Pre-Tribulation Proofs

[inchrist]

18 minutes ago, Adstar said:

Did Jesus Christ have sexual desires for woman ?  Nope .. Jesus never married He remained celibate all his life.. So again this is another thing that the

anti-christ will mimic in his attempt to deceive Christians ..

So the antichrist rejecting woman rights mimics Christ?

Dalai Lama is celibate is he mimican Christ now?

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, Adstar said:

Please point me to what i said about matthew 24:24 ..  I have posted a lot on different forums lately.. If you have a quote please post it and say how it is in conflict with what i have said in your quote ? 

Sorry..

Here is the Matthew 24:24 post.

How do you reconcile that with this:

3 hours ago, Adstar said:

If satan wants to deceive people and lead them into eternal destruction.. What people group must he deceive to increase the numbers of people he is leading intoi destruction???

Would he focus on muslims ?  No because muslims are already deceived.

Would he focus on hindus?  No because hindus are already deceived.

So what group would satan be focused on to decieve if he wated to increase the number of people he is leading to the eternal lake of fire?

Answer:: Christians.. If we are Christians we know that satan has already got the rest of humanity damned..

What is one of the central doctrines that Christians believe about Jesus.. That Jesus is the Word of God made flesh.. That Jesus / the Holky Spirit / and the Father are God.. that Jesus is God or as we say Jesus is LORD...  So the anti-christ if he wants to deceive Christians must claim to be Jesus and thus must claim to be God..

 

[OldCoot]

19 hours ago, inchrist said:

Christ is crowned king on the coronation of Rosh Hashanah

Rev 11:15

 

Well now, you are interjecting a little bit of Talmudic thought here.  I will fully agree that Jewish tradition teaches that the coronation of the Messiah is on Yom Teruah.  Just like the wedding of the Messiah is at that time.  And the first trumpet of Yom Teruah is also called the awakening blast and some in Jewish tradition think it is a reference to the resurrection.  But it is speculation nonetheless.  I kind of agree with the idea in general, but there is no hard proof in scripture that all of these events transpire on Yom Teruah. 

But it has a unique feature about it that seems to correlate well with the resurrection.  It is a two day festival, it falls on  the first of Tishri and cannot be official determined when it starts until the new moon is verified.  It is called "the day that no man knows" in Jewish tradition, so it seems to dovetail nicely with Yeshua's claim... of that day, no man knows.  

 

19 hours ago, inchrist said:

Please explain why the battle of Jericho is not a prophetic pattern of the 7seals and 7 trumpets in Revelation 

Never said it wasn't.  Just never commented on it.  Actually, the entire Book of Joshua has striking relevance to the Book of Revelation.

 

12 hours ago, inchrist said:

Ive already dealt with this...I am still waiting for a rebuttal.

You will continue to wait.  Your comment did not change one  bit of my position on the 24 elders, so we will just have to disagree.  I am not obligated to rebut everything someone posts.  You didn't sway me, I didn't sway you.  So that part is dead in the water.

[Adstar]

21 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Here is the Matthew 24:24 post.

How do you reconcile that with this:

If satan wants to deceive people and lead them into eternal destruction.. What people group must he deceive to increase the numbers of people he is leading intoi destruction???

Would he focus on muslims ?  No because muslims are already deceived.

Would he focus on hindus?  No because hindus are already deceived.

So what group would satan be focused on to decieve if he wated to increase the number of people he is leading to the eternal lake of fire?

Answer:: Christians.. If we are Christians we know that satan has already got the rest of humanity damned..

What is one of the central doctrines that Christians believe about Jesus.. That Jesus is the Word of God made flesh.. That Jesus / the Holky Spirit / and the Father are God.. that Jesus is God or as we say Jesus is LORD...  So the anti-christ if he wants to deceive Christians must claim to be Jesus and thus must claim to be God..

I cannot see anything irreconcilable between the two posts ?

Why didn't you just say why you thought they where in conflict?

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Adstar said:

I cannot see anything irreconcilable between the two posts ?

Why didn't you just say why you thought they where in conflict?

Never mind then.  I may have misunderstood.

[Daniel 11:36]

Keep in mind that Matthew 24 is all about Israel during the coming tribulation

[Diaste]

On 5/3/2018 at 6:08 AM, OldCoot said:

The other problem still is that group of 24 elders. They have been there since chapter 4 and they have white robes and crowns, the latter being exclusive posession of believers.  Crown of Life, Crown of righteousness, Crown of Glory, etc. per the Epistles, and in Revelation 2 & 3, Yeshua has been mentioning rewards of white robes and crowns in His letters to the Churches

No one knows if crowns of any kind are exclusive to overcoming believers. Where in scripture are the elders equated as representative of the church?

Since 'nowhere' is the answer, you are in danger of adding to the prophecies of Revelation.

[Diaste]

On 5/3/2018 at 7:36 AM, Adstar said:

Did Jesus Christ have sexual desires for woman ?  Nope .. Jesus never married He remained celibate all his life..

Not denying this could be true. But how do we know? For sure Jesus experienced sexual desire as scripture says he was tempted as we are, just without sin.

So what do you have that proves Jesus never married? I am of the mind he did not, but I have no proof. Proof by omission is not good enough, very difficult to prove nonexistence. 

[OldCoot]

41 minutes ago, Diaste said:

No one knows if crowns of any kind are exclusive to overcoming believers. Where in scripture are the elders equated as representative of the church?

Since 'nowhere' is the answer, you are in danger of adding to the prophecies of Revelation.

Nope.  Not in danger of adding anything. Just commenting on what is there.   The 24 Elders are there. I didn’t add them. Just speculating on who they are.

[inchrist]

15 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Well now, you are interjecting a little bit of Talmudic thought here.  

Well the bible is a Hebrew book, with Hebrew thought, how can one claim hebrew interjection?

  I kind of agree with the idea in general, but there is no hard proof in scripture that all of these events transpire on Yom Teruah

But there is hard proof.... nothing has been speculative....I can go through everyone of those idoms and biblically prove it.

And you'll find everyone of those idoms at the 7th trumpet.

Pretribs do not have any literal evidence for their doctrine......

You have no literal church in heaven, you have no literal resurrection, no command of the voice at a literal trumpet. All prerequests for the rapture is non existent for the pre trib rapture

Everything is speculative and symbolized to form a pre trib belief

You have to symbolize the 24 elders to be the church...like below.

 You will continue to wait.  Your comment did not change one  bit of my position on the 24 elders

Crowns and especially Stephanie crowns are not worn exclusively by "overcomers" or church saints.

In Revelation 6:2 the rider on the white horse wears a stephanos crown, in Revelation 9:7 the demon-locusts from the pit wear stephanos crowns - since when are demons overcomes?

After the patterns of heaven

Hebrews 8:5
They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven.

 

God speaks to Moses:

Exodus 25:40

See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain    - for the tabernacle right...

Everything in the earthly tabernacle was patterned after the pre-existing heavenly Temple. 

Revelation 4:7 you  will find in the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back.

 

The living creatures:

Exodus 25:17-19
Make an atonement cover of pure gold-two and a half cubits long and a cubit and a half wide. And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.

The cherubim patterned after the pre-existing living creatures.

The 24 courses elders patterned 

1 Chronicles 24:1-4
These were the divisions of the sons of Aaron:
The sons of Aaron were Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar. But Nadab and Abihu died before their father did, and they had no sons; so Eleazar and Ithamar served as the priests. With the help of Zadok a descendant of Eleazar and Ahimelech a descendant of Ithamar, David separated them into divisions for their appointed order of ministering. A larger number of leaders were found among Eleazar's descendants than among Ithamar's, and they were divided accordingly: sixteen heads of families from Eleazar's descendants and eight heads of families from Ithamar's descendants.

So we have a total of 24 heads of families from the tribe of Levi during the time of king David.

This regulation of 24  priests rotating to minister in the Tabernacle was established after the pattern of heaven  

1 Chronicles: 24:19
This was their appointed order of ministering when they entered the temple of the LORD, according to the regulations prescribed for them by their forefather Aaron, as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded him.

This order was commanded by God written down by Aaron. Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. Revelation 4:4

The 24 courses of priests serving in the earthly Temple were patterned after the 24 celestial Angel Priests  who minister in the heavenly sanctuary.

This is not speculative, this is scriptural.