Pre-Tribulation Proofs

[OldCoot]

5 hours ago, Keras said:

Some of us will see.... that seems to mean; will experience a pre trib rapture, as you believe. 

others won't ..... those who don't see it in the Bible, because it isn't there. 

But not based on eschatology..... The end times are not Biblical?

but their relationship with the Lord..... There are faithful Christians and all the rest of the world. 

That's how I read it, Old Coot.   More scripture and less opinion, please. 

Ok... last time. I will break this down since you seem to have a horrible time with the English language.

Some of us will see a pre-trib removal.    Plain, simple, to the point.  If the concept is true, some will see it some won't.  Not everyone in the world is saved.  There are even some who go to church each week and appear to be solid Christians who are not saved.   It is a relationship, not a religion.  But for those who disagree with a pre-trib position,  I like to jokingly say that those of us who do will gladly explain it on the way up to those who don't!  Emphasis being in that little quip is all of those who trust and believe in the Lord will be going up!   I might have used that here except quality humor is not something that many here seem capable of grasping.

Others won't.     Plain simple  to the point.  No hidden meaning or agenda.  There are those in the world who are not saved.  They won't experience a pre-trib removal if it occurs.  They won't experience a mid, post, pre-wrath, or any other position either for that matter. They are not saved.

But that will not be based on their eschatology.  Here is the emphasis!!  Grasp it  and take hold of it!   Eyes wide open and minds clear.  Grab a cup of coffee and get woke up if one needs to...   Ok... here we go boys and girls......

Eschatology will have nothing to do with it.  If a person is saved, no matter which eschatological position they hold, they will be part of the pre-trib rapture if it is a true concept. If they are saved, they will be part of one of the many positions that end up being true.

but rather on their relationship with the Lord.    Plain  and simple.  Views on eschatology will have nothing to do with it.  If a person knows and trusts the Lord they will be a part of a pre-trib removal of the righteous if it does occur, or again,  any eschatological position that happens to be true.

It is truly  sad that so many have a feeble grasp on basic reading comprehension and grammar that it leads to a silly, time wasting dispute.  But it did do something I wasn't intending.... it brought out the character of who some people are.  It was a revealing light turned on.  

Instead of asking what I meant if you weren't sure, you instead twisted what I said into a club to beat me up with.   You are so blinded by your quest to prove you are right, you are so convinced that everyone is wrong and your goal is to trash them at any point you can.  Your selfish pride has overtaken your reason.  This is why you did what you did and your pride will not allow you to admit you were wrong.  

I, sadly, suspected you wouldn't be able to admit you are wrong in what you  did.  That seems to be the general condition of many in the Body these days.  Try to deflect what you did instead of facing it.   Because of that, anything you now have to say about this, or any other matter in Christianity, has no merit.  You will not admit your sin, so you have distanced yourself from the Lord and anything you could say at this point cannot be trusted as truth.  There is no Holy Spirit guiding one who is willfully remaining in sin.  

[Adstar]

21 hours ago, Last Daze said:

That passage addresses those who persist in utilizing the mark and worshiping the image.  It's not a reference to a one-time event that occurred sometime in the past.  Otherwise the verbs would be past tense, i.e. "received" and "worshiped", and they aren't.  Check the original language is you disagree.

No,, The passage says what it says and they will all persist in it:

Revelation 14: KJV

9 "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, {10} The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: {11} And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

I never said it was an event that happened in the past .. It is still a future event.. And the reason why they will persist in this sin is because they will have rejected the love of the truth of the gospel that would have saved them and because of this God will send them strong delusion so that they will believe the lie of satan,, They will be as Pharaoh was in the time of Moses..

Read the following scripture and understand what will be going on with these people..

2 Thessalonians 2: KJV

8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, {10} And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. {11} And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: {12} That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Edited May 1, 2018 by Adstar

[OldCoot]

5 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

One thing that we can take away from all this. It does not matter a hill-of-beans what I think.

Yahweh is God and in His Heaven and He will do what pleases Him!!!

Well, your opinion is as good and any other.  But you are on point...  it really doesn't matter what any of us think about it... God is sovereign and has it already laid to according to His will.  

[Steve Conley]

22 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

^ This is how I interpret scripture, the blessed hope. Yes, I'm an escapist too. Christian's are appointed to tribulation, but not The Tribulation. It makes no sense for the bride-groom to severely beat up His bride before the wedding. The traditional Jewish wedding process appears to exactly mirror the "Rapture" process. Everything from the bride-groom leaving to prepare a place for his bride at his fathers house, to his unexpected return to get his bride, and everything in between. 

I think if a person studies the traditional Jewish wedding, it's a mirror image of the process of the Rapture and wedding supper. 

As you mentioned, if the bride is getting severely beat up, it makes no sense and fly's in the face of logic that the bride should comfort herself with these words. The preponderance of scripture is overwhelmingly in favor of a pre tribulation Rapture indeed, including types, shadows, references and obvious omissions of the church. The Lord's tribulation 'wrath' is not against His bride, we are not appointed unto wrath, but against those earth dwellers whom have rejected Him, and to bring His chosen people Israel back to repentance, for them to realize the One whom they pierced and have been partially blinded to that fact. 

I ask myself this; when has the Lord not removed or protected His faithful servants before His judgment and wrath? That is the "blessed hope". 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Dennis1209, millions of Christians (who are part of the bride) have been persecuted unto death over the last century. Do you think our brethren being slaughtered, is the groom beating up His bride? I hope not. If you do, either you are a hyper Calvinist who places God behind all that happens to the believer, or you think that the intensification of the persecution in the great tribulation is a part of God's wrath upon the day of the Lord. If you believe either you are in error. We are not appointed unto wrath. We are removed from the earth before God's wrath is poured out upon the day of the Lord.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
...
1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Notice the divine conjunction, "But", contrasts the fate of the Beast worshipers with that of the Church. "They" are caught unawares (like a theif in the night catches the homeowner unsuspecting) by Christ's return. However, we are not unsuspecting because we are watching for those signs Jesus told His disciples would portend His coming. We are raptured to be with Him in Heaven while He pours out His wrath upon the earth dwellers. They face sudden destruction but we are saved from it.

Paul presents the fact that we are to be removed from the earth, where we have been persecuted, before His wrath is poured out upon our persecutors.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Notice, that vs 6 said that God would recompense tribulation to them who troubled the church, them who persecuted the Church. Notice also, Paul said that the church would rest (not be under persecution) at that time when God tribulates our persecutors. He says, that will take place at His glorious appearance when He arrives with His angels to take vengeance upon our persecutors.

Jesus said His wrath would fall the same day that we are taken to safety.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Joel prophesied of the indicator (cosmic sign) of Christ's arrival to rescue His own and pour out His wrath upon their persecutors.

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Jesus said that the cosmic sign immediately follows the great tribulation (unprecedented persecution of the Church and Israel).

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

John saw the cosmic sign at the opening of the sixth seal where it will portend the arrival of Christ at His coming, beginning the day of the Lord.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The great tribulation and the day of the Lord are two different events or periods of time in which fierce wrath is expressed here upon the earth. The first is Satan's wrath against those who are precious to God, the church and Israel (Rev 12:12). The second is God's wrath against those who worshiped the Beast and thereby did worship the Dragon (Satan) and persecuted the church and Israel. These are separated by the cosmic sign and Christ's arrival to gather His own unto Himself.

Yes, Yes, Yes, the Lord will remove His faithful servants before His wrath is poured out.

The blessed hope is not deliverance from persecution, nor is it being caught up (raptured), it is Jesus and has always been Jesus. Every believer, those who sleep in Christ and those who survive until the coming of the Lord, will see Jesus in all His glory at His appearing. all will experience the blessed hope. When He descends from Heaven into the clouds He will resurrect those who sleep and change those who survived, so that we together, shall see Him and be gathered unto Him in the clouds.

There will be no pre-seventieth week rapture. That is what pre-trib means. It means before the seventieth week begins. It is a lie from the father of lies, just like all other falsehoods. I am not saying that those who teach it are purposely being deceptive. They are misunderstanding a few important truths about the week and it is causing their eschatological model to be askew. Satan takes great joy in that because escapist preaching leaves the saints unprepared for the most severe persecution that has ever been faced and many will be offended and fall away. I have written these things in love for those who are Christ's.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

Satan takes great joy in that because escapist preaching leaves the saints unprepared for the most severe persecution that has ever been faced and many will be offended and fall away.

This is only true if one uses "escapist preaching" as an excuse to become spiritually lax.  There are many pretribbers who will be prepared because they lived their lives worshiping God in spirit and truth.  Being prepared is a matter of lifestyle worship, not eschatology.  A person could understand all mystery and prophecy and still be unprepared. 

[Daniel 11:36]

"Satan takes great joy in that because escapist preaching leaves the saints unprepared for the most severe persecution that has ever been faced and many will be offended and fall away"

 

Where did you get this idea?

[Last Daze]

6 hours ago, Adstar said:

No,, The passage says what it says and they will all persist in it:

Revelation 14: KJV

9 "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, {10} The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: {11} And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

I never said it was an event that happened in the past .. It is still a future event.. And the reason why they will persist in this sin is because they will have rejected the love of the truth of the gospel that would have saved them and because of this God will send them strong delusion so that they will believe the lie of satan,, They will be as Pharaoh was in the time of Moses..

Do you believe what Jesus taught?

• Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.  Matthew 12:31

If so, why do you insist that idolatry is not forgivable?  If people repent of the mark and image, they will be forgiven of their idolatry.  Jesus said so.

6 hours ago, Adstar said:

Read the following scripture and understand what will be going on with these people..

2 Thessalonians 2: KJV

8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, {10} And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. {11} And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: {12} That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

I agree that those who have rejected the truth won't repent.  Repentance is for those believers who were deceived into accepting the mark and image.  If you don't think that believers can be deceived just look around.

[OldCoot]

8 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Dennis1209, millions of Christians (who are part of the bride) have been persecuted unto death over the last century. Do you think our brethren being slaughtered, is the groom beating up His bride? I hope not. If you do, either you are a hyper Calvinist who places God behind all that happens to the believer, or you think that the intensification of the persecution in the great tribulation is a part of God's wrath upon the day of the Lord. If you believe either you are in error. We are not appointed unto wrath. We are removed from the earth before God's wrath is poured out upon the day of the Lord.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
...
1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Notice the divine conjunction, "But", contrasts the fate of the Beast worshipers with that of the Church. "They" are caught unawares (like a theif in the night catches the homeowner unsuspecting) by Christ's return. However, we are not unsuspecting because we are watching for those signs Jesus told His disciples would portend His coming. We are raptured to be with Him in Heaven while He pours out His wrath upon the earth dwellers. They face sudden destruction but we are saved from it.

Paul presents the fact that we are to be removed from the earth, where we have been persecuted, before His wrath is poured out upon our persecutors.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Notice, that vs 6 said that God would recompense tribulation to them who troubled the church, them who persecuted the Church. Notice also, Paul said that the church would rest (not be under persecution) at that time when God tribulates our persecutors. He says, that will take place at His glorious appearance when He arrives with His angels to take vengeance upon our persecutors.

Jesus said His wrath would fall the same day that we are taken to safety.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Joel prophesied of the indicator (cosmic sign) of Christ's arrival to rescue His own and pour out His wrath upon their persecutors.

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Jesus said that the cosmic sign immediately follows the great tribulation (unprecedented persecution of the Church and Israel).

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

John saw the cosmic sign at the opening of the sixth seal where it will portend the arrival of Christ at His coming, beginning the day of the Lord.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The great tribulation and the day of the Lord are two different events or periods of time in which fierce wrath is expressed here upon the earth. The first is Satan's wrath against those who are precious to God, the church and Israel (Rev 12:12). The second is God's wrath against those who worshiped the Beast and thereby did worship the Dragon (Satan) and persecuted the church and Israel. These are separated by the cosmic sign and Christ's arrival to gather His own unto Himself.

Yes, Yes, Yes, the Lord will remove His faithful servants before His wrath is poured out.

The blessed hope is not deliverance from persecution, nor is it being caught up (raptured), it is Jesus and has always been Jesus. Every believer, those who sleep in Christ and those who survive until the coming of the Lord, will see Jesus in all His glory at His appearing. all will experience the blessed hope. When He descends from Heaven into the clouds He will resurrect those who sleep and change those who survived, so that we together, shall see Him and be gathered unto Him in the clouds.

There will be no pre-seventieth week rapture. That is what pre-trib means. It means before the seventieth week begins. It is a lie from the father of lies, just like all other falsehoods. I am not saying that those who teach it are purposely being deceptive. They are misunderstanding a few important truths about the week and it is causing their eschatological model to be askew. Satan takes great joy in that because escapist preaching leaves the saints unprepared for the most severe persecution that has ever been faced and many will be offended and fall away. I have written these things in love for those who are Christ's.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

It all sounds good, except you left out 2/3rds of the Bible.  Since all the early believers had was the OT, and they checked up on what the Apostles told them from that, then any eschatological position one gleans from the NT must be supported in total by the OT.  100%.  That fulfills the Torah requirement that any issue has to be confirmed on the testimony of two witness.  I believe those two witness are the NT and OT.  

Now make the case from the OT that there will  be no pre 70th week removal of the righteous. And you better make a very strong case to counter the accusation that such a concept is a lie from the father of lies.  

Now why you would make such a accusation is a wonder.  What is it about a pre-trib position that has your panties in such a wad to take things to that level.  By that accusation, you are implying that anyone who entertains the concept is of Satan himself.  That is pretty stout.  And you are treading on a job position that you are not qualified for.

 

[OldCoot]

Now, this is getting outside scripture, so this is just for curiosity's sake. Many folks seem to become apoplectic about the concept of a pre-trib position.  I can understand passion in supporting what view they do hold, but they can't just live with that.  They have to make accusations about it being from Satan himself and other comments intended to demean others.

So, let's see what Satan has to say about the pre-trib position, since as some claim, he is the author of the idea.

Satan obviously is behind some of the most wild deception that has come about over the centuries.  And it has been ramped up tremendously in these last days.  I don't think we need to dispute that.  So what has Satan propositioned regarding the end times and the righteous as it pertains to pre, mid, or post trib?

There has been a lot of ink used by New Age gurus, authors, channelers, etc to explain away a sudden disappearance of hundreds of thousands to millions of people.  They will use arguments of things like, their vibrations were not in harmony with the earth changes that need to happen.   They will be removed "in the twinkling of an eye" by UFO's.  And a raft of other nonsense.  One thing is apparent in all their goofy stuff though..... they spend an inordinate amount of time explaining away a pre-trib position, but they hardly waste a minute on dismissing any other position.  Wonder why that is.  What is it about the pre-trib position that has Satan's hair falling out and all these new age writers trying to explain away?

Watch for yourself if you think I am just dreaming this up.  Plenty of quotes and documentation.

 

 

[Last Daze]

36 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Satan obviously is behind some of the most wild deception that has come about over the centuries.  And it has been ramped up tremendously in these last days.  I don't think we need to dispute that.  So what has Satan propositioned regarding the end times and the righteous as it pertains to pre, mid, or post trib?

I don't see the double-naught spy routine as a good way to ascertain truth.