2 Thessalonians 2:6-7

[Daniel 11:36]

"Both Satan and i know there is nothing that will entrench an idea more than a good crisis, stiff opposition, or in this case, a timely misappropriation. Now you have new agers using the idea but with an alien origin. Not only that but these same pawns of Satan appropriate the earthly upheavals that signal the time of the end. 

Far from discrediting the pre trib rapture the actions of the new agers serve to cement the idea of the pretrib rapture in the hearts and minds of those so predisposed. 

Believers only see it as proof positive of the pre trib rapture because, "How dare these new agers use the scriptures for their own ends? They are blaspheming God and His great hope!" And so pre trib is not denigrated but promoted."

 

I believe that you and Satan are wrong

[frienduff thaylorde]

Perhaps instead of twisting second thess to fit a concept that never existed in original doctrine.  How bout we read second thess the first chapter

So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions that you endure.  Which IS

a manifest token of the RIGHTEOUS judgement of God that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God for which you suffer.

Seeing also it is a Righteous thing with GOD to recompense tribulation to those Who trouble you, and unto you REST with us, W    H     E     N

W    H    E    N

WHEN the LORD JESUS shall be revealed FROM HEAVEN with His mighty angels , in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not

God and that obey not the gospel of our Lord JESUS Christ , who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the PRESENCE of the LORD

and from the glory of his power, WHEN    WHEN     WHEN

HE shall come to be glorified in His saints.       ONE TIME EVENT .   ONE TIME EVENT.

AT JESUS COMING its to gather us and lay down THE WRATH.     PRETRIBBERS..........ya been LIED TOO>

[frienduff thaylorde]

Stead of letting men twist scrips.  WHY DONT WE JUST READ THE BIBLE FOR OURSELVES.

No church taught me this

By simple reading and seeking it came so clear all on its own.      Jesus don't make TWO APPEARINGS

that was a lie because they could not go around what scrips plainly say.  SO in order to keep up with pretrib, they INVENTED two comings

one in secret , then antoher one later.  THIS is not in the scrips at all.

IN fact JESUS said IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION in those days will they see the sign of the coming of the son of man

AS he does what...........gathers his elect from the corners of the earth and the tribes mourn due to they go under HIS WRATH.   

We been lied to folks .  pretrib is mans invention.    Cause many a soul has sat under the concept of a GOD that just makes us rich with money and serves our every need

and would NEVER let us suffer for his name sake.    RIGHT .    We are BORN for persecution .  Tis the righteous judgment of GOD.

What makes the last generation SO much better than paul or scores of men and women who have suffered severly at the hands of men.

Ya been lied to .  Most have no desire to have to die or suffer for Christ , just make my life EASY O LORD and hand me some money too.   False gosples

lead to false everything .

[frienduff thaylorde]

Now brace yourselves people and be prepared to lose all for his name sake.   we about to undergo the greatest tribulation that has ever been.

At its end their will be more dead Christians , killed in the name of love , unity , world peace than in every generation combined and how fast it will be.

As in time the all inclusive sin loving , evil called good and good evil interfaith relgion leads the world right to the beast.

Its coming , it wont be stopped.  So stop trying to imagine a plane ticket out of suffering and instead get ready in CHRIST NOW , NOW

to endure an all out hellacious betrayal and great tribulation coming for all who loved Christ and HE alone.   Its coming .   its building up as we speak.

GLORY GLORY to the LORD and fear not man , fear not what is coming , just embrace and love truth and be prepared to die for his name sake.

[OldCoot]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

Please....when a thing is said that isn't the truth what is it called? 

Error, mistake, false, etc.  But not necessarily a lie.  A lie is when someone knows what they are saying is false and are intentionally trying to deceive others.  Regarding this issue, that cannot be said with certainty.  On all sides, there are those that passionately believe what they are espousing.  But not everyone is correct, obviously.  That doesn't mean those that are wrong are lying.  You are trying to demean others by making accusations that you have no basis to make.  That is violating the 9th commandment, whether you choose to accept that or not.

There are many Bible expositors that I greatly admire that don't hold the same positions on every issue I do.  But I would never call them liars.  I think they are mistaken on some things.

Edited October 18, 2017 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

but pretrib has been promoted with a thousand books and hundreds of authors for over 150 years.

Of course it has been promoted by books and hundreds of authors for the last 150 years, mass publication on a substantial scale and the internet was not available prior to that.  But that doesn't mean the idea didn't have any support before that.  Isaac Newton, who wrote a lot of commentary on scripture, held the view 100 years before John Darby was born. Ephraim the Syrian, of the Eastern Orthodox church, we have a sermon of his where he unequivocally promoted a pre-trib removal of the righteous.  And that was roughly the 3rd century.  The Pre-trib position is hardly new.  Now, that doesn't make it correct, but it has some validity as an argument.  It can hardly be equated to a lie.

In the overall scheme of things, I would be willing to bet that EVERYONE has some aspect of how these things will play out, wrong.  None of us wrote the Bible or inspired it.

But as for the 150 years you mention, 150 years before Cyrus conquered Babylon in roughly 538 BC, Isaiah wrote about a removal of the righteous before the cataclysmic events of the last days, which included both the righteous dead (resurrected) and the righteous living being hidden from those events, as per Isaiah 26.  Zephaniah 2 and Psalm 27 support that.  Many of the prophets wrote that this would happen at the start of the birth pains, which Jeremiah specifically says the birth pains are the Time of Jacob's Trouble, which is seen as the Great Tribulation period Israel will be saved out of.   Isaiah 66 and Jeremiah 30 speak of this.

Even in Revelation 12, the woman (Israel) gives birth to the male child, which is immediately and forcibly caught up (harpazo) to the throne of God.  Some argue that this is the Messiah, but Yeshua was never forcibly caught up to God's throne either at His birth or at His ascension.  It would seem to be the body of Messiah, the ekklesia, which was conceived in Jerusalem at Pentacost by the Holy Spirit.   But this child rules with a rod of iron and that can only be the Messiah Himself, right?  Wrong.  Revelation 2:26-27 says that all believers who overcome will rule with a rod of iron with Messiah.   So Revelation 12 could indeed be speaking of the body of Messiah.   Yeshua is the head, the believers are the body.  And this passage has allusions to the birth pains mentioned in the Tanakh passages above.

So the concept of a removal of the righteous before the Tribulation period has some support in scripture.   Paul commended the Bereans for searching the scriptures daily to see if what Paul taught them was true.  All they had was the Tanakh, or more commonly known as the Old Testament.  The prophecy regarding the end times in the Tanakh eclipses the totality of end time prophecy in the NT in both amount of words and detail.  For instance, Ezekiel outlines events that one could show from the latest government Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical warfare manuals regarding cleanup and disposal procedures after a nuclear event.   No NT passage goes into that kind of detail.  Likewise, Zechariah 14 shows in detail what could be described as what happens to a human body when a NBC event occurs.

Scripture points out that no issue can be determined without the testimony of 2 or more witnesses.  We have those, the Tanakh (OT) and the NT.  And both show support for a removal of the righteous early in the end times scenario.  Conclusively beyond any shadow of a doubt?  Maybe not. But the support for the contention is there.

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by OldCoot

[When Is Jesus Coming?]

2 Thessalonians 2:3-7

3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

The apostasy is in reference to the church and this is how the restrainer (the church) is removed (Not the rapture). Without the bulk of the church on Earth evil will become unrestrained and anti-Christ will be revealed. In Paul's day Nero was the one who was being restrained (a type of anti-Christ), this was what he meant by the mystery of lawlessness already at work. 

[Diaste]

On 10/17/2017 at 7:58 PM, OldCoot said:

Error, mistake, false, etc.  But not necessarily a lie.  A lie is when someone knows what they are saying is false and are intentionally trying to deceive others.  Regarding this issue, that cannot be said with certainty.  On all sides, there are those that passionately believe what they are espousing.  But not everyone is correct, obviously.  That doesn't mean those that are wrong are lying.  You are trying to demean others by making accusations that you have no basis to make.  That is violating the 9th commandment, whether you choose to accept that or not.

There are many Bible expositors that I greatly admire that don't hold the same positions on every issue I do.  But I would never call them liars.  I think they are mistaken on some things.

I would imagine there are a great many topics in the bible that can elude exacting conclusions. And I agree there are as many takes on some biblical topics as there are people who delve into these topics. But we are not talking about a judicial process where the only thing that matter is what can be proven and the truth is a secondary consideration. There is only one truth in any thing. There is right and wrong. Good and bad. Good and evil. Truth and lies. This isn't a diplomatic mission or a political round table. We engage in profound detection of the mysteries of the one true God. 

Your quote from above: "But not everyone is correct, obviously.  That doesn't mean those that are wrong are lying." Not everyone is correct but that doesn't mean they are wrong??? If they ain't correct they ain't right!! This is a diplomatic, political, fence riding position.

I might indeed be in violation of the 9th commandment if I was bearing false witness. An example of false witness is when someone says they did something they did not do. Like Gore saying he invented the internet. Or if a person says they didn't do something they did. Like when a child steals a cookie and then denies it. Both are lies. False witness also applies when people witness falsely against others. Or like politicians do when they ignore context and spin sound bites to promote party agendas or discredit opposition. I'm doing none of the above. My witness on this is only true through the reliance on the Lord and trust in His promises and His written Word. 

Jesus laid it out in concise manner in Matt 24. The immutable order follows:

Beginning of Sorrows (first half)

A of D (middle of the week)

Great tribulation (most of the second half)

Jesus appears

Gathering of the elect

Wrath of God (balance of the second half)

No other scenario is possible as these are the Words Of Jesus Christ as recorded when asked about the end of the age. If pretrib were true then you think Jesus would have mentioned a stunning worldwide disappearance of 100's of millions of people before the Beginning of Sorrows, when asked specifically and when He gave a very specific and detailed answer. 

[Diaste]

On 10/17/2017 at 1:00 PM, WilliamL said:

I'm serious as a heart attack. Early church elders such as Tertullian and Hippolytus were a lot closer to the time of Paul than you or I, as well as much more knowledgeable about the consequences for lack of circumspection in writing about the Empire and Emperor. Of course, Paul was beheaded by said empire for his teachings anyway.

The scuttlebutt of the time was that when he wrote "And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time," that which restrained was the ruling power of the time, which ruling power Paul was obliquely prophesying would collapse. Whereas, in contrast, anyone advocating "prot0-Catholocism" would been a defender of the Empire, as the Roman Church came to be.

I take this to be the time prophesied in Daniel 11-12:

Dan. 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land [Israel]... 45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas at  the glorious holy mountain [= the Abomination of Desolation and 2 Thes. 2:4]; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time [= the Great Tribulation]: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake...  [= the resurrection of the dead just prior to the Rapture].

By this I presume that you are presuming that the Beast = the Son of Perdition. For which you did not provide a lick of prophetic scriptural evidence.

 

 

I think this is a convolution. Great tribulation and the coming of Jesus and the gathering are not the same thing. Just what is Paul talking about in 2 Thess 2? There is no oblique reference if the entire text is employed discerning the truth.

2 Thess

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The question here concerns the Coming of Jesus and the gathering of us to Him. Both events forever linked in time/space. Paul says that day had not come no matter what rumors were floating about. Paul now says when the day (Jesus coming AND the gathering) will occur.  The man of sin and the son of perdition are the same person in a normal reading. The fact that this person is now prophesied to, "opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." means this is the beast/AC and both "the man of sin, the son of perdition," are descriptions of the one person that will sit in the Temple declaring himself god. 

And even if this is two different people, the beast and the false prophet say, Jesus appearance and the gathering only occurs after this revealing and taking a seat in the Temple.

Now the same context exists in the next passage:

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

This means the beast is the "what is restraining". "Now you know what is restraining", directly after the explanation of timing for the appearance of Jesus and the gathering. More accurately, the events of the revealing of the beast, sitting in the Temple, declaring himself god, and exalting himself have to occur before Jesus appears and we are gathered to him.

Witness this study concerning the OP and 2 Thess 2:7.

Greek:

μόνον ὁ κατέχων ἄρτι ἕως ἐκ μέσου γένηται.

Transliterated Greek:

...monon arti kateco heos ginomai ek mesos

 

KJV:                 only       he who now       letteth        [will let],

Literal Greek:  Merely      just now        hold fast        until.

 

KJV :                  until               he be taken             out of               the way. 

Literal Greek:     until               to emerge           from out of         in the midst.

"Only he who now letteth will let until he be taken out of the way" makes sense in light of this.

The beast is what is restraining the coming of Jesus until the beast is revealed. This all fits in with the revealing of the beast at the midpoint or, "emerges in the midst" is the last week.

Consider:

 

‘Ginomai’ (he be taken)

Definition

to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen of events to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage of men appearing in public to be made, finished of miracles, to be performed, wrought to become, be made

‘Mesos’ (the way)

Definition

middle the midst in the midst of, amongst

These are the two most important points from the verse in question and they completely change the understanding of 2 Thess 2:7. This is a profound change especially in light of the real meaning of “what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.” In context what withholds is the fulfillment of apostasia and the revealing of the man of sin, that Jesus may be revealed in His time. The context of the passage is the 2^nd coming and the fear of the people they missed it. Paul explains they did not miss this and relates what must occur first. Since apostasia and the revealing must happen before Jesus returns, WHAT withholds, not WHO, are the coming events of apostasia, and the revealing of the man of sin, and what they are withholding is the 2^nd coming and the gathering of the elect.

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2017 by Diaste

[Diaste]

On 10/17/2017 at 3:40 PM, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Both Satan and i know there is nothing that will entrench an idea more than a good crisis, stiff opposition, or in this case, a timely misappropriation. Now you have new agers using the idea but with an alien origin. Not only that but these same pawns of Satan appropriate the earthly upheavals that signal the time of the end. 

Far from discrediting the pre trib rapture the actions of the new agers serve to cement the idea of the pretrib rapture in the hearts and minds of those so predisposed. 

Believers only see it as proof positive of the pre trib rapture because, "How dare these new agers use the scriptures for their own ends? They are blaspheming God and His great hope!" And so pre trib is not denigrated but promoted."

 

I believe that you and Satan are wrong

Free will is a great thing, isn't it? One can believe what they desire to, for any reason, and truth and logic are secondary concerns.