Pre-Tribulation Proofs

[OldCoot]

38 minutes ago, Amazing Horse said:

People in New Testament have the same problem as people in Old Testament .

There is nowhere written in Old Testament that Jesus had to come two times ! O________________o !

Thats why Jews were thinking that after Jesus come , he will make Kingdom of God  , and that's why they were upset when Jesus said that he is going to leave , they knew that he has to rule on throne of David as promise given by God to Mary  through archangel  Gabriel .

 

The only thing that we can conclude from Old Testament about two comming of Christ is that it could not fit into one comming.

From one hand you have  Daniel 2:44 and Isaiah 53:9

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

 

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

 

And from other hand you have : Daniel 9:26 and Isaiah 53:8

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

 

WHAT

How can Messiah be both forever and be cut off ? How can in Isa 8 be cut off but in Isa 9 prolong ?

That's why we know there had to be two comming of Christ , first to be crucified and cut off , then second comming to be ruling over them all  on throne of David .

 

 

Yeah, the two Messiah idea that many Jews developed trying to reconcile the passages.  Messiah ben Joseph (the suffering servant) and Messiah ben David (the conquering king).   I am convinced this is why John the Baptist sent his disciples to Yeshua to ask "are you the one or are we to expect another".  Many think JB's faith was wavering, but I think it was more of this dual Messiah concept that was messing with him. 

Edited September 14, 2017 by OldCoot

[TheBride123]

On 9/4/2017 at 10:56 PM, KiwiChristian said:

Proofs of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture (Errors of Post-Tribulation Rapture)

1. Revelation 19:11-21 does not mention a resurrection at the time of the glorious return of Christ.

2. Zechariah 14:1-5 does not mention a resurrection at the time of Christ’s glorious return. Why?

3. Not one Old Testament or NT passage which discusses the tribulation mentions the church.

4. The unknown day of the rapture, and the known day of the glorious appearing, cannot be the same day. Matthew 25:13.

5. ‘A door was opened in heaven’ (Rev. 4:1) to let John into heaven, is before the tribulation (Rev. 6).

6. ‘Come up hither’ (Rev 4:1). A voice called John to ‘come up hither’. Immediately he was in heaven.

7. The church is not on earth from Revelation 4-18, because of these observations:

i) The church on earth is mentioned 22 times in Revelation 1-3, but not once on earth from Rev. 5-19.
ii) The church is in heaven with resurrected bodies from Revelation 4-19 as seen by 9 statements.

8. The Rapture of the 24 elders of the church age (Revelation 4:1-11) occurs before the antichrist is revealed as the white horse rider at the beginning of the 7 years tribulation in Revelation 6:1,2.

The 24 Elders represent Old Testament and church age Christians raptured before the tribulation (Rev 5:9)

9. The 24 elders have their crowns of gold (Revelation 4:4).

10. The armies in heaven that follow Jesus Christ at His glorious appearing are church age Christians (Rev 19:14). They are not angels because Rev 19:8 reveals that the fine linen they are wearing is the righteousness of the saints (Revelation 19:8).

11. We are waiting for and looking for Jesus Christ to come and take us to heaven at the rapture. 12. ‘Wherefore comfort one another with these words’ (I Thessalonians 4:18).

13. ‘I also will keep thee out of (Greek: Τηρησω εк) the hour of temptation (the tribulation) which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth’ (Revelation 3:10).

14. Jesus returns from a Wedding to the church in heaven after the 7 years Tribulation. Luke 12:36.

15. The Restrainer (the church) will be taken out of the way before the antichrist is revealed at the start of the 7 year tribulation. (II Thessalonians 2:6-8).

16. At the rapture, Jesus receives us to Himself in heaven. We do not receive Him on earth (John 14:3)

17. The gathering of the tribulation elect after the 7 years tribulation is done by angels, but the gathering of the church is done by Jesus Christ Himself. (Matthew 24:31).

18. The righteous and wicked both can’t be taken first. Matthew 13:30,49.

19. Question 20: If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? (Matthew 25:31-46).

20. Question 21: Who will populate the millennium?

If a post-tribulation rapture occurs at the glorious appearing and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Nobody will be left with mortal, reproducing bodies. 21. Question 22: The judgment of Israel is discussed in Ezekiel 20:38, ‘I will purge out from among you the rebels.’ If all the saved (including saved Jews) had previously been separated a few days earlier by the rapture, there would be no need to separate saved Jews and lost Jews after Jesus Christ’s coming.

22. 14 Contrasts between the Rapture and the Glorious Appearing prove they are different events.

23. The Tribulation is called the time of Jacob’s trouble not the church’s trouble (Jeremiah 30:7). Question 25: How can the tribulation be called Jacob’s trouble for Israel and a blessed hope for the church, if both groups must go through it?

24. The focus of the Tribulation in the book of Revelation 7-18 on earth is on Israel, not the church:

25. The holy apostles and prophets who rejoice over Babylon’s destruction are in heaven. Rev 18:20

26. ‘The day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night’ (I Thessalonians 5:2).

27. ‘They’, ‘them’ and ‘they’ refer to unbelievers left behind after the rapture in I Thessalonians 5:3.

28. The church will not be ‘overtaken by the day of the Lord’ (I Thessalonians 5:4).

29. ‘For God hath not appointed us to wrath (of the tribulation), but to obtain salvation (deliverance from the tribulation) by our Lord Jesus Christ.’ (I Thessalonians 5:9).

‘Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath (tribulation) to come.’ (I Thessalonians 1:10). 1500

30. It is the character of God to deliver His own people from the greatest times of trials.

31. The ‘falling away’ (646) in II Thessalonians 2:3 is ‘the departure’ of the church and of the Holy Spirit’s influence in the church, before the antichrist is revealed. ‘Falling away’ (646) in Greek is ‘η apostasia’ a noun meaning something separative, a departure such as divorce (647), apostasy.

32. Only the pre-tribulation rapture position does not confuse the church and Israel, the church and the elect in different ages, tribulations and the tribulation period, and the trumpet of God and the trumpets of angels.

33. There is a time interval between Christ coming for his saints at the rapture of the church (Rev 4:1) and Christ coming with His saints at the glorious return of Christ (Rev. 19:11-21; Zechariah 14:1-5). If the rapture and glorious appearing occurred simultaneously, there would be no time for the Judgment Seat of Christ (II Cor. 5:10), the presenting of the church to Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:27), and the marriage of Christ to the church to take place. This time interval is stated in John 14:3. 34. Some people will escape the tribulation period. (Luke 21:34-36).

35. The church is not in Daniel’s 69 weeks period (Daniel 9:24-27), so it should not be in the70th week.

36. The structure of the book of Revelation proves the pre-tribulation rapture of the church.

37. At the rapture, believers go straight to the Father’s house (John 14:3), not straight back to earth as post-tribulationists think. ‘I will receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.’

38. The two purposes of Daniel’s 70th week are to test earth dwellers (Revelation 3:10) and to prepare Israel for the King (Malachi 4:5,6). These have no relation to the church whatsoever.

39. If the church enters the tribulation of God’s wrath, judgment and punishment, then because of her union with Christ, Christ would be subject to the same wrath, judgment and punishment of God.

40. The Silence in the New Testament Epistles on how to endure the tribulation.

41. The Relation of the church to earthly governments.

42. The Destiny of the church is to heaven (John 14:2,3). The destiny of the saved in the tribulation is not to heaven, but to the earth in the millennium.

‘Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom.’ (Matthew 25:34).

43. The doctrine of imminence (at any moment coming) forbids the church entering the tribulation.

44. The 144,000 Israelite preachers in the tribulation are not part of the church. (Revelation 7:14).

45. The only organized church in the tribulation is the apostate Jezebel system (Revelation 2:22) and the harlot system (Rev. 17,18). The true church, is nowhere mentioned on earth in the tribulation.

46. The 7 promises to the true church to be removed before the tribulation.

47. The church is the object of Christ’s love, not the object of Christ’s wrath (Ephesians 5:25). Question 51: Why would a bridegroom want to punish his new bride? Would you do this?
 

Completely false- this is personal translation the 24 elders are first the 12 apostles and the 12 elders of the twelve tribes of Israel . With a shout at the last trumpet (Tekiah Geddolah) with the voice of arch angel- first the dead in Christ shall rise and those of us remaining will be caught up into the heavens to meet the Lord. Then His wrath shall be poured out upon those with the mark of the beast. This is at the end of the tribulation. Are you legitimate?

is this forum legitimate? You just threw a bunch of spaghetti on the wall hoping something sticks. The new Bride will be preserved through grace and does not experience death through martyrdom and is raptured at the end of the tribulation. They are like Rachel who suffered along with Jacob because she loves him- she joins  Jacob (Israel) and Leah (The old covenant). The younger church suffers along with Israel . We should not put personal opinion above God's providence.

Edited September 14, 2017 by TheBride123

[OldCoot]

29 minutes ago, TheBride123 said:

Completely false- this is personal translation the 24 elders are first the 12 apostles and the 12 elders of the twelve tribes of Israel . With a shout at the last trumpet (Tekiah Geddolah) with the voice of arch angel- first the dead in Christ shall rise and those of us remaining will be caught up into the heavens to meet the Lord. Then His wrath shall be poured out upon those with the mark of the beast. This is at the end of the tribulation. Are you legitimate?

is this forum legitimate? You just threw a bunch of spaghetti on the wall hoping something sticks. The new Bride will be preserved through grace and does not experience death through martyrdom and is raptured at the end of the tribulation. They are like Rachel who suffered along with Jacob because she loves him- she joins  Jacob (Israel) and Leah (The old covenant). The younger church suffers along with Israel . We should not put personal opinion above God's providence.

Not sure the analogy of Jacob and Rachel works.  While both Israel and the Believers are "called out" and set aside, they are not quite in the same classification.  Israel is holy (consecrated and set apart) because of the promise to Abraham about his descendants. But that doesn't have anything to do with their individual salvation.  The church is holy but it is only comprised of justified individuals who are consecrated and set apart, unlike Israel, where being born into it makes you one, being in the church is a decision based on faith and trust. 

The point was well made... if the church goes thru the tribulation period, then why would there be a need for the sheep and goat judgement?  Also, if the church goes thru the tribulation and then is raptured at the end, only leaving unbelievers, then who is going in to the millennial kingdom to repopulate it?  That is the purpose of the sheep and goat judgement. Those that survive this massive calamity called the Time of Jacobs Trouble / Day of the Lord / Tribulation period, etc and came to faith  (minus the church) are the sheep who continue on into the millennial kingdom to repopulate it, and those that had the mark, those that did not place their trust in Yeshua, etc are the goats who are separated and cast away.  

I will add, having the church go thru the tribulation is akin to this idea....  "Hey dear, I will betroth you as my bride, then I will beat the snot out of you for 7 years, and then we will go have dinner.  Comfort one another with these words.".  It may be a little irreverent, but it gets right to the point of the matter.  

The idea that the church goes thru the tribulation does not line up with many passages.  Yeshua's comments  in Luke 21:36 for instance. The idea actually smacks of paganism, in that a person has to prove themselves and suffer for the privilege of reaching the higher goal.  Totally contrary to salvation a free gift, and it seems as an insult to God that Yeshua's death wasn't sufficient to justify.  

We all probably have many aspects to these things wrong to one degree or another.  Not surprising.  We didn't inspire the text and we are fallen creatures looking at these things with mortal eyes and praying that the HS will enlighten us.  No one has a total lock on these things.  Anyone who thinks they do either is delusional or a liar.

[Amazing Horse]

If Church goes through tribulation then they are not saved by grace through faith alone as stated in Ephesians 2:8-9 but by works by keeping commandments and having testimony of Jesus Christ while having thier head chopped off .

It would contradict John 10:28 aswell

[TheBride123]

7 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Not sure the analogy of Jacob and Rachel works.  While both Israel and the Believers are "called out" and set aside, they are not quite in the same classification.  Israel is holy (consecrated and set apart) because of the promise to Abraham about his descendants. But that doesn't have anything to do with their individual salvation.  The church is holy but it is only comprised of justified individuals who are consecrated and set apart, unlike Israel, where being born into it makes you one, being in the church is a decision based on faith and trust. 

The point was well made... if the church goes thru the tribulation period, then why would there be a need for the sheep and goat judgement?  Also, if the church goes thru the tribulation and then is raptured at the end, only leaving unbelievers, then who is going in to the millennial kingdom to repopulate it?  That is the purpose of the sheep and goat judgement. Those that survive this massive calamity called the Time of Jacobs Trouble / Day of the Lord / Tribulation period, etc and came to faith  (minus the church) are the sheep who continue on into the millennial kingdom to repopulate it, and those that had the mark, those that did not place their trust in Yeshua, etc are the goats who are separated and cast away.  

I will add, having the church go thru the tribulation is akin to this idea....  "Hey dear, I will betroth you as my bride, then I will beat the snot out of you for 7 years, and then we will go have dinner.  Comfort one another with these words.".  It may be a little irreverent, but it gets right to the point of the matter.  

The idea that the church goes thru the tribulation does not line up with many passages.  Yeshua's comments  in Luke 21:36 for instance. The idea actually smacks of paganism, in that a person has to prove themselves and suffer for the privilege of reaching the higher goal.  Totally contrary to salvation a free gift, and it seems as an insult to God that Yeshua's death wasn't sufficient to justify.  

We all probably have many aspects to these things wrong to one degree or another.  Not surprising.  We didn't inspire the text and we are fallen creatures looking at these things with mortal eyes and praying that the HS will enlighten us.  No one has a total lock on these things.  Anyone who thinks they do either is delusional or a liar.

Again, people pick and choose of scripture to fit their own argument . Luke 21, should be read in it's fullness- anyone can take a verse and convert it to what they want it to mean. Luke 21:29 states that this generation shall not pass away until all these things - He fore mentioned in the beginning of the Luke 21: dialogue -comes to pass. The verse you placed speaks to the need to remain alert for we know not when the Lord will return. Complacency is a no-no. Only God is good. As for the Lord beating up His Bride- that is a bunch of bunk. The wicked beat up the bride. Why are you surprised? No student is above their teacher, if they have persecuted the householder, how much more the house. What they do to the Bride they did to Christ first- John 15 speaks to this very fact.  Christianity is not for the faint at heart. In love there is no fear. We must be perfected in love. 1 John4:18 "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love." And this chapter should too be read in its entirety. God Bless

 

[TheBride123]

21 minutes ago, Amazing Horse said:

If Church goes through tribulation then they are not saved by grace through faith alone as stated in Ephesians 2:8-9 but by works by keeping commandments and having testimony of Jesus Christ while having thier head chopped off .

It would contradict John 10:28 aswell

Ephesians 2:8-9 speaks nothing as to a rapture. I know it speaks to being saved by grace- by no act of our own. We, putting faith in Christ are given the Holy Spirit. This saving grace spoken here is the salvation of the soul. Not the preservation of the flesh from persecution or martyrdom. People need to read all of Ephesians.  John 10:28 Speaks to the eternal life of the soul. Really? Have you not read- " Fear not him who kills the body, but rather He who can destroy both body and soul in the fires of Gehenna, (Matthew 10:28). In love there is no fear. We must be perfected in love , perfect love cast out fear- John 15 speaks to this very fact.  You sound very afraid as to what is coming.

The elect who are not martyred will be raptured at the sound of the last trumpet. The New Church which Rachel in the old testament represents, (concerning the end time church will be kept in the Father's care.) She will be greatly

persecuted and will not be saved from the tribulation. She will encourage Jacob (Israel) . Rachel did this in actuality for Jacob when he labored 7 years for her. She did not abandon Jacob nor will the The Younger Church abandon Israel. Old testament patriarchs and matriarchs represent in actuality a future state of being of Israel and the Church. God Bless!

[Amazing Horse]

17 minutes ago, TheBride123 said:

Ephesians 2:8-9 speaks nothing as to a rapture. I know it speaks to being saved by grace- by no act of our own. We, putting faith in Christ are given the Holy Spirit. This saving grace spoken here is the salvation of the soul. Not the preservation of the flesh from persecution or martyrdom. People need to read all of Ephesians.  John 10:28 Speaks to the eternal life of the soul. Really? Have you not read- " Fear not him who kills the body, but rather He who can destroy both body and soul in the fires of Gehenna, (Matthew 10:28). In love there is no fear. We must be perfected in love , perfect love cast out fear- John 15 speaks to this very fact.  You sound very afraid as to what is coming.

The elect who are not martyred will be raptured at the sound of the last trumpet. The New Church which Rachel in the old testament represents, (concerning the end time church will be kept in the Father's care.) She will be greatly

persecuted and will not be saved from the tribulation. She will encourage Jacob (Israel) . Rachel did this in actuality for Jacob when he labored 7 years for her. She did not abandon Jacob nor will the The Younger Church abandon Israel. Old testament patriarchs and matriarchs represent in actuality a future state of being of Israel and the Church. God Bless!

Last trump is at the end of 1000 year millenium kingdom not in tribulation , too bad :C

Trumpets blown in tribulation are by angels , rapture is Trump of God himself .

Edited September 14, 2017 by Amazing Horse

[TheBride123]

12 minutes ago, Amazing Horse said:

Last trump is at the end of 1000 year millenium kingdom not in tribulation , too bad :C

Trumpets blown in tribulation are by angels , rapture is Trump of God himself .

 

The Last Trump  ( Tekiah Gedolah ) does mean the voice of Christ.  Shofar Hagadolis the Last trumpet of Yom Kippur- and signifies the end of the great tribulation period and the second coming of Christ. But -those part of the thousand year reign- some are raptured at the end of the Shofar Hagadolis Rev. 20 they are seated upon thrones- the other portion are the souls of the beheaded. They will be part of the millenium kingdom. They are the first resurrection.  The Rachel part of the Bride will not be martyred the Jews of the old covenant who embrace Rachel= YOUNGER= The new covenant are: persecuted by those who ate the RED STEW. The story of Jacob and Esau. I will create a post concerning this. I think it will give a better perspective on my views instead of bits  and pieces. Proper debate and dialogue then can be made. I think this is especially important, so Christians seeking guidance get the full story. It is still at the end of the tribulation that Rachel is raptured. God Bless.

[Amazing Horse]

6 minutes ago, TheBride123 said:

The Last Trump  ( Tekiah Gedolah ) does mean the voice of Christ.  Shofar Hagadolis the Last trumpet of Yom Kippur- and signifies the end of the great tribulation period and the second coming of Christ. But -those part of the thousand year reign- some are raptured at the end of the Shofar Hagadolis Rev. 20 they are seated upon thrones- the other portion are the souls of the beheaded. They will be part of the millenium kingdom. They are the first resurrection.  The Rachel part of the Bride will not be martyred the Jews of the old covenant who embrace Rachel= YOUNGER= The new covenant are: persecuted by those who ate the RED STEW. The story of Jacob and Esau. I will create a post concerning this. I think it will give a better perspective on my views instead of bits  and pieces. Proper debate and dialogue then can be made. I think this is especially important, so Christians seeking guidance get the full story. It is still at the end of the tribulation that Rachel is raptured. God Bless.

No , trump of God appears only once in Scriptures , keep trying to defend it .

[TheBride123]

Just now, Amazing Horse said:

No , trump of God appears only once in Scriptures , keep trying to defend it .

As I said, I will make a post. It is too confusing for those who may be following this debate to get the full scope of what I am saying. I will defend what I am saying in my post. Thank you for the challenge, I will meet it. Sometimes patience is needed- if I am to be found wrong afterwards then TOUCHE! I will humbly concede. I am only seeking truth. I will give understanding as to what the Hebrew trumpets meant to the Israelite's and what each trumpet represented. I feel this is important to the discussion. Because the old testament meanings are significant for today. God Bless!