Pre-Tribulation Proofs

[Amazing Horse]

36 minutes ago, TheBride123 said:

As I said, I will make a post. It is too confusing for those who may be following this debate to get the full scope of what I am saying. I will defend what I am saying in my post. Thank you for the challenge, I will meet it. Sometimes patience is needed- if I am to be found wrong afterwards then TOUCHE! I will humbly concede. I am only seeking truth. I will give understanding as to what the Hebrew trumpets meant to the Israelite's and what each trumpet represented. I feel this is important to the discussion. Because the old testament meanings are significant for today. God Bless!

You have been alredy proven wrong by not defeating multiple  arguments which i gave you , and there is alredy post in defence of post tribulation rapture so you don't have to make new one by the way .

[Justin Adams]

Well people, this is a lot to take in.

I do hope the unsaved do not get the wrong idea about us Christians. We do seem to bicker a lot.

I cannot tell who is correct at the moment, but I do have a few ideas of my own.
Since you all are so studied, I think I will keep them to myself right now.

However, I listened to a lecturer on YouTube and he said that witnessing goes hand in hand with (proven) prophesy, so the unlearned in these things may see for themselves how God reveals Himself - in an orderly and understandable way. Setting out a time-line showing what has, and what has not yet happened helped me to gain perspective (and not a little awe).

So bearing in mind that we are Advocates of The Lord  (and not agents of confusion), it probably behooves us to tread gently and be very, very clear about prophetic discussions. Pages and pages of dissertation tend to make my eyes glaze over...

No one needs to "prove God", He is proof in His own right. What I need, and maybe so do others is a more orderly and understandable time-line. For our mutual benefit, and the benefit of those that may just happen here on this site.

Thanks.

...a text out of context is a pretext...

 

[Amazing Horse]

3 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Well people, this is a lot to take in.

I do hope the unsaved do not get the wrong idea about us Christians. We do seem to bicker a lot.

I cannot tell who is correct at the moment, but I do have a few ideas of my own.
Since you all are so studied, I think I will keep them to myself right now.

However, I listened to a lecturer on YouTube and he said that witnessing goes hand in hand with (proven) prophesy, so the unlearned in these things may see for themselves how God reveals Himself - in an orderly and understandable way. Setting out a time-line showing what has, and what has not yet happened helped me to gain perspective (and not a little awe).

So bearing in mind that we are Advocates of The Lord  (and not agents of confusion), it probably behooves us to tread gently and be very, very clear about prophetic discussions. Pages and pages of dissertation tend to make my eyes glaze over...

No one needs to "prove God", He is proof in His own right. What I need, and maybe so do others is a more orderly and understandable time-line. For our mutual benefit, and the benefit of those that may just happen here on this site.

Thanks.

...a text out of context is a pretext...

 

Yes that's why you give to somebody bible verses which will defend themselfes , God does not need advocate . When you give to somebody vers who is contradicting his theory then you would assume that person would admit that he was wrong and change his mind , but this is not that easy people in general have too much pride in themselfes .

[Justin Adams]

Agreed. Thank you.

[missmuffet]

On 9/4/2017 at 7:56 PM, KiwiChristian said:

Proofs of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture (Errors of Post-Tribulation Rapture)

1. Revelation 19:11-21 does not mention a resurrection at the time of the glorious return of Christ.

2. Zechariah 14:1-5 does not mention a resurrection at the time of Christ’s glorious return. Why?

3. Not one Old Testament or NT passage which discusses the tribulation mentions the church.

4. The unknown day of the rapture, and the known day of the glorious appearing, cannot be the same day. Matthew 25:13.

5. ‘A door was opened in heaven’ (Rev. 4:1) to let John into heaven, is before the tribulation (Rev. 6).

6. ‘Come up hither’ (Rev 4:1). A voice called John to ‘come up hither’. Immediately he was in heaven.

7. The church is not on earth from Revelation 4-18, because of these observations:

i) The church on earth is mentioned 22 times in Revelation 1-3, but not once on earth from Rev. 5-19.
ii) The church is in heaven with resurrected bodies from Revelation 4-19 as seen by 9 statements.

8. The Rapture of the 24 elders of the church age (Revelation 4:1-11) occurs before the antichrist is revealed as the white horse rider at the beginning of the 7 years tribulation in Revelation 6:1,2.

The 24 Elders represent Old Testament and church age Christians raptured before the tribulation (Rev 5:9)

9. The 24 elders have their crowns of gold (Revelation 4:4).

10. The armies in heaven that follow Jesus Christ at His glorious appearing are church age Christians (Rev 19:14). They are not angels because Rev 19:8 reveals that the fine linen they are wearing is the righteousness of the saints (Revelation 19:8).

11. We are waiting for and looking for Jesus Christ to come and take us to heaven at the rapture. 12. ‘Wherefore comfort one another with these words’ (I Thessalonians 4:18).

13. ‘I also will keep thee out of (Greek: Τηρησω εк) the hour of temptation (the tribulation) which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth’ (Revelation 3:10).

14. Jesus returns from a Wedding to the church in heaven after the 7 years Tribulation. Luke 12:36.

15. The Restrainer (the church) will be taken out of the way before the antichrist is revealed at the start of the 7 year tribulation. (II Thessalonians 2:6-8).

16. At the rapture, Jesus receives us to Himself in heaven. We do not receive Him on earth (John 14:3)

17. The gathering of the tribulation elect after the 7 years tribulation is done by angels, but the gathering of the church is done by Jesus Christ Himself. (Matthew 24:31).

18. The righteous and wicked both can’t be taken first. Matthew 13:30,49.

19. Question 20: If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? (Matthew 25:31-46).

20. Question 21: Who will populate the millennium?

If a post-tribulation rapture occurs at the glorious appearing and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Nobody will be left with mortal, reproducing bodies. 21. Question 22: The judgment of Israel is discussed in Ezekiel 20:38, ‘I will purge out from among you the rebels.’ If all the saved (including saved Jews) had previously been separated a few days earlier by the rapture, there would be no need to separate saved Jews and lost Jews after Jesus Christ’s coming.

22. 14 Contrasts between the Rapture and the Glorious Appearing prove they are different events.

23. The Tribulation is called the time of Jacob’s trouble not the church’s trouble (Jeremiah 30:7). Question 25: How can the tribulation be called Jacob’s trouble for Israel and a blessed hope for the church, if both groups must go through it?

24. The focus of the Tribulation in the book of Revelation 7-18 on earth is on Israel, not the church:

25. The holy apostles and prophets who rejoice over Babylon’s destruction are in heaven. Rev 18:20

26. ‘The day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night’ (I Thessalonians 5:2).

27. ‘They’, ‘them’ and ‘they’ refer to unbelievers left behind after the rapture in I Thessalonians 5:3.

28. The church will not be ‘overtaken by the day of the Lord’ (I Thessalonians 5:4).

29. ‘For God hath not appointed us to wrath (of the tribulation), but to obtain salvation (deliverance from the tribulation) by our Lord Jesus Christ.’ (I Thessalonians 5:9).

‘Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath (tribulation) to come.’ (I Thessalonians 1:10). 1500

30. It is the character of God to deliver His own people from the greatest times of trials.

31. The ‘falling away’ (646) in II Thessalonians 2:3 is ‘the departure’ of the church and of the Holy Spirit’s influence in the church, before the antichrist is revealed. ‘Falling away’ (646) in Greek is ‘η apostasia’ a noun meaning something separative, a departure such as divorce (647), apostasy.

32. Only the pre-tribulation rapture position does not confuse the church and Israel, the church and the elect in different ages, tribulations and the tribulation period, and the trumpet of God and the trumpets of angels.

33. There is a time interval between Christ coming for his saints at the rapture of the church (Rev 4:1) and Christ coming with His saints at the glorious return of Christ (Rev. 19:11-21; Zechariah 14:1-5). If the rapture and glorious appearing occurred simultaneously, there would be no time for the Judgment Seat of Christ (II Cor. 5:10), the presenting of the church to Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:27), and the marriage of Christ to the church to take place. This time interval is stated in John 14:3. 34. Some people will escape the tribulation period. (Luke 21:34-36).

35. The church is not in Daniel’s 69 weeks period (Daniel 9:24-27), so it should not be in the70th week.

36. The structure of the book of Revelation proves the pre-tribulation rapture of the church.

37. At the rapture, believers go straight to the Father’s house (John 14:3), not straight back to earth as post-tribulationists think. ‘I will receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.’

38. The two purposes of Daniel’s 70th week are to test earth dwellers (Revelation 3:10) and to prepare Israel for the King (Malachi 4:5,6). These have no relation to the church whatsoever.

39. If the church enters the tribulation of God’s wrath, judgment and punishment, then because of her union with Christ, Christ would be subject to the same wrath, judgment and punishment of God.

40. The Silence in the New Testament Epistles on how to endure the tribulation.

41. The Relation of the church to earthly governments.

42. The Destiny of the church is to heaven (John 14:2,3). The destiny of the saved in the tribulation is not to heaven, but to the earth in the millennium.

‘Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom.’ (Matthew 25:34).

43. The doctrine of imminence (at any moment coming) forbids the church entering the tribulation.

44. The 144,000 Israelite preachers in the tribulation are not part of the church. (Revelation 7:14).

45. The only organized church in the tribulation is the apostate Jezebel system (Revelation 2:22) and the harlot system (Rev. 17,18). The true church, is nowhere mentioned on earth in the tribulation.

46. The 7 promises to the true church to be removed before the tribulation.

47. The church is the object of Christ’s love, not the object of Christ’s wrath (Ephesians 5:25). Question 51: Why would a bridegroom want to punish his new bride? Would you do this?
 

You are wasting your breath Kiwi I have been posting Scripture that supports the pre trib rapture of the Church for years and it really is not embraced. But time will tell. I believe we are living in the very last end times and the rapture of the Church is imminent. Possibly soon.

[OldCoot]

6 hours ago, TheBride123 said:

Again, people pick and choose of scripture to fit their own argument . Luke 21, should be read in it's fullness- anyone can take a verse and convert it to what they want it to mean. Luke 21:29 states that this generation shall not pass away until all these things - He fore mentioned in the beginning of the Luke 21: dialogue -comes to pass. The verse you placed speaks to the need to remain alert for we know not when the Lord will return. Complacency is a no-no. Only God is good. As for the Lord beating up His Bride- that is a bunch of bunk. The wicked beat up the bride. Why are you surprised? No student is above their teacher, if they have persecuted the householder, how much more the house. What they do to the Bride they did to Christ first- John 15 speaks to this very fact.  Christianity is not for the faint at heart. In love there is no fear. We must be perfected in love. 1 John4:18 "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love." And this chapter should too be read in its entirety. God Bless

 

While indeed we face and suffer tribulation and trials now, that is substantially different than what the 70th week of Daniel / Time of Jacob's Trouble / Great Tribulation is all about.  You are indeed correct when you quote that no student is above his master.  And that does indeed apply to us.  And it is equally true what you say that present tribulations and trials are directed by evil.  

The judgements that come upon the earth from the 1st seal on, all happen because of God.  And evil is allowed to flourish, but it is only at the discretion of God Himself to fulfill His purpose... to drive Israel to the wall and recognize their Messiah (Hosea 5:15) and to seal up the fate of everyone else.  They effectively kill off 5/6ths of the worlds population before they are done.  And not a single one of them, either by evil or by nature, could happen had it not been allowed by God.   And therefore it begs the question as to why God would impose these things on his people he has declared righteous?  None of these things occur unless seals are open, trumpets are blown, and bowls poured out.  Therefore, they are all at the direction of God Himself.

The prophetical portions of Luke were done in two locations, the temple area and the mt. of olives (Luke 21:37). And likewise, they discuss two different things.  The destruction to come upon Jerusalem in 70 AD and the events that lead up to the return of Messiah.  V24 closes this description by saying that Jerusalem will be trampled down under the gentiles until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled.  From v25 on is discussing end times signs and It is in this latter context that Luke 21:32 says that this generation (basic grammatical structure implies the generation that sees these end signs) will not pass till all be fulfilled.  And it is also the context in which Luke 21:36 is located regarding escaping these things.  Basic grammatical structure of the text thereby implies that those worthy will escape those things that will be coming upon the earth during this end time scenario. This matches with Isaiah 26:19-21 and Zephaniah 2:1-3.

Edited September 14, 2017 by OldCoot

[KiwiChristian]

11 hours ago, missmuffet said:

You are wasting your breath Kiwi I have been posting Scripture that supports the pre trib rapture of the Church for years and it really is not embraced. But time will tell. I believe we are living in the very last end times and the rapture of the Church is imminent. Possibly soon.

I get what you are saying. People are so blinded at times.

Oh well, they wont be able to say no-one told them.

 

Thank you for your reply. Good to get one that is NOT attacking or harassing me.

[hmbld]

4 hours ago, KiwiChristian said:

I get what you are saying. People are so blinded at times.

Oh well, they wont be able to say no-one told them.

 

Thank you for your reply. Good to get one that is NOT attacking or harassing me.

Many people show scripture that supports, but does not prove pre-trib. Saying people are blinded to your superior knowledge is not loving, nor does it strengthen your position. 

[OldCoot]

37 minutes ago, hmbld said:

Many people show scripture that supports, but does not prove pre-trib. Saying people are blinded to your superior knowledge is not loving, nor does it strengthen your position. 

Prove is a relative term.  It all depends on the standard. Most things biblical, they may not be provable by scientific standards, but they are provable by legal standards.  For example, no one can "prove" who Yeshua was or what He did while here from a literal standpoint, but from a legal standpoint, we have numerous eye witnesses that provide more than ample confirmation of Yeshua.  And that the stories do not match up precisely word for word makes them even more credible.  

The only "proof" of a future event will be the event happening.  Until then, every position on these matters is theory with supportive textual evidence.  And none of them are free from individual bias, even unintentional bias.

Edited September 15, 2017 by OldCoot

[Last Daze]

22 hours ago, Amazing Horse said:

If Church goes through tribulation then they are not saved by grace through faith alone as stated in Ephesians 2:8-9 but by works by keeping commandments and having testimony of Jesus Christ while having thier head chopped off .

• Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you.  John 15:20a