2 Thessalonians 2:6-7

[OldCoot]

On 9/2/2017 at 4:19 AM, Diaste said:

For many years I heard the above passage referred to the Holy Spirit or Micheal the Archangel, depending on the author. I believe I have heard it's a reference to the Church as well. Obviously the idea is that either the HS, Micheal, or the Church, is removed from the scene and then the beast is revealed to do his evil work.

Recently, maybe not so recently, a Pastor has said this actually means the revealing of the beast is withholding the return of Jesus. As in, Jesus will only return after the two events of 2 Thess 2:3. The idea just came to my attention and I would like to say it has merit.

A short investigation certainly seems to confirm the accuracy of this idea.

 

I have generally viewed the HS job as that of the servant who was commanded to seek out a wife for Isaac in Genesis 24.  The HS job is to seek out, teach, prepare, and deliver a group of called out believers to Yeshua as a chaste, virgin, like the servant of Abraham whose job it was to seek out, teach, and deliver Isaac's bride to him. The HS job is to protect that called out group, the church, until that is accomplished.  Once that job is finished, like the servant of Abraham who is no longer the focus of the story and not mentioned again, the HS steps out of the way.   It is akin to a guard or tackle that protects the quarterback in American football.  The HS steps out of the way and allows the false messiah / man of sin to be revealed and evil to advance.  

The HS is not removed, as it is only the revealing work of the HS that can cause one to come to faith in Messiah, and there will be more who believe during the time of trouble that is coming upon the earth.

So the conclusion I have generally held is the entity that is removed or taken out of the way is the Church.  Delivered to the Messiah by the HS.   

Edited September 10, 2017 by OldCoot

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, OldCoot said:

So the conclusion I have generally held is the entity that is removed or taken out of the way is the Church.  Delivered to the Messiah by the HS.   

Which might make sense except that the man of sin is given authority over the saints.  So, why does the church need to be removed?    How can something that you are given authority over be a hinderance to you?

• He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.  Daniel 7:25

Something to think about.

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

Which might make sense except that the man of sin is given authority over the saints.  So, why does the church need to be removed?    How can something that you are given authority over be a hinderance to you?

• He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.  Daniel 7:25

Something to think about.

Except "saints" does not mean "church" all the time in scripture.   There are several references to saints in the OT (not only in Daniel) which was before the church.  The church being removed does not negate that some will still come to faith during the tribulation period.  The 144,000 immediately comes to mind.

Edited September 11, 2017 by OldCoot

[Last Daze]

21 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Except "saints" does not mean "church" all the time in scripture.   There are several references to saints in the OT (not only in Daniel) which was before the church.  The church being removed does not negate that some will still come to faith during the tribulation period.  The 144,000 immediately comes to mind.

That may be true but the "church" is still considered saints, isn't it?  Unless you're suggesting some heirarchy of saints, then the church can't be considered a hinderence because he has authority over the saints.  If you are, then please elaborate.

[OldCoot]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

That may be true but the "church" is still considered saints, isn't it?  Unless you're suggesting some heirarchy of saints, then the church can't be considered a hinderence because he has authority over the saints.  If you are, then please elaborate.

I never said that those in the body of Christ are not saints.  But saints in the church are not the only saints.  Deuteronomy, Job, 1 Samuel, 2 Chronicles, and dozens of passages in Psalms all mention the saints of the most high, and none of those are eschatological passages.  Saints are qadosh or holy ones.  Believers in the church are likewise called holy.  But the holy ones in the OT were not in the church.  Doesn't make them less or more holy.  God is the one who makes people holy.  Same with those in the church.  They are no less holy or more so.  The church is just a different entity that came about at Shavuot/Pentacost and will be removed. 

I don't believe in a hierarchy  of saints.  Just separate but equal categories.  Abraham was declared righteous but he never was in the Church. And we are told in various passages in the NT that we must have the faith of Abraham to be saved.  The same faith is what is required for God to declare us justified.  Not what category we are in.  The church doesn't save anyone.  A faith like Abraham's does.

Likewise, if the church is removed Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, or Pre-wrath, any that come to faith in God after that will still be saints.  Just in that case, they will not be OT saints, or church saints.  They would be the tribulation saints.  But it is the same faith that is required by God who declares them holy.

And what of those who come to faith in the Millennial kingdom?  Would it not also be on the basis of having the same faith?   

And Yeshua is the sacrifice for them all.  Remember, the first mention of a redeemer was clear back in the garden of Eden after Adam and Eve sinned.  Yeshua wasn't an after thought or a different direction God took.  Yeshua was the solution to the problem of mankind's sin all along.

So simple. I guess that might be why it is so hard for some to grasp. We are all fallen creatures and just seem compelled to complicate things.

Edited September 11, 2017 by OldCoot
Darn spell checker!

[ghtan]

It is unlikely the church is the one doing the holding back because church in greek is feminine whereas the one holding back is masculine/neuter. The Holy Spirit is grammatically neuter but is also masculine because it is the third person of the trinity.

[Last Daze]

5 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I never said that those in the body of Christ are not saints.  But saints in the church are not the only saints.  Deuteronomy, Job, 1 Samuel, 2 Chronicles, and dozens of passages in Psalms all mention the saints of the most high, and none of those are eschatological passages.  Saints are qadosh or holy ones.  Believers in the church are likewise called holy.  But the holy ones in the OT were not in the church.  Doesn't make them less or more holy.  God is the one who makes people holy.  Same with those in the church.  They are no less holy or more so.  The church is just a different entity that came about at Shavuot/Pentacost and will be removed. 

I don't believe in a hierarchy  of saints.  Just separate but equal categories.  Abraham was declared righteous but he never was in the Church. And we are told in various passages in the NT that we must have the faith of Abraham to be saved.  The same faith is what is required for God to declare us justified.  Not what category we are in.  The church doesn't save anyone.  A faith like Abraham's does.

I don't disagree with this.  My point is that the church, which is made up of saints, is not the hinderance because the man of sin is given authority over saints.  How can something that you are given authority over be a hinderance to you?

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I don't disagree with this.  My point is that the church, which is made up of saints, is not the hinderance because the man of sin is given authority over saints.  How can something that you are given authority over be a hinderance to you?

I don't think the church is necessarily the hindrance either, and neither are the tribulation saints, but the HS who's job it is to teach and grow the church.  Then the church is "handed off" to the Messiah, but the HS is not removed but just "taken out of the way" like a road block just moved to the side so that the traffic can now move thru.  The HS will still be doing a lot of work during the tribulation period but will not be restraining evil in the same way that He has up till that time.  No one can come to faith without the HS drawing them. So the HS is going to still be around.

 

Edited September 11, 2017 by OldCoot

[Diaste]

On 9/7/2017 at 7:59 PM, GusWilby said:

Hi Diaste,

It looks like I unintentionally got your post off track with some heated conflict with another individual.  I want to apologize and ask your forgiveness.  I recognize you have valid inquiries and it was in error that I did not respect that.

So regarding your initial thoughts on 2 Thess. 2: 6-7...

I too have found that the variety of translations and interpretations, this has been quite a controversial passage of Scripture.  If taken as a literal word for word translation (and then put into English), it says something to the effect of, (if I may paraphrase merely for clarity): "you know what withholds, he (most likely referring to Messiah), will be revealed in his time; the mystery of wickedness has been and will be working, but he who let's it happen (God) will let it happen, until he (man of lawlessness) is taken out of the way."

Simply put, evil is here, it will continue, God is waiting for the right time for the Messiah to be revealed.. The 'man of lawnessness' will be identified when he proclaims himself to be God, and then the Messiah will return and take him out of the way, putting an end to many centuries of Satan's control.  

That being said, there is a great deal of controversy over this verse, although I find it much easier to understand when I remove everyone's differing viewpoints.

Shalom

Nothing to forgive. I read the posts and you are spot on. It's not right to judge another's heart nor generalize based on such scant proof. But that's how it is today. Many judge a thing based on visceral reaction and do not take the time to understand. A grave error in my opinion.

I agree with you on this. I do not see the HS, Micheal or the church here. The context is the 2nd coming and the gathering and the timing of both. So then it should be understood as the man of sin and his revealing is what withholds Jesus return and the gathering.

[Diaste]

On 9/10/2017 at 11:17 PM, OldCoot said:

I never said that those in the body of Christ are not saints.  But saints in the church are not the only saints.  Deuteronomy, Job, 1 Samuel, 2 Chronicles, and dozens of passages in Psalms all mention the saints of the most high, and none of those are eschatological passages.  Saints are qadosh or holy ones.  Believers in the church are likewise called holy.  But the holy ones in the OT were not in the church.  Doesn't make them less or more holy.  God is the one who makes people holy.  Same with those in the church.  They are no less holy or more so.  The church is just a different entity that came about at Shavuot/Pentacost and will be removed. 

I don't believe in a hierarchy  of saints.  Just separate but equal categories.  Abraham was declared righteous but he never was in the Church. And we are told in various passages in the NT that we must have the faith of Abraham to be saved.  The same faith is what is required for God to declare us justified.  Not what category we are in.  The church doesn't save anyone.  A faith like Abraham's does.

Likewise, if the church is removed Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, or Pre-wrath, any that come to faith in God after that will still be saints.  Just in that case, they will not be OT saints, or church saints.  They would be the tribulation saints.  But it is the same faith that is required by God who declares them holy.

And what of those who come to faith in the Millennial kingdom?  Would it not also be on the basis of having the same faith?   

And Yeshua is the sacrifice for them all.  Remember, the first mention of a redeemer was clear back in the garden of Eden after Adam and Eve sinned.  Yeshua wasn't an after thought or a different direction God took.  Yeshua was the solution to the problem of mankind's sin all along.

So simple. I guess that might be why it is so hard for some to grasp. We are all fallen creatures and just seem compelled to complicate things.

That you seem so sincere in your conclusions truly grieves me.