2 Thessalonians 2:6-7

[WilliamL]

On 11/1/2017 at 12:58 PM, WilliamL said:

Let's put the closely related prophecies together:

Matt 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place... 21 then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been... 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days...the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 ...and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

Dan. 11:40 “At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind... [41-43 enter and occupy the Holy Land; subdue Egypt, Libya, and Cush (prob. = Sudan); but not subdue or occupy Edom/Moab/Edom (= the whole or parts of the current nations of Jordan and Saudi Arabia) 44 But news from the east [towards Iraq and Iran] and the north [towards Russia and/or Turkey] shall trouble him... 45 And he shall plant the tents of his pavilion between the seas at the glorious holy mountain; but he shall come to his end, and no one will help him. 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, ...And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was... 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake..."

2 Thes 2:1 ...concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him... 3 that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called a god or that is worshiped, so that he sits as a god in the naos/holy place/sanctuary of God, showing himself that he is a god. ... 8...the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Beginning at Daniel 11:40, we see IN THE END TIMES a king/potentate to the south of the Holy Land, which south is currently all Islamic, attacking somehow a ruler of the North, having the descendancy of the Graeco-Roman culture. The latter ruler invades from north to south, occupying/entering (seemingly peacefully) Israel, and then forcefully invades Islamic Egypt, Libya, and southwards; but neither Jordan nor Saudi Arabia -- currently allies of America and Europe -- are troubled at all. This ruler ends up setting up his quarters on the Temple Mount; then he comes to his end around the time of the Great Tribulation and subsequent resurrection of the dead.

Now, if people can't see the fit between this passage, and what Jesus prophesied about the same period in the End Times, and what Paul prophesied about the Son of Perdition likewise setting himself up in the Holy Place on the Temple Mount, but being brought to his end at the Coming of the Lord ... then those people are else either really ignorant of the Scriptures, or else they refuse to see something that runs contrary to their beliefs about the sequence of events of the End Times.

Everything described in the above passages describes a post-trib, but pre-wrath, Second Coming:

The Abomination of Desolation is accomplished by the Son of Perdition/King of the North; followed by the Great Tribulation; followed by the Resurrection of the Dead at the Second Coming, concurrent with the demise of the Son of Perdition.

At that point of the Second Coming, nothing at all concerning the post-Rev. 7 events that take place during the Wrath of God are even hinted at, with the exception of the hint of the future invasion from out of the east.

I believe a prophecy of Balaam directly speaks about this time:

 

Dan. 11:40 At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships...

Num. 24:24 And ships shall come from the coast [lit. hand] of Kittim [lands west from the Middle East]...

 

Dan. 11:40 and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through. 41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many shall stumble/become weak-legged...

Num. 24:24 ...and shall afflict Asshur/Assyria [area covering parts of Syria, Iraq, and southern Turkey, all now in conflict], and shall afflict Eber [the Hebrews/Jews/Israel]...

 

Dan. 11:45 ...but he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.

Num. 24:24 ...and he also shall perish for ever.

 

The Kittim in the most ancient times referred to those who became the Romans, according to the Book of Jasher, which was written in the same era as this prophecy by Balaam:

Jasher 10:16 And the children of Kittim are the Romim who dwell in the valley of Canopia by the river Tibreu.

Likewise, the "ships of Kittim" mentioned in Dan. 11:30, who "came against" Antichus IV Epiphanes and drove him out of Egypt, were Roman ships carrying a Roman envoy.

This is why I believe the King of the North will be one of the Western powers -- those having a Graeco-Roman heritage -- and not Turkey. Antiochus IV Epiphanes was of the royal bloodline of the Syrian Seleucids, but he came from Rome at the time that he 'came in peaceably, and seized the kingdom by flatteries/slickness.' (Dan. 11:21) He had been held hostage in Rome for 14 years beginning in his youth, and had become substantially Romanized. So he was the first King of the North to have the Graeco-Roman hybridization. Through his establishment of an "abomination of desolation" on the Holy Mountain (Dan. 11:31), he became the ultimate type of the Latter Day Son of Perdition.

[n2thelight]

On 9/2/2017 at 5:19 AM, Diaste said:

For many years I heard the above passage referred to the Holy Spirit or Micheal the Archangel, depending on the author. I believe I have heard it's a reference to the Church as well. Obviously the idea is that either the HS, Micheal, or the Church, is removed from the scene and then the beast is revealed to do his evil work.

Recently, maybe not so recently, a Pastor has said this actually means the revealing of the beast is withholding the return of Jesus. As in, Jesus will only return after the two events of 2 Thess 2:3. The idea just came to my attention and I would like to say it has merit.

A short investigation certainly seems to confirm the accuracy of this idea.

The investigation is spot on.

 

[n2thelight]

On 9/2/2017 at 7:21 AM, Amazing Horse said:

2 Thessalonians 2:6 says Church must be removed

2 Thessalonians 2:8 for antichrist to be revealed .

II Thessalonians 2:6 "And now ye know what withholdeth [that which restraineth to the end] that he might be revealed in his time [own season]."

"And now", is Paul's reminder to them that they did talk about this when he was with them in person. Who then is this one that would "be revealed in his time?"

The subject here is "the son of perdition", Satan, the Antichrist, or what ever name you desire to use for him. He is Satan, and Satan will commit the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 9:27; and the church will be here to see it, because the "gathering", or Christ's return follows this.

II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

There is no mystery around when this will take place, for we will know his methods of operation [withholdeth], and the signs, the seasons, and the times of Satan's arrival to earth. If you are in the Word of God and not following these "one verse preachers", you will know when to expect the Antichrist. You will also know within hours of when to expect our Lord Jesus Christ's return. Satan's reign on earth is not seven years because God reduced that time to five months for the "elect's" sake, as Jesus told us in Matthew 24:22. Jesus also revealed that the time is shortened to five months, to John in Revelation 9:5, and 10.

The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].

"Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2.

Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come. By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit, you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This false doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory". It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language; and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth, and the shepherd is assumed to be correct; in ignorance it is accepted just because he said it.

It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now.

Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels.

Revelation 12:8; "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today. Now we will see what Michael does with Satan, in fulfilling II Thessalonians 2:7.

Revelation 12:9; "And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet.

Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself.

II Thessalonians 2:8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, Whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of his mouth, and shall destroy [bring to naught] with the brightness [manifestation] of his coming:"

"The wicked" is better translated, "wicked one": What comes out of the Lord's mouth? It is the Truth. That is also the Word that God put in the mouth of Paul in this writing. Satan shall then be destroyed after being cast out, and also after standing in the holy place. After this is the time of Jesus Christ coming and gathering of His saints. There is no "anytime doctrine" here. It is in the course of certain events, and God lets us know clearly the order of these events, and exactly what to expect. In Matthew 24:15 Jesus is saying exactly what Paul is saying, Satan will come first and reign before the gathering of the saints.

Then Christ will destroy Satan.

[Diaste]

47 minutes ago, Davida said:

Where does the Bible  say this is Archangel Michael? 

Bible does not say this. It's an idea that was advanced in the past, something I heard. It's not biblical and I didn't give it any credence. 

[n2thelight]

20 hours ago, Davida said:

Where does the Bible  say this is Archangel Michael? 

Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Mi'-cha-el and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,,"

Daniel 12:1 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

Jude 1:9 - Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Daniel 10:13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia."

Do you know what kind of war this was? The prince of Persia is also called the prince of this earth. He also has many other names in the scriptures, such as the serpent, Lucifer, the great dragon, and king of Tyre; he is Satan, and shortly be know as the Antichrist.

Would it not stand to reason that it's Michael?

[Diaste]

On 11/6/2017 at 8:43 AM, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Truth. But what does "keep from the hour" mean? Pretrib demands it means a removal to heaven. Where is the proof of the definition to which you cling?

Maybe it just means a safe hiding place on earth. Maybe it means spiritual strength to endure. Maybe it's the idea that we escape the predators or are not noticed."

 

Means exactly what is said .... no  believer, dead or alive, will enter the tribulation period .... all will be taken up and made immortal just before the tribulation begins [Revelation 3:10; 7:9-17]

Some of the tribulation will become believers .... most will be killed and resurrected at the end of the tribulation period [Revelation 14:13; Revelation 20:4 .... and I saw the souls of them that were  beheaded] .... and some will enter and populate the Lord's coming millennial kingdom as mortals [Matthew 24:29-31; Matthew 25:31-40]

There are no "maybes" in the Lord's Word

   

Ok. Lets look at the fragment from Rev 3:10.

Rev 3:10, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation,"

Here it is in the Greek, more or less.

"Hoti tereo logos mou hupomone, kago tereo se ek hora peirasmos."

Literally,

"Because to watch over the word my enduring, me also to watch over you from a time a trial..."

That doesn't read to well but staying as literal as possible while being rigid with the actual words....

"Because you kept watch over my word to endure, I will keep watch over you from a time of trial... "

Now that's a bit different isn't it?

[Daniel 11:36]

You have made Revelation 3:10 different

"I will keep thee from the hour [time] of tribulation that is coming upon the whole world"

This is the proper meaning

The Lord will prevent His followers from entering the tribulation period by immortalizing them just before

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by Daniel 11:36

[simplejeff]

"immortalizing" ..... for clarity, isn't that what bronzers say they do for pay ?  Immortalize baby shoes by bronzing ?!?

There might be some difference there,   perhaps,  from Scripture ......  is that in Scripture somewhere 'immortalize' ?

(I know it is, just don't remember where..... )  Again,  "for clarity" ,  to reveal Yahweh's meaning .....

[Daniel 11:36]

Any human who will live eternally with the Lord must be immortalized .... changed from a mortal to immortality

[simplejeff]

4 hours ago, simplejeff said:

is that in Scripture somewhere 'immortalize' ?