalms 78:52, Isaiah 40:11, Jer. 23:1-4, Ezekiel 34:12

     Christians, His sheep: among the nations: John 10:14-16, Hebrews 13:20, 1 Peter 2:25

4/ Israel, God’s household: Hebrews 3:5, 1 Chronicles 29:14-18

     Christians are God’s household: Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 10:20-21, I Timothy 3:15, 1 Cor.3:9

5/ Israel are the priests of God: Exodus 19:6, Deuteronomy 27:9

     Christians are the priests of God: Isaiah 66:21, 1 Peter 2:5-9, Rev. 1:6, Revelation 5:10

6/ Israel is the bride of God: Isaiah 54:5-6, Jeremiah 2:2, Ezekiel 16:32, Hosea 1:2

     Christians are the bride of Christ: Isaiah 62:4-5, 2 Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 5:29-32

7/ Israel is the vine and the olive tree: Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10, Hosea 14:6-7

     Christians are the vine and the olive: Luke 20:16, Romans 11:24

8/ Israelites are the circumcised: Genesis 17:9-14, Judges 15:18

     Christians are the ‘circumcised’: Romans 2:25-29, Philippians 3:3, Col. 2:11

9/ Israelites are the children of Abraham:  2 Chronicles 20:7, Psalms 105:5-6, Isaiah 41:8

     Christians are the spiritual children of Abraham: Romans 4:13-18, Gal. 3:7& 29, John 4:23

10/ The Covenant is with Israel: Deut. 4:31, 2 Kings 17:34-36, Psalms 105:7-10

      The New Covenant is with Christians: 1 Corinthians 11:25, Hebrews 8:6-10, Ezekiel 34:25

 

The above 10 proofs totally negate any argument that the Church and Israel are 2 separate entities. That premise is held and promoted by the pre-trib rapture exponents, who must have 2 groups; one removed to heaven, [themselves] and the Jews, [Israel] who remain on earth to face the Great Tribulation.

The rapture to heaven is a false teaching and was never in God's plan for His people. 

 

The rapture is at the end of the tribulation. There is no pre-trib, mid-trib only end trib when Christ removes us so he can render His just desserts to those with the mark of the beast. But first the dead in Christ will rise and then those who remain will be caught up into the heavens. If you believe in an end of trib. rapture I have to give you an Amen  brother, for all the above truths. The Bride and Israel are one. That is the remnant of Jacob and the Gentile church. Rachel waits with Jacob she joins them. Rachel is an example of the younger Church  (Christian Gentiles) Jacob represents (Israel) and Leah the old covenant. We are one.

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1 hour ago, Keras said:

Return to the Scriptures?  What a good idea:

The true Christian Ekklesia is Israel.

Those believers who love the Lord and keep His commandments, that is: every faithful  Christian person are designated by God to be Israelites. Galatians 6:16 The New Testament writings are clear: there is only one Israel, who are the only one Church, only one elect, be they Jew or Gentile by birth.

1/ Israel, the chosen people of God: Exodus 15:13, Deuteronomy 33:3, Ezra 3:11

    Christians, chosen of God: Romans 9:25, Ephesians 5:1, Col. 3:12, 1 John 3:1, Rev. 7:9   

2/ Israel, the children of God: Deut. 14:1, Isaiah 1:2-4, Isaiah 63:8, Hosea 11:1

     Christians, the children of God: John 1:12, Romans 8:14-16, Galatians 4:5-7, 1 John 3:1    

3/ Israel, the scattered sheep of God: Psalms 78:52, Isaiah 40:11, Jer. 23:1-4, Ezekiel 34:12

     Christians, His sheep: among the nations: John 10:14-16, Hebrews 13:20, 1 Peter 2:25

4/ Israel, God’s household: Hebrews 3:5, 1 Chronicles 29:14-18

     Christians are God’s household: Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 10:20-21, I Timothy 3:15, 1 Cor.3:9

5/ Israel are the priests of God: Exodus 19:6, Deuteronomy 27:9

     Christians are the priests of God: Isaiah 66:21, 1 Peter 2:5-9, Rev. 1:6, Revelation 5:10

6/ Israel is the bride of God: Isaiah 54:5-6, Jeremiah 2:2, Ezekiel 16:32, Hosea 1:2

     Christians are the bride of Christ: Isaiah 62:4-5, 2 Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 5:29-32

7/ Israel is the vine and the olive tree: Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10, Hosea 14:6-7

     Christians are the vine and the olive: Luke 20:16, Romans 11:24

8/ Israelites are the circumcised: Genesis 17:9-14, Judges 15:18

     Christians are the ‘circumcised’: Romans 2:25-29, Philippians 3:3, Col. 2:11

9/ Israelites are the children of Abraham:  2 Chronicles 20:7, Psalms 105:5-6, Isaiah 41:8

     Christians are the spiritual children of Abraham: Romans 4:13-18, Gal. 3:7& 29, John 4:23

10/ The Covenant is with Israel: Deut. 4:31, 2 Kings 17:34-36, Psalms 105:7-10

      The New Covenant is with Christians: 1 Corinthians 11:25, Hebrews 8:6-10, Ezekiel 34:25

 

The above 10 proofs totally negate any argument that the Church and Israel are 2 separate entities. That premise is held and promoted by the pre-trib rapture exponents, who must have 2 groups; one removed to heaven, [themselves] and the Jews, [Israel] who remain on earth to face the Great Tribulation.

The rapture to heaven is a false teaching and was never in God's plan for His people. 

 

 

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Keras.

Yours is the more difficult statement to correct because you are PARTIALLY correct, but lack important facets to what you are understanding.

First, you are correct that we are brought INTO the "Israel of God," but you are NOT correct in thinking that "faithful Christians" have somehow "BECOME the TRUE Israel of God."

You should know by now that I do not support the false "rapture to Heaven" theory. On the other hand, I don't support the false "going to Heaven" theory, at all! That's not our destiny, not before the Second Coming and certainly not after.

Believing Christians, faithful or not, are brought INTO the "Israel of God"; that is, they become PART of the "Israel of God." They are INCLUDED in His Kingdom, but they are not the only ones in that Kingdom!

The error in the statement, "We are His Overcomers of Satan and deemed to be a descendant of Jacob, by faith in the One Seed of Abraham: Jesus," is that Yeshua` (Jesus) is NOT "the One Seed of Avraham (Abraham)!"

Now, I'm not trying to be crass in saying this; I'm only trying to state the facts: Did you know that the English word "sperm," a shortened form of "spermatozoa," comes from the Greek word, "sperma," meaning "seed?" ("Spermatozoa" means "seed of life.") In fact, according to the Englishman's Concordance, the word "sperma," translated as "seed" or "issue," is used 45 times in the New Testament:

Matthew 13:24, 27, 32, 37, 38; 22:24, 25;
Mark 4:31 (twice); 12:19, 20, 21, 22;
Luke 1:55; 20:28;
John 7:42; 8:33, 37;
Acts 3:25; 7:5, 6; 13:23;
Romans 1:3; 4:13, 16, 18; 9:7 (twice), 8, 29; 11:1;
1 Corinthians 15:38;
2 Corinthians 9:10; 11:22;
Galatians 3:16 (three times), 19, 29;
2 Timothy 2:8;
Hebrews 2:16; 11:11, 18;
1 John 3:9; and
Revelation 12:17.

Many times the word is used for plant "seeds," but it is also often used for HUMAN "seed." If you take the word literally, it is actually talking about the passing of genetic information through the chromosomes of the haploid to the next generation!

Yeshua` Himself recognized this fact in John 8:

John 8:28-38
28 Then said Jesus unto them,
When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him,
If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant (slave) of sin.
35 And the servant (slave) abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye (PLURAL) are Abraham's seed; but ye (as a GROUP) seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

KJV

So, Yeshua` was speaking to a whole group of people (all of whom were children of Y'hudah or Judah, Jews), although at first, He was specifically talking to that subset of those who believed on Him. The rest of the group chimed in with "We be Avraham's seed," and then He began talking to those Jews who did NOT believe in Him, and later calls them "children of their father, the devil."

Now, you're somewhat correct in saying that Yeshua` is the "seed" of prophecy:

Genesis 13:14-17
14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him,
Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

KJV

2 Samuel 7:5-17
5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?
6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.
7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?
8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:
9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.
10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
KJV

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

2 Timothy 2:8-10
8 Remember that Jesus Christ of (or from) the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
KJV

Galatians 3:16
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ (Greek: Christos = Anointed).
KJV

So, yes, Yeshua` is "the seed" in these prophecies; however, the word implies also the WHOLE lineage of Yeshua` and subsequently also includes all the genetic line of Avraham through Yitschaq (Isaac) and Ya`aqov/Yisra'el (Jacob/Israel) and Yhudah (Judah), all being the heirs of the promises and of the Kingdom.

Paul also tells us that God does not renege on His promises and therefore does not go back on His promises to the people to whom He made these promises:

Romans 11:25-29
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: BUT as touching the election (choosing), they are beloved for the fathers' sakes (the sakes of the Patriarchs, their genetic fathers).
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (without changing His mind).
KJV

Study this last passage well. Gentiles are "new layers on the onion"; they do not replace it!

The Song of Miriam speaks to Israel being redeemed and the Kings are going to be cast down. There will be a time, times and half a time away from the beast system. A blow to the head of the system is coming. There

will be the joining of the elect of both Jew and Gentile. God will seal his elect. Satan has his covenant too. They are the Masonics who will hide themselves in the mountains Rev. 6:12 this is what is at hand. The sixth seal.

The Revelation 12 and it's sign in the heavens represents this. Israel will see the fullness of the sign. Then a great calamity will occur. I can not give exact times that is for God. But know -it is at the door.

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1 hour ago, Sojourner414 said:

Right: Israel is Israel and the Church is the Church. They have two different destinies, and Paul goes to great lengths in Romans to establish this.

On that note: I consider it attempted spiritual theft to try to claim "the Church is Israel", as specific promises were made to Israel and by claiming Israel's identity, whoever subscribes to that is also falsely trying to claim their promises as well.

There is only one people of God. There is no Two People, Two Promises.  That idea is just a construct of the rapture to heaven of the Church believers.

Ethnic Judah, the Jewish State of Israel, is not a body of God's people in addition to the Church, as if God had two separate bodies of saints. The non-Christian Jewish people, are not at present a people of God at all.

 On the other hand, God is not forever done with them, and does not treat or view the ethnic, unbelieving Jews, as He does all other ungodly peoples. He treats them much more severely, because they have the Law and the Prophets, while rejecting the Messiah. Yet at the end of this age, God will take some of the Jews and bring them into the one Body of Christ, with subsequent special blessings to them and their children for one thousand years.

We can view true believers as Israel while not supporting Replacement Theology.

Pre-tribbers making this accusation, do so to protect their Two People, Two Promises  position, vital for supporting their pre-trib rapture theory. That is: when God’s holy people are depicted in the Bible as living on earth during the final 7 years of this era; Danil 7:25 & Revelation 13:7, pre-tribbers must see them as ethnic Israel, rather than Church saints. Why? In order to believe that Church saints are not on earth during the Week. Thus, they wrongly proclaim two separate bodies of saints, and that each one is treated differently according to their different dispensations. So now you know why pre-tribbers invented yet another error, their Dispensation Theology: to accommodate the TP-TP view.

It is not enough for pre-tribbers to prove what we already know, that the Jewish people will be dealt with by God in the last days, and that Jesus will then set up a Kingdom of Israel on earth that He will rule for 1000 years. That being true, it doesn't make the ethnic Jews a Body of God's people between the Crucifixion and the Return of Jesus. Jews not joining the Church by faith in Jesus, are not to be viewed as a second Body of God, and ethnic Jews destined to be saved are now and will be, incorporated into the one Body of God: the true Christian Church. Those who revolt and rebel are destined for destruction. Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 10:18, Luke 1

 

I do not espouse Replacement Theology, because I acknowledge that God still has plans for ethnic Israel. According to numerous prophesies, the overall Plan will first begin with God's wrath against the Jews, which plainly shows they are not saints or the elect, as pre-tribbers wrongly maintain and it is only a remnant who will change. Romans 9:27 Now, for pointing out this forthcoming judgement/punishment of Judah, Revelation 3:9, Ezekiel 21:1-8, Amos 2:4-5, the pre-tribbers will accuse me, for being anti-Semitic, a false and extremely unchristian accusation!

 

The wrong and unscriptural belief in a rapture removal to heaven before the wrath of God comes, teaches the Christian people not to prepare for life in the last few years of this age, so the rapture lie will be responsible for much suffering in the Church.

Do not be deceived. God did not "replace" Israel with the Church, but Old-Testament Israel and the New-Testament Church are one, and have always been one. It was the leadership of Israel that was replaced at the Cross, given to the Apostles when taken away from the Sanhedrin/Pharisees, but this in no way means that Jesus started a new Body called the "Church." Old-Testament Israel was the Church, Acts 7:38

Indeed, the "church of Israel" is a phrase found throughout the Old Testament...over a hundred times...but usually translated into our English Bibles as "congregation or assembly of Israel"

The simple and obvious truth, is that the Christian Church is the one, true Israel of God and they remain on earth to fulfil their God given tasks and destiny. 

 

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"The above 10 proofs totally negate any argument that the Church and Israel are 2 separate entities."

Your 10 proofs do no such thing .... Israel is a national entity, the "church" is composed of all saved of both some of Israel and the balance of the Gentiles

 

I do not espouse Replacement Theology, because I acknowledge that God still has plans for ethnic Israel. According to numerous prophesies, the overall Plan will first begin with God's wrath against the Jews, which plainly shows they are not saints or the elect, as pre-tribbers wrongly maintain and it is only a remnant who will change. Romans 9:27 Now, for pointing out this forthcoming judgement/punishment of Judah, Revelation 3:9, Ezekiel 21:1-8, Amos 2:4-5, the pre-tribbers will accuse me, for being anti-Semitic, a false and extremely unchristian accusation!"

 

You are not teaching Biblical truth my friend .... Israel is national Israel and set to experience the coming tribulation

Today's "church" of both some of Israel and the Gentiles will be made immortal just before

Your current organization is teaching you that you have become Israel .... this is an off shoot of the false profit Herbert W. Armstrong's teaching

Leave it and return to the scriptures for truth 

Edited by Daniel 11:36

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16 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"But every faithful Christian IS an Israelite of God"

Not true

Your infatuation with your statement above is clearly refuted

Israel is "Israel".... the "church" is a completely different body of both Israel and Gentiles for a different reason

You need to dump your ideas contrived by the religious off shoot of your "church" and return to the scriptures

Galatians 6:16 is strictly about Paul speaking those of Israel and not Gentiles

  

Shalom, Daniel 11:36.

Sorry, my friend, but you, too, are in error, however minor. While you understand that there is a difference between the nations of Israel and the Goyim (Gentiles), FOR WHICH I COMMEND YOU, you've failed to recognize that Goyim are grafted into the Olive Tree of Yeshua`s Kingdom, which will be known as Isra'el, consisting of both actual children of Israel naturally AND those who have been adopted through the Messiah Yeshua` (the Christ Jesus), "contrary to nature." (Romans 11:17-25.)

Modern Christianity is too enamored with the term "church," particularly if they insist on capitalizing it as "Church!" All the word "church" means is a "called-out" group of people, from the Greek word "ekkleesia." The English word, "church" itself, simply identifies it as "the Lord's" called-out group of people, "church" coming from the Greek word "kuriokon," meaning "of the Lord." When one realizes that it is simply a participle acting as a gerund, it is a term that simply means a "town meeting." One can see this is true if one simply looks at how the word "ekkleesia" was used in Acts 19, translated as "assembly" in the KJV.

As a "town meeting," a LOCAL "church," and that we are each members of that body, it's pretty hard for a "finger" in Albuquerque to scratch a "nose" in Timbuktu! There's simply NO SUCH THING as a "universal body" or a "universal Church!" Such an entity shall not exist until we are ALL gathered together in the Resurrection!

Furthermore, the first such "town meeting" was found in Stephen's sermon in Acts 7:

Acts 7:35-40
35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church (Greek: ekkleesia) in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
KJV

("Wot," by the way, is the past participle of "to wit," meaning "to know." Thus, "we wot not" means "we don't know.")

Therefore, the first "called-out" group of YHWH (the LORD) was THE CONGREGATION OF ISRAEL when God led them through the wilderness and delivered to them the Covenant and the Law from Mount Sinai.

While those who are children of Israel (often simply and inaccurately called "Jews") are a different nation from others who are collectively called "Goyim" ("Gentiles"), IN CHRIST - that is, IN THE MESSIAH - we have the "middle wall of partition broken down" between us. However, that is ONLY true within the Messiah.

OUTSIDE of the Messiah, the children of Israel are HOLY; that is, they are SINGLED OUT for God's SPECIAL attention! That's because God has a SPECIAL relationship with the children of Israel for the sakes of the Patriarchs! After all, they were the FAMILY from which His Son -  the Son of God - was born! The whole nation, the children of Israel, is His Family, His Mishpachah! Thus, you absolutely MUST understand that He will hold His own family in high esteem.

Exodus 31:16-17
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
KJV

 

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