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Pre-Tribulation Proofs


KiwiChristian

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13 hours ago, Last Daze said:
14 hours ago, Adstar said:

In my Bible it says::

Matthew 24: KJV

3 "¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? {4} And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. {5} For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."

Take Heed .. meaning listen to my Words...  If we listen and embrace the Words of Jesus we believe His teachings and trust in His atonement then we have His Holy Spirit guiding and protecting us..  

That's a big difference between two Bibles.. Just a few different words changes the meaning totally..

Question,do you pick and chose what part to listen to,because in that same chapter ,He clearly says He returns AFTER the tribulation

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5 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Noah.  Sealed by God inside the ark 6 days before the destruction came on the 7th.

 

Once Noah's family went into the ark, the door was shut 

Once the five wise virgins went into the temple the door was shut.

Matthew 25:10

But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

Heaven is only mentioned to be open at the 7th trumpet

Rev 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant

It is then shut

Rev 15:8

And the Temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power, and no man was able to enter into the Temple, till the seuen plagues of the seuen Angels were fulfilled.” 

Please show me anywhere of heaven being open and then shut in Revelation to support the pretrib doctrine?

Quote

 Lot.  He and his family had to be removed before the angels could bring destruction on Sodom and Gomorrah.

Gen 19:25 

Genesis 19:25 New International Version (NIV)

25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain , destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land.

God destroyed the entire Jordan plain and all the cities except for one ...the city of Zoar, Lot was not rescued out of the entire Jordan plains destruction....he was protected in the midst of the entire destruction.

Please explain why the pretrib doctrine ignores the full scale of the Jordan plain destruction?

Quote

 

King Joash as a child.  When Athaliah was killing the royal line and is a pretty good picture of the future false messiah, as evil as that wretched woman was.   Joash was hidden in the upper part of the temple for 6 years while all this was going on.  Then he was brought forth in the 7th year.   Athaliah was slain, and Joash was crowned as king

Christ is crowned king on the coronation of Rosh Hashanah

Rev 11:15

The kingdom of the world has become
    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

And the parable of the returning king

Luke 19:15

He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

 

Please explain why the battle of Jericho is not a prophetic pattern of the 7seals and 7 trumpets in Revelation 

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Ok, inchrist, you are confusing temple and heaven.  It is the Temple in Heaven that is opened in Revelation 11:19.  Nowhere does it say or even suggest that the redeemed are residing in the Temple proper in Heaven.  You see the 24 Elders about the throne of God, which is not the Temple of God.

But, if as you assert, heaven is not opened until the 7th trumpet.  Then, how is it the woman who is having the child, who most recognize as the Messiah, comes after the 7th trumpet in the text yet the child is caught up to the throne?  And what of the two witnesses that are resurrected and told to "come up here"?  Where did they go since this happened before the Temple was opened later in the chapter? And even their enemies will see them ascend into Heaven in that chapter.

And we also have a problem.  Where did Enoch end up after he was taken by the Lord in Genesis?  And Elijah, he was caught up on a chariot of fire, so has he only been on perpetual orbit of the earth until the Temple in Heaven is opened as you state? 

And the resurrected saints of Matthew 27.  The text does say they are saints, unlike the resurrections of Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, etc. Where did those resurrected saints go?  The early Church writers all concurred that these saints were taken to the Lord, and since most of those writers had close contact with the Apostles themselves or disciples of the Apostles, they probably are more accurate in this assertion than a 20th or 21st century textual critic.   

The text of Matthew doesn't say so only speculation can be made, but since Yeshua always seemed to be pointing us to the harvest, it is probably wise that we look at the legal prescription regarding the harvest in Leviticus 23.  And of the harvest, a sheaf offering of first fruits of the harvest is required to be brought before the Lord by the High Priest.  Yeshua is the first fruits of those who are resurrected, but NOT the first fruits of the harvest.  He is our high priest.  He told Mary after He was resurrected not to hold Him. He had not yet ascended to the Father in His role as High Priest to deliver the first fruits of the harvest to Him.   Thereafter is the main harvest of the field.  But also the harvest field, part of the crop is not harvested and is left for the gleanings harvest.  There are three distinct harvests of a field.

The other problem still is that group of 24 elders. They have been there since chapter 4 and they have white robes and crowns, the latter being exclusive posession of believers.  Crown of Life, Crown of righteousness, Crown of Glory, etc. per the Epistles, and in Revelation 2 & 3, Yeshua has been mentioning rewards of white robes and crowns in His letters to the Churches.

And just after those letters, we see 24 Elders in heaven wearing white robes and crowns.  Proper scripture exegesis (following the Law of First Mention of hermeneutics) and basic principles of grammar and writing would suggest the 24 Elders are the Church in the previous chapters.   It is never said of Angels that they get crowns of any kind. Angels are messengers.  The 24 Elders sing the song of the Redeemed.  Angels are not redeemed. The Elders are also called Kings and Priests. Only the redeemed believers (outside of Messiah Himself)  are called kings and priests, and not just in Revelation.  The 24 Elders are seen on thrones.  Only the redeemed righteous rule and reign with Messiah.

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20 hours ago, inchrist said:

Where does it state the antichrist comes in Christ name?

If satan wants to deceive people and lead them into eternal destruction.. What people group must he deceive to increase the numbers of people he is leading intoi destruction???

Would he focus on muslims ?  No because muslims are already deceived.

Would he focus on hindus?  No because hindus are already deceived.

So what group would satan be focused on to decieve if he wated to increase the number of people he is leading to the eternal lake of fire?

Answer:: Christians.. If we are Christians we know that satan has already got the rest of humanity damned..

What is one of the central doctrines that Christians believe about Jesus.. That Jesus is the Word of God made flesh.. That Jesus / the Holky Spirit / and the Father are God.. that Jesus is God or as we say Jesus is LORD...  So the anti-christ if he wants to deceive Christians must claim to be Jesus and thus must claim to be God..

2 Thessalonians 2: KJV

3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; {4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

So the Anti-christ is going to claim to Be God, would the anti-christ make such a claim if he was focused on deceiving the muslims? No... He would do it if his focus was trying to deceive the saved Christians.. How else would the anti-christ emulate Jesus.. Jesus came doing signs and miracles so will the anti-christ also do signs and wonders in an attempt to deceive Christians into believing they where seeing the returned Jesus?

 

2 Thessalonians 2: KJV

8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,"

So the anti-christ will claim to be God and will be doing signs and wonders... 

 

He will also demand to be worshiped  just as Jesus was worshiped during His time on earth..

Revelation 13: KJV

15 "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

 

Revelation 14: KJV

9 "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, {10} The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:"

So the conclusion must be that the great deception will be the anti-christ claiming to be the returned Messiah..

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28 minutes ago, Adstar said:

If satan wants to deceive people and lead them into eternal destruction.. What people group must he deceive to increase the numbers of people he is leading intoi destruction???

Would he focus on muslims ?  No because muslims are already deceived.

Would he focus on hindus?  No because hindus are already deceived.

So what group would satan be focused on to decieve if he wated to increase the number of people he is leading to the eternal lake of fire?

Answer:: Christians.. If we are Christians we know that satan has already got the rest of humanity damned..

What is one of the central doctrines that Christians believe about Jesus.. That Jesus is the Word of God made flesh.. That Jesus / the Holky Spirit / and the Father are God.. that Jesus is God or as we say Jesus is LORD...  So the anti-christ if he wants to deceive Christians must claim to be Jesus and thus must claim to be God..

2 Thessalonians 2: KJV

3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; {4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

So the Anti-christ is going to claim to Be God, would the anti-christ make such a claim if he was focused on deceiving the muslims? No... He would do it if his focus was trying to deceive the saved Christians.. How else would the anti-christ emulate Jesus.. Jesus came doing signs and miracles so will the anti-christ also do signs and wonders in an attempt to deceive Christians into believing they where seeing the returned Jesus?

 

2 Thessalonians 2: KJV

8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,"

So the anti-christ will claim to be God and will be doing signs and wonders... 

 

He will also demand to be worshiped  just as Jesus was worshiped during His time on earth..

Revelation 13: KJV

15 "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

 

Revelation 14: KJV

9 "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, {10} The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:"

So the conclusion must be that the great deception will be the anti-christ claiming to be the returned Messiah..

Nope, why would the Antichrist need to come as the chrisrian messiah when it's already in scripture he will deceive in another name and win for the time being.

 He shall regard neither the God[a] of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all. 38 But in their place he shall honor a god of fortresses; and a god which his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things. 39 Thus he shall act against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and divide the land for gain

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31 minutes ago, Adstar said:

If satan wants to deceive people and lead them into eternal destruction.. What people group must he deceive to increase the numbers of people he is leading intoi destruction???

Would he focus on muslims ?  No because muslims are already deceived.

Would he focus on hindus?  No because hindus are already deceived.

So what group would satan be focused on to decieve if he wated to increase the number of people he is leading to the eternal lake of fire?

Answer:: Christians.. If we are Christians we know that satan has already got the rest of humanity damned..

What is one of the central doctrines that Christians believe about Jesus.. That Jesus is the Word of God made flesh.. That Jesus / the Holky Spirit / and the Father are God.. that Jesus is God or as we say Jesus is LORD...  So the anti-christ if he wants to deceive Christians must claim to be Jesus and thus must claim to be God..

How do you reconcile this with your recently-stated view on Matthew 24:24?

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10 hours ago, n2thelight said:

I see your thinking from a point of there will be people being born during this time,however that's not true.

Christ ruling with a rod of iron is for those who didn't overcome,they are known as the dead,because they still can die the 2nd death,if deceived by satan again.

There's no rapture,we do however gather to Christ,and ALL,not just the saved shall be changed,the difference is,those who didn't overcome will still have a mortal soul

 

At the return of Christ,the age of the flesh will be over....

just reading Revelation chapter 20 will show you that there are two reasurections.. One reasurection before the 1000 years and another reasurection after the 1000 years.. The first reasurection only includes Saints the second reasurection happens after the 1000 years. Read the following verses as they are and you cannot deny my observation is true..

Please read it all as it is written,, sorry i know it is a big quote but it is important to see the cronological nature of this Chapter and what it reveals..

Revelation 20:

3 "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. {4} And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. {5} But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. {6} Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

{7} And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, {8} And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. {9} And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. {10} And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

{11} And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. {12} And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. {13} And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. {14} And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. {15} And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

So we have the first rasurection of the Saints happening.. And those who are resurrected where those who did not receive the Mark of the beast neither had they received his mark.. This places this Resurrection After the return of Jesus and the battle of Armageddon the return of Jesus and the battle of Armageddon is described as happening before, in the latter half of Revelation chapter 19..  Note these Saints Live and Reign with Christ a thousand years.. Now who are they reigning over? who are they ruling over? If it is just Christ and the Saints during the 1000 years the Saints will be reigning over no one..  So these resurrected Saints take part in the First Resurrection.. While the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years are finished.. When do the rest of the dead get raised to be judged?? they will be raised to be judged after the end of the 1000 years at the  great white throne   judgement..

So satan is locked up in the bottomless pit for that 1000 years but at the end of the 1000 years he is loosed out of his prison and will be allowed to go out into the nations to deceive them once again, ( God allowing this is a judgement upon the nations )  to gather the people of Gog and Magog this ties in with Ezekiel 38..

Note when Jesus destroys the army of the beast it is with a terrible plague and madness causing the solders in the army of the beast to raise their weapons against each other.. But how is this second army that will come up against the Saints and the Beloved City after the 1000 bedestroyed by God?   """fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them""  they are burnt with fire..   Different battle..

Quote

 

Now concerning those who you think will be born during this time,according to your thinking,they will get to see Christ in all His glory,how is that fair to those who were not born during this time?

It's not,yet we know we have a fair God

 

I refer you back to the verses i posted before::

Zechariah 14: KJV

16 "¶ And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. {17} And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. {18} And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles."

Note that after the return of Jesus , The LORD of Hosts, that these people will still be able to resist his will to come up to Jerusalem to worship Him.. If they where never going to rebel against the will of the LORD then this scripture above would never have to be written.. Yes they have the LORD on earth in Jerusalem during the 1000 years but Still.. they will resist Him and here is the Rod of Iron response i was talking about.. They will get hit with the plague that Jesus subjected the army of the beast too and their lands will be denied rain..

So clearly there is no advantage to these people living in the 1000 years because Jesus is on earth ruling over them with the Saints.. These people still sometimes choose to resist His rule.. They shall not succeed of course ,, but they will try it on..

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4 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

How do you reconcile this with your recently-stated view on Matthew 24:24?

Please point me to what i said about matthew 24:24 ..  I have posted a lot on different forums lately.. If you have a quote please post it and say how it is in conflict with what i have said in your quote ? 

Sorry..

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24 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Nope, why would the Antichrist need to come as the chrisrian messiah when it's already in scripture he will deceive in another name and win for the time being.

 He shall regard neither the God[a] of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all. 38 But in their place he shall honor a god of fortresses; and a god which his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things. 39 Thus he shall act against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and divide the land for gain

Did Jesus Christ have sexual desires for woman ?  Nope .. Jesus never married He remained celibate all his life.. So again this is another thing that the

anti-christ will mimic in his attempt to deceive Christians ..

 

Note what the Bible reveals what he will be really doing. but also it reveals the deceptions he will be projecting upon the people. What the Bible knows about the Anti-christ and what the deceived people of the time will think of the anti-christ will be two very different things.. The Anti-christ followers will probably think they are the Saints ruling over the world when the anti-christ  ""he shall cause them to rule over many""

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1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

Ok, inchrist, you are confusing temple and heaven.  It is the Temple in Heaven that is opened in Revelation 11:19.  

You'll find that Noahs ark and the Tabernacle earthly and heavenly (since the earthly tabernacle was a forshadow of the heavenly), was designed as a temple.

The Arks 3 decks suggest both the 3 divisions of the Tabernacle and the threefold.

Each of the 3 decks of Noahs ark was exactly the same height as the Tabernacle 

The same Hebrew word mikseh  was used for the animal skin covering of the Ark and that of the Tabernacle.

In other words Noahs ark = open and temple shut

Matthew 24 = 5 wise virgins open and temple shut

Rev 11 & Rev 15 = open temple and temple shut.

The pretrib rapture does not correspond with God's patterns.

Nor does it correspond with how God wages war with trumpets.

 But, if as you assert, heaven is not opened until the 7th trumpet.  Then, how is it the woman who is having the child, who most recognize as the Messiah, comes after the 7th trumpet in the text yet the child is caught up to the throne

Is the child corporate church or simply Christ?

The temple is always opened for Christ, how can it not be?

However the context of Noah, Matthew 24 and rev 11 & 15 is for the believers and not Christ.

 And we also have a problem.  Where did Enoch end up after he was taken by the Lord in Genesis?  And Elijah, he was caught up on a chariot of fire, so has he only been on perpetual orbit of the earth until the Temple in Heaven is opened as you state

There are three levels of heaven - sky, cosmos and the 3rd heaven God's abode 

Show us in context which heaven  Enoch and Elijah were taken too?

 And the resurrected saints of Matthew 27.  The text does say they are saints, unlike the resurrections of Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, etc. Where did those resurrected saints go?  The early Church writers all concurred that these saints were taken to the Lord, and since most of those writers had close contact with the Apostles themselves or disciples of the Apostles, they probably are more accurate in this assertion than a 20th or 21st century textual critic

Then why are you using Noahs ark then?

Those saints that were taken in Matthew 27, was it in the days of Noah?

 The other problem still is that group of 24 elders. They have been there since chapter 4 and they have white robes and crowns, the latter being exclusive posession of believers.  Crown of Life, Crown of righteousness, Crown of Glory, etc. per the Epistles, and in Revelation 2 & 3, Yeshua has been mentioning rewards of white robes and crowns in His letters to the Churches.

Ive already dealt with this...I am still waiting for a rebuttal.

 

 

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