Jump to content
IGNORED

Pre-Tribulation Proofs


KiwiChristian

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Members *
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  176
  • Topics Per Day:  0.07
  • Content Count:  870
  • Content Per Day:  0.35
  • Reputation:   330
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/23/2017
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  01/22/1968

Proofs of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture (Errors of Post-Tribulation Rapture)


1. Revelation 19:11-21 does not mention a resurrection at the time of the glorious return of Christ.

2. Zechariah 14:1-5 does not mention a resurrection at the time of Christ’s glorious return. Why?

3. Not one Old Testament or NT passage which discusses the tribulation mentions the church.

4. The unknown day of the rapture, and the known day of the glorious appearing, cannot be the same day. Matthew 25:13.

5. ‘A door was opened in heaven’ (Rev. 4:1) to let John into heaven, is before the tribulation (Rev. 6).

6. ‘Come up hither’ (Rev 4:1). A voice called John to ‘come up hither’. Immediately he was in heaven.

7. The church is not on earth from Revelation 4-18, because of these observations:

i) The church on earth is mentioned 22 times in Revelation 1-3, but not once on earth from Rev. 5-19.
ii) The church is in heaven with resurrected bodies from Revelation 4-19 as seen by 9 statements.

8. The Rapture of the 24 elders of the church age (Revelation 4:1-11) occurs before the antichrist is revealed as the white horse rider at the beginning of the 7 years tribulation in Revelation 6:1,2.

The 24 Elders represent Old Testament and church age Christians raptured before the tribulation (Rev 5:9)

9. The 24 elders have their crowns of gold (Revelation 4:4).

10. The armies in heaven that follow Jesus Christ at His glorious appearing are church age Christians (Rev 19:14). They are not angels because Rev 19:8 reveals that the fine linen they are wearing is the righteousness of the saints (Revelation 19:8).

11. We are waiting for and looking for Jesus Christ to come and take us to heaven at the rapture. 12. ‘Wherefore comfort one another with these words’ (I Thessalonians 4:18).

13. ‘I also will keep thee out of (Greek: Τηρησω εк) the hour of temptation (the tribulation) which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth’ (Revelation 3:10).

14. Jesus returns from a Wedding to the church in heaven after the 7 years Tribulation. Luke 12:36.

15. The Restrainer (the church) will be taken out of the way before the antichrist is revealed at the start of the 7 year tribulation. (II Thessalonians 2:6-8).

16. At the rapture, Jesus receives us to Himself in heaven. We do not receive Him on earth (John 14:3)

17. The gathering of the tribulation elect after the 7 years tribulation is done by angels, but the gathering of the church is done by Jesus Christ Himself. (Matthew 24:31).

18. The righteous and wicked both can’t be taken first. Matthew 13:30,49.

19. Question 20: If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? (Matthew 25:31-46).

20. Question 21: Who will populate the millennium?

If a post-tribulation rapture occurs at the glorious appearing and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Nobody will be left with mortal, reproducing bodies. 21. Question 22: The judgment of Israel is discussed in Ezekiel 20:38, ‘I will purge out from among you the rebels.’ If all the saved (including saved Jews) had previously been separated a few days earlier by the rapture, there would be no need to separate saved Jews and lost Jews after Jesus Christ’s coming.

22. 14 Contrasts between the Rapture and the Glorious Appearing prove they are different events.

23. The Tribulation is called the time of Jacob’s trouble not the church’s trouble (Jeremiah 30:7). Question 25: How can the tribulation be called Jacob’s trouble for Israel and a blessed hope for the church, if both groups must go through it?

24. The focus of the Tribulation in the book of Revelation 7-18 on earth is on Israel, not the church:

25. The holy apostles and prophets who rejoice over Babylon’s destruction are in heaven. Rev 18:20

26. ‘The day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night’ (I Thessalonians 5:2).

27. ‘They’, ‘them’ and ‘they’ refer to unbelievers left behind after the rapture in I Thessalonians 5:3.

28. The church will not be ‘overtaken by the day of the Lord’ (I Thessalonians 5:4).

29. ‘For God hath not appointed us to wrath (of the tribulation), but to obtain salvation (deliverance from the tribulation) by our Lord Jesus Christ.’ (I Thessalonians 5:9).

‘Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath (tribulation) to come.’ (I Thessalonians 1:10). 1500

30. It is the character of God to deliver His own people from the greatest times of trials.

31. The ‘falling away’ (646) in II Thessalonians 2:3 is ‘the departure’ of the church and of the Holy Spirit’s influence in the church, before the antichrist is revealed. ‘Falling away’ (646) in Greek is ‘η apostasia’ a noun meaning something separative, a departure such as divorce (647), apostasy.

32. Only the pre-tribulation rapture position does not confuse the church and Israel, the church and the elect in different ages, tribulations and the tribulation period, and the trumpet of God and the trumpets of angels.

33. There is a time interval between Christ coming for his saints at the rapture of the church (Rev 4:1) and Christ coming with His saints at the glorious return of Christ (Rev. 19:11-21; Zechariah 14:1-5). If the rapture and glorious appearing occurred simultaneously, there would be no time for the Judgment Seat of Christ (II Cor. 5:10), the presenting of the church to Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:27), and the marriage of Christ to the church to take place. This time interval is stated in John 14:3. 34. Some people will escape the tribulation period. (Luke 21:34-36).

35. The church is not in Daniel’s 69 weeks period (Daniel 9:24-27), so it should not be in the70th week.

36. The structure of the book of Revelation proves the pre-tribulation rapture of the church.

37. At the rapture, believers go straight to the Father’s house (John 14:3), not straight back to earth as post-tribulationists think. ‘I will receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.’

38. The two purposes of Daniel’s 70th week are to test earth dwellers (Revelation 3:10) and to prepare Israel for the King (Malachi 4:5,6). These have no relation to the church whatsoever.

39. If the church enters the tribulation of God’s wrath, judgment and punishment, then because of her union with Christ, Christ would be subject to the same wrath, judgment and punishment of God.

40. The Silence in the New Testament Epistles on how to endure the tribulation.

41. The Relation of the church to earthly governments.

42. The Destiny of the church is to heaven (John 14:2,3). The destiny of the saved in the tribulation is not to heaven, but to the earth in the millennium.

‘Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom.’ (Matthew 25:34).

43. The doctrine of imminence (at any moment coming) forbids the church entering the tribulation.

44. The 144,000 Israelite preachers in the tribulation are not part of the church. (Revelation 7:14).

45. The only organized church in the tribulation is the apostate Jezebel system (Revelation 2:22) and the harlot system (Rev. 17,18). The true church, is nowhere mentioned on earth in the tribulation.

46. The 7 promises to the true church to be removed before the tribulation.

47. The church is the object of Christ’s love, not the object of Christ’s wrath (Ephesians 5:25). Question 51: Why would a bridegroom want to punish his new bride? Would you do this?
 

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  29
  • Topic Count:  593
  • Topics Per Day:  0.08
  • Content Count:  55,868
  • Content Per Day:  7.55
  • Reputation:   27,618
  • Days Won:  271
  • Joined:  12/29/2003
  • Status:  Offline

I think Revelation chapter 13 would keep most all of us from the wrath of God.    And kind of answer where all the souls under the throne spoken of in those white robes came from.

  • Brilliant! 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  84
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  3,986
  • Content Per Day:  1.13
  • Reputation:   2,517
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  07/17/2014
  • Status:  Offline

I've come to the conclusion concerning eschatology that people can, and do, believe whatever seems good to them for a number of reasons.  It matters little and has no effect on what will actually transpire.  We are never told to figure it all out and compel others to agree with us, as if that would somehow validate what we think.

What matters is that we seek first His kingdom and righteousness, that we stand resolutely against the things of this world by walking in the truth.  Relaxing leads to sleeping, and we're cautioned against that.

  • This is Worthy 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/4/2017 at 10:56 PM, KiwiChristian said:

Proofs of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture (Errors of Post-Tribulation Rapture)

Wow!  The sheer volume of information is enough to prevent most people from responding.  I used to believe pretribulation rapture and even taught it.  I started seeing "proofs" that people use to convince others, very much like yours, and found way too many contradictions in the whole doctrine.

Some of your "proofs" have no Biblical reference- it's because there is nothing In the Bible to support it.  Those statements are not proof, they are merely assumed conclusions of misinterpreted verses based on a preconceived belief.

Most of the verses you've quoted are taken out of context...many to the point that you could actually assign any meaning to them.  Of those I have studied the context and found that many of them are not even about the rapture.  Some of them, if you honestly look at the context say exactly opposite of the out-of-context snippets.

Regarding  a few of those, I have found significant errors in translation.  (Intentional or not). Some words have literally been redefined by "scholars" to fit their beliefs and to reconcile the contradictions they created with poor interpretation.

A couple of your early statements claimed "proof" because the the Old Testament and Revelation don't mention the resurrection...  by that logic the rapture is not mentioned during the first resurrection in Rev20... does that mean it won't happen?

you have a lot of word manipulation in you list... too many to mention...

but I will point out that in #13 on your list, you translate based on your belief by not translating every word....

you wrote, "I will keep thee out of the hour of temptation...".  Out is one way to translate ek, but John used this word elsewhere in Revelation and it translates "because of."  To be consistent with John's use of that word, it makes more sense to maintain that...  

i know what you're thinking... "that wouldn't make sense to say "I will keep you because of...". That is because no pretrib rapture teacher will ever honestly translate the Greek word that precedes it- "keep"

the root word for that in Greek means to be a spectator... the form of that word that John used literally means "to watch over" or "to guard."

now if you really love the Word of God and not just doctrine, you will see that this verse actually promises, "I will guard you because of the hour of temptation...". 

I am surprised that you didn't include Jesus' comparison to the days of Noah... you know, the infamous (and out-of-context) "left behind"verse.  I find it sad that no one dare read how Jesus indentified who was "taken."  Read carefully, the taken were taken by the flood- God's wrath, not by any type of rapture.  In Genesis 6, it specifies who was "left."  It says that only Noah and his family were "left."  

That passage coincides with Rev 3: 10 because both offer the promise of protection from the wrath of God.  Yes, it does actually show that we will witness the wrath of God, just like Noah, but remain safe from falling under that wrath.

i understand you've been taught pretrib by well-meaning teachers, but honestly, most of the pretrib doctrine is based on speculation, not "proof."

none of the "proof verses" that I've spent years researching and analyzing give any credence to the doctrine.  

Shalom 

Edited by Guest
Additional clarity
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  13
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  1,192
  • Content Per Day:  0.48
  • Reputation:   429
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/29/2017
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  01/12/1957

On 9/6/2017 at 1:47 AM, GusWilby said:

Wow!  The sheer volume of information is enough to prevent most people from responding.  I used to believe pretribulation rapture and even taught it.  I started seeing "proofs" that people use to convince others, very much like yours, and found way too many contradictions in the whole doctrine.

That is the intent by some posters elsewhere. It is a classic military strategy... overwhelm the opposition all at one time to break down any opposition. One has so many arguments to address that they cannot make an effective counter argument.  That leads to other massively lengthy counter posts and drives many to just move on to other topics.  Nothing gets resolved.

I still hold to a pre-trib position, but generally don't waste much time in trying to defend it. As you see too many contradictions to the position, I see too many contradictions to the others.  We each see different aspects and nuances in scripture and bring a difference perspective.  More than likely, the truth is not what any of us really expect.  

But I have changed some of my previous positions.  I used to hold to the immanency of the rapture position, that it could happen at any time,  but changed some time ago to a Feast day occurrence, specifically that of Yom Teruah / Feast of Trumpets.  And yes, that was long before the Revelation 12 sign discussions that are going on currently. Probably about 30 years ago I started moving into a Feast event type of idea.

Either way, what disappoints me is the vitriol and arrogance that gets spooned up by some in arguing these positions.  None of us has an exclusive and is the mouthpiece of God.  I am more than confident that all of us will have egg on our face in the final analysis, like Job, with all being wrong to one degree or another.   I don't see it here, yet, but many times these discussion degrade to people calling each other heretical, unscriptural, and whatever terms designed to shut down fruitful discussion.  Like in the current political climate where charges of Racism or Homophobia are used to shut down contrary views.  

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Members *
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  176
  • Topics Per Day:  0.07
  • Content Count:  870
  • Content Per Day:  0.35
  • Reputation:   330
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/23/2017
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  01/22/1968

On 9/10/2017 at 1:54 AM, OldCoot said:

That is the intent by some posters elsewhere. It is a classic military strategy... overwhelm the opposition all at one time to break down any opposition. One has so many arguments to address that they cannot make an effective counter argument.  That leads to other massively lengthy counter posts and drives many to just move on to other topics.  Nothing gets resolved.

I still hold to a pre-trib position, but generally don't waste much time in trying to defend it. As you see too many contradictions to the position, I see too many contradictions to the others.  We each see different aspects and nuances in scripture and bring a difference perspective.  More than likely, the truth is not what any of us really expect.  

But I have changed some of my previous positions.  I used to hold to the immanency of the rapture position, that it could happen at any time,  but changed some time ago to a Feast day occurrence, specifically that of Yom Teruah / Feast of Trumpets.  And yes, that was long before the Revelation 12 sign discussions that are going on currently. Probably about 30 years ago I started moving into a Feast event type of idea.

Either way, what disappoints me is the vitriol and arrogance that gets spooned up by some in arguing these positions.  None of us has an exclusive and is the mouthpiece of God.  I am more than confident that all of us will have egg on our face in the final analysis, like Job, with all being wrong to one degree or another.   I don't see it here, yet, but many times these discussion degrade to people calling each other heretical, unscriptural, and whatever terms designed to shut down fruitful discussion.  Like in the current political climate where charges of Racism or Homophobia are used to shut down contrary views.  

So you hate in-depth studies of any subject? Sad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Members *
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  176
  • Topics Per Day:  0.07
  • Content Count:  870
  • Content Per Day:  0.35
  • Reputation:   330
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/23/2017
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  01/22/1968

On 9/6/2017 at 6:47 PM, GusWilby said:

Wow!  The sheer volume of information is enough to prevent most people from responding.  I used to believe pretribulation rapture and even taught it.  I started seeing "proofs" that people use to convince others, very much like yours, and found way too many contradictions in the whole doctrine.

Some of your "proofs" have no Biblical reference- it's because there is nothing In the Bible to support it.  Those statements are not proof, they are merely assumed conclusions of misinterpreted verses based on a preconceived belief.

Most of the verses you've quoted are taken out of context...many to the point that you could actually assign any meaning to them.  Of those I have studied the context and found that many of them are not even about the rapture.  Some of them, if you honestly look at the context say exactly opposite of the out-of-context snippets.

Regarding  a few of those, I have found significant errors in translation.  (Intentional or not). Some words have literally been redefined by "scholars" to fit their beliefs and to reconcile the contradictions they created with poor interpretation.

A couple of your early statements claimed "proof" because the the Old Testament and Revelation don't mention the resurrection...  by that logic the rapture is not mentioned during the first resurrection in Rev20... does that mean it won't happen?

you have a lot of word manipulation in you list... too many to mention...

but I will point out that in #13 on your list, you translate based on your belief by not translating every word....

you wrote, "I will keep thee out of the hour of temptation...".  Out is one way to translate ek, but John used this word elsewhere in Revelation and it translates "because of."  To be consistent with John's use of that word, it makes more sense to maintain that...  

i know what you're thinking... "that wouldn't make sense to say "I will keep you because of...". That is because no pretrib rapture teacher will ever honestly translate the Greek word that precedes it- "keep"

the root word for that in Greek means to be a spectator... the form of that word that John used literally means "to watch over" or "to guard."

now if you really love the Word of God and not just doctrine, you will see that this verse actually promises, "I will guard you because of the hour of temptation...". 

I am surprised that you didn't include Jesus' comparison to the days of Noah... you know, the infamous (and out-of-context) "left behind"verse.  I find it sad that no one dare read how Jesus indentified who was "taken."  Read carefully, the taken were taken by the flood- God's wrath, not by any type of rapture.  In Genesis 6, it specifies who was "left."  It says that only Noah and his family were "left."  

That passage coincides with Rev 3: 10 because both offer the promise of protection from the wrath of God.  Yes, it does actually show that we will witness the wrath of God, just like Noah, but remain safe from falling under that wrath.

i understand you've been taught pretrib by well-meaning teachers, but honestly, most of the pretrib doctrine is based on speculation, not "proof."

none of the "proof verses" that I've spent years researching and analyzing give any credence to the doctrine.  

Shalom 

Thats fine. You can chose to accept or reject. To believe or not believe.

 

Nope, i have been taught pre-trib from the Bible

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  48
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  2,491
  • Content Per Day:  0.55
  • Reputation:   1,457
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  10/23/2011
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  02/02/1971

On 9/5/2017 at 0:55 PM, Last Daze said:

I've come to the conclusion concerning eschatology that people can, and do, believe whatever seems good to them for a number of reasons.  It matters little and has no effect on what will actually transpire.  We are never told to figure it all out and compel others to agree with us, as if that would somehow validate what we think.

What matters is that we seek first His kingdom and righteousness, that we stand resolutely against the things of this world by walking in the truth.  Relaxing leads to sleeping, and we're cautioned against that.

Nice!  I've come to the conclusion that anyone who says they know and can prove pre/mid/post are wrong. Those who say they are not sure but have an opinion are closer to the truth. Maybe we are not to know how God makes all scripture references that are debated fit together until later. 

  • This is Worthy 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  14
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  364
  • Content Per Day:  0.15
  • Reputation:   80
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  09/02/2017
  • Status:  Offline

People in New Testament have the same problem as people in Old Testament .

There is nowhere written in Old Testament that Jesus had to come two times ! O________________o !

Thats why Jews were thinking that after Jesus come , he will make Kingdom of God  , and that's why they were upset when Jesus said that he is going to leave , they knew that he has to rule on throne of David as promise given by God to Mary  through archangel  Gabriel .

 

The only thing that we can conclude from Old Testament about two comming of Christ is that it could not fit into one comming.

From one hand you have  Daniel 2:44 and Isaiah 53:9

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

 

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

 

And from other hand you have : Daniel 9:26 and Isaiah 53:8

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

 

WHAT

How can Messiah be both forever and be cut off ? How can in Isa 8 be cut off but in Isa 9 prolong ?

That's why we know there had to be two comming of Christ , first to be crucified and cut off , then second comming to be ruling over them all  on throne of David .

 

Same goes for rapture . We know that it's separated event because you can't fit all together and verses otherway would contradict themselfes. This is very simple .

Matthew 24

37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

Or the same of day of Lot , did Lot have 7 year tribulatin while angels were destroying Sodom and Gommorah or did he leave before that ?

Luke 17

28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

 

BUT

We know that nobody is able to buy and sell without mark of beast  during tribulation , and there is famine and wars and half of world die , there is no time for mariage , for shopping and for building and for prosperity when everything around you is dying .

 

Moreover

Hebrews 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

1 Thessalonians 5

2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 

BUT

Revelation 1:7

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

Let's not forget about Matthew 24:33

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

BUT

Matthew 24:44 contradicting it

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

How can you both know that he is at the door and that you don't think that he is comming ?

 

HOW can both only these who love him see him , and everybody see him . How can he come in time of peace and also in time of wars and in time of Armageddon.

One comming just does not find .

If you still reject rapture after all that , please give me your crown because i'm collecting rapture crowns .

 

2 Timothy 4:8

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Revelation 3:11

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

 

So if you don't want then i would appricate if you let me have your rapture crown , i would gladly give it back to Jesus after Judgement Seat Christ  .

 

Matthew 25

26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

 

Edited by Amazing Horse
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  13
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  1,192
  • Content Per Day:  0.48
  • Reputation:   429
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/29/2017
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  01/12/1957

1 hour ago, KiwiChristian said:

So you hate in-depth studies of any subject? Sad.

I can deal with in depth studies in the right setting.  But piling on half the NT along with commentaries and turning a post on a forum thread into a college dissertation, that I have a problem with.  There is no way for one to effectively debate the issue since it heads in a myriad of directions with each needing addressed without getting into the same rut.  Not sure why folks can't start off a discussion in the forum thread with just a few points and then develop that further as the thread debate progresses.  It would draw in more people and be easier for those who want to learn an follow the topic do so.

GusWilby was right about the shear volume.

  • Thumbs Up 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...