Pre-Tribulation Proofs

[OldCoot]

21 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I don't see the double-naught spy routine as a good way to ascertain truth.

Neither do I.  I merely posted it as a curiosity.  I said so in the first sentence.  Did you not read that?  Take it however you want.  You don't buy it, then fine.  I am not losing any sleep over your decision.  You are more than free to dismiss it.  

It was commented that the pre-trib position was a lie of Satan, so I figured we would glean what Satan has to say about such things and see what he thinks about a early removal of the righteous.  If it is lie being foisted on the church by him, he should be going out of his way to support it.  But that is not what seems to be going on.  

That is not saying any position we might hold is absolute truth.  Only scripture can be the measuring line we use for that.  But Satan was very adept at using scripture against Yeshua, and I believe he knows scripture better than any mortal being.  So, there is something is scripture that alludes to a early removal if Satan is putting forth this kind of effort to dismiss the idea.

To follow the assertion in Hamlet with a couple of word changes... Me thinks Satan doth protest too much.

[Steve Conley]

On 5/1/2018 at 4:46 PM, OldCoot said:

It all sounds good, except you left out 2/3rds of the Bible.  Since all the early believers had was the OT, and they checked up on what the Apostles told them from that, then any eschatological position one gleans from the NT must be supported in total by the OT.  100%.  That fulfills the Torah requirement that any issue has to be confirmed on the testimony of two witness.  I believe those two witness are the NT and OT.  

Now make the case from the OT that there will  be no pre 70th week removal of the righteous. And you better make a very strong case to counter the accusation that such a concept is a lie from the father of lies.  

Now why you would make such a accusation is a wonder.  What is it about a pre-trib position that has your panties in such a wad to take things to that level.  By that accusation, you are implying that anyone who entertains the concept is of Satan himself.  That is pretty stout.  And you are treading on a job position that you are not qualified for.

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Elderly aquatic bird or elderly eccentric person, which ever you identify with, there is nothing about what I have said that is inconsistent with OT teaching. In fact it is the explanation of Jesus, Paul, and John concerning what the Prophets foretold of Christ's coming. The day of the Lord is the most spoken of event in all of Scripture. It is to be expected that the New Testament authors would have something to say about the day of the Lord.

Jesus, in answering the questions, "when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming and the end of the world (aion)" lays out the most detailed chronology of the seventieth week that we find in the Scriptures. John perhaps provides more detail to some of the characters and events, but Jesus ties it together like no other NT author.

Also concerning leaving something out, there is only so much that can be dealt with in any given post. Follow me if you care to see the rest.

Jesus told Peter, "get thee behind me Satan", when he told Jesus that He would have glory without suffering. That sounds like the same thing that pre-tribbers preach today. "Oh, don't worry we'll be outta here before the tribulation comes". The lie will be most pernicious for those who, like the stony ground, gladly received the Word, but when persecution came for the Word's sake, they are offended and fall away. These are the many who are happy to be fair-weather Christians, they are near but still outside of Christ. The test will shew the truth of the matter.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Hallelujah

 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Steve Conley

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, OldCoot said:

It was commented that the pre-trib position was a lie of Satan, so I figured we would glean what Satan has to say about such things and see what he thinks about a early removal of the righteous.  If it is lie being foisted on the church by him, he should be going out of his way to support it.  But that is not what seems to be going on.  

"Oh, look!  There are people ready to explain the sudden removal of millions.  That must mean that pretrib is true!"  And you think Satan is telling the truth in that video?  Maybe he is trying to reinforce his own lies by presenting such views as "justification" for them.  Could be serving that purpose instead.  And around and around it goes.

The only way to win that game against Satan is through the Word and Spirit of God.

 

[JoeCanada]

On 4/30/2018 at 8:28 AM, OldCoot said:

.

We should be able to discuss these things like Brothers and Sisters who love the Lord and are part of the same body.  

 

Hi Old Coot....

Well said brother. You nailed it!

So I hold a pre-wrath position. I've studied the pre-trib model, but just couldn't find any scriptural support for it. Like a Berean, I go back and look at the Word and see if what's being preached stands up to it.

Jesus said that in this world we will have tribulation....³³ These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world......John 16:33

²⁰ Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.....John 15:20

What about the apsotles? Were they not persecuted? Indeed! 

What did Jesus reveal about the persecution that Paul would endure?.....¹⁶ For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake......Acts 9:16

³⁷ They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;....Heb 11:37

Now, lets look at Rev 4:1........After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come uphither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Here is where I don't understand the pre-trib position. They say that John represents the Church, and the Church is now called up to heaven, just before the tribulation starts.

But.....it says ..." I will shew THEE....". Now you've got to admit that THEE is singular. Right?.If it was the body of Christ, the Church, why wouldn't they be addressed. ......."I will shew you all".....

But moving along to Rev 7:9..... John says something quite remarkable.....

⁹ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;....

John was startled. "I beheld and lo"...... a great multitude....no man could number........(I was startled....wow...dude...look at them all)

So where was the Church when he was called up in Rev 4?....Were they hiding?...Why were they silent till now?.

They cried with a loud voice....Rev 7:10.... "saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

They were shouting....screaming....praising the Lord God Almighty. Where did they just come from?...again...Why were they silent till now?.

Rev 7:14............"These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

There is a HUGE difference between "tribulation" and "wrath". We will have tribulation (as noted above), but......

God tells us we are not appointed to 'WRATH'......" For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"..... 1 Thes 5:9

Wrath starts after the seals are opened. The 'RAPTURE' takes place as the last seal is opened.......because.......the seals open the scroll which contains all the names of those in the Book of Life. That's another reason I can't believe in a pre-trib rapture. The scroll isn't opened yet.......The scroll also contains the title deed to the earth, and the judgments (trumpets and bowls) which are THE WRATH of the Lamb and of God.

I contend that the silence in heaven as the last seal is opened is when Jesus goes down to meet His bride in the clouds. Why else would heaven be silent? .......Is it because Jesus is no longer there?.....I'm not dogmatic on this, but I do like what it says.

[JoeCanada]

I should also add this...

When the apostles asked Jesus in Mathew 24 what would be the sign of his coming, He answered them with six signs......they are the same as the 6 seals.

 

[Daniel 11:36]

"So where was the Church when he was called up in Rev 4?"

 

On the earth son .... John was called up and into the future to be shown what is to come

Study your Bible

Edited May 2, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[OldCoot]

44 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Old Coot....

Well said brother. You nailed it!

So I hold a pre-wrath position. I've studied the pre-trib model, but just couldn't find any scriptural support for it. Like a Berean, I go back and look at the Word and see if what's being preached stands up to it.

Jesus said that in this world we will have tribulation....³³ These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world......John 16:33

²⁰ Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.....John 15:20

What about the apsotles? Were they not persecuted? Indeed! 

What did Jesus reveal about the persecution that Paul would endure?.....¹⁶ For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake......Acts 9:16

³⁷ They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;....Heb 11:37

Now, lets look at Rev 4:1........After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come uphither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Here is where I don't understand the pre-trib position. They say that John represents the Church, and the Church is now called up to heaven, just before the tribulation starts.

But.....it says ..." I will shew THEE....". Now you've got to admit that THEE is singular. Right?.If it was the body of Christ, the Church, why wouldn't they be addressed. ......."I will shew you all".....

But moving along to Rev 7:9..... John says something quite remarkable.....

⁹ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;....

John was startled. "I beheld and lo"...... a great multitude....no man could number........(I was startled....wow...dude...look at them all)

So where was the Church when he was called up in Rev 4?....Were they hiding?...Why were they silent till now?.

They cried with a loud voice....Rev 7:10.... "saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

They were shouting....screaming....praising the Lord God Almighty. Where did they just come from?...again...Why were they silent till now?.

Rev 7:14............"These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

There is a HUGE difference between "tribulation" and "wrath". We will have tribulation (as noted above), but......

God tells us we are not appointed to 'WRATH'......" For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"..... 1 Thes 5:9

Wrath starts after the seals are opened. The 'RAPTURE' takes place as the last seal is opened.......because.......the seals open the scroll which contains all the names of those in the Book of Life. That's another reason I can't believe in a pre-trib rapture. The scroll isn't opened yet.......The scroll also contains the title deed to the earth, and the judgments (trumpets and bowls) which are THE WRATH of the Lamb and of God.

I contend that the silence in heaven as the last seal is opened is when Jesus goes down to meet His bride in the clouds. Why else would heaven be silent? .......Is it because Jesus is no longer there?.....I'm not dogmatic on this, but I do like what it says.

Many others see it the way you do.  Marv Rosenthal, a dear brother in the Lord, has been one of the primary advocates of the Pre-wrath position for years.

The main leg that idea stands on is defining the wrath of God as beginning later in the 70th week of Daniel.  And on the surface, it would seem so.

I see the wrath as beginning right out of the gate, with the breaking of the first seal.  The seals represent things that are happening on the earth, but these events do not happen until the seals are broken.  And who is it that is breaking the seals?  Yeshua Himself, who is God.  By implication, the events could not happen until Yeshua broke open those seals, therefore, it is by His hand that they happen.  So Yeshua is the one who is behind these events which are the first calamities that come upon the earth.

Let's look at this from a different angle.

When Yeshua was beaten and crucified, who was doing these actual things to Yeshua?  Of course, the pagans (Romans).  But, the scripture clearly says that Yeshua was undergoing the punishing wrath of God for our sins that we deserve.  So was it the Romans or God that killed Yeshua?  Trick question... both!  But it could not happen unless God was behind it all the time and bringing it forth as it was predicted in the scripture to happen.

So, Yeshua is opening the seals starting in Revelation 6.  It is by His hand these things are happening upon the earth.  They cannot start to happen until Yeshua breaks open each seal.   Even though it is weather, geologic, and human caused chaos, it could not happen without Yeshua bringing it forth.   Therefore, the seals are indeed the beginning of the wrath of God.

And that leads to the conundrum we face..... if the seals are indeed part of the wrath of God, then how is it the scripture says we are not appointed to wrath?   And why is the church not even mentioned from chapter 4 onward in Revelation?  Why did Isaiah write the passage where God is telling His people to hide themselves in their rooms because He is coming out of His place to bring wrath upon the earth?  And why did Yeshua, when He was here on earth, mention that He was returning to the Father's house to prepare rooms for us?  And where is the Father's house?  It sure isn't here on earth, at least, not until the new heaven and new earth are created.

Doesn't make either of us right or wrong.  We each see the scripture in our limited, mortal way.   

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

Now, lets look at Rev 4:1........After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come uphither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Here is where I don't understand the pre-trib position. They say that John represents the Church, and the Church is now called up to heaven, just before the tribulation starts.

But.....it says ..." I will shew THEE....". Now you've got to admit that THEE is singular. Right?.If it was the body of Christ, the Church, why wouldn't they be addressed. ......."I will shew you all".....

 

I wanted to separate this one out so we could focus on it better.  You raise a very valid question.

Who is there with John?  Notice in Revelation 4:4, there are 24 elders with white robes and gold crowns.  Now, angels do not get gold crowns.  Those are given to only those who were made righteous by the blood of Yeshua.  And take notice also, crowns are given as rewards.  The Bema seat judgement (2 Corinthians 5:10 the Greek is Bema) where the believer's works are judged (not their salvation) has already happened.  Thus the Ekklesia has already been brought before the Bema seat judgement.  The church is there as a separate entity from John.

Now, why would the singular address be used as you asked?  Good question.  We are all individuals, but we make up the one body of Messiah.  We are all individuals, but we are all the one bride of Messiah.   But that is not really the point.  I have never held that John being there represents the church en masse.  The 24 elders are who the church is.  John is an observer of these events and was told... I will shew thee.  But point of fact.... those 24 elders do have white robes and gold crowns.  Angels do not get gold crowns.  That is an exclusive of believers.  And what is the other purpose of the Gold crowns?  Rewards, yes, but something else..... Read Revelation 2:26-27

Some, I think, confuse John going up for the church.  But the church is right there in front of John.  The church has been mentioned in the 7 letters directed at them by Yeshua Himself  in chapters 2 & 3.  But the church is never mentioned again in all the the Book of the Revelation after chapter 3.  No need to.  The church is no longer on the earth.  Now that doesn't mean that others on the earth will not come to trust in the saving work of the Messiah also and be saved.  Israel has to cry out for the Messiah's return (Hosea 5:15 & Matthew 23:39) so obviously at some point, the majority of Israel comes to faith in Yeshua.  It just means that what we have known as the Ekklesia from the time of Pentacost after Yeshua's resurrection until today, they are not part of that.  But then, neither were the saints of the OT part of the NT Ekklesia.  They looked forward to the Messiah and trusted, but they were not part of the Ekklesia of the NT.    Moses, David, the Prophets..... they were not and are not part the NT Ekklesia, but they are saved by the same atoning work of Yeshua.  The Ekklesia (church) is a unique identity, but not everyone throughout history who are saved by the atonement of Messiah part of the NT Ekklesia.  It all really shouldn't be as difficult as some make it out to be. 

One can be a qualified, certified electrician and still not be a member of the Brotherhood of Electrical Workers.

[n2thelight]

On 4/30/2018 at 9:44 AM, Adstar said:

They will not repent of it.. The Bible says that they shall all be cast into the eternal lake of fire..

 

Revelation 14: KJV

9 "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, {10} The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: {11} And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

This is the purpose of the millennium

Those who take the mark are not automatically damned ,the true test comes after the Millennium.

Must won't even know that they took the mark,as God will send them a strong delusion ,they will actually think that satan is Christ

[n2thelight]

Still can't understand how you all say Christ comes before the tribulation when He clearly states He comes after

Yet you all get around it by saying He wasn't talking to the Church,you all must twist scripture to make this theory fit.