Pre-Tribulation Proofs

[Last Daze]

On 9/15/2017 at 5:39 PM, Robert William said:

Scripture teaches that the rapture is at the last trump

That's one thing we know for certain.  I find it quite interesting that the only explicitly stated timing of the rapture is largely ignored.  Everyone agrees that it is at the last trump, but I see little to no interest in searching out the OT to see where God revealed this to His servants, the prophets.  Since Zechariah 9:14 doesn't fit most people's eschatology, "the last trump" tends to become marginalized or spiritualized.  If Paul wasn't referring to Zechariah 9:14 then what OT scripture did he have in mind when he stated that the rapture happens at the last trumpet of God?  It's certainly speaking of the trumpet of God.  Unless someone can point out one that comes after that one, then I'd say it's the last one.

[Amazing Horse]

2 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

That's one thing we know for certain.  I find it quite interesting that the only explicitly stated timing of the rapture is largely ignored.  Everyone agrees that it is at the last trump, but I see little to no interest in searching out the OT to see where God revealed this to His servants, the prophets.  Since Zechariah 9:14 doesn't fit most people's eschatology, "the last trump" tends to become marginalized or spiritualized.  If Paul wasn't referring to Zechariah 9:14 then what OT scripture did he have in mind when he stated that the rapture happens at the last trumpet of God?  It's certainly speaking of the trumpet of God.  Unless someone can point out one that comes after that one, then I'd say it's the last one.

Last trump is in last year of 1000 yea Kingdom , so even last trumpet in tribulation is not last  , rapture trump is Trump of God which is i beleive only mentioned once in KJV , tribulation trumps are blown by angels.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Amazing Horse

[Last Daze]

42 minutes ago, Amazing Horse said:

Last trump is in last year of 1000 yea Kingdom , so even last trumpet in tribulation is not last  , rapture trump is Trump of God which is i beleive only mentioned once in KJV , tribulation trumps are blown by angels.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 are speaking of the same event, when those who are Christ's put on immortality when He returns.  Just because those two passages aren't identical in their description of that event doesn't mean they aren't talking about the same thing.  

[Amazing Horse]

6 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 are speaking of the same event, when those who are Christ's put on immortality when He returns.  Just because those two passages aren't identical in their description of that event doesn't mean they aren't talking about the same thing.  

How about these two Matthew 24:32-33

32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

 

and Matthew 24:44

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

If you put all together in one event then these two will contradict itself , i gave you two almost identical descriptions that don't talk abouy the same thing as you want

Edited September 17, 2017 by Amazing Horse

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Amazing Horse said:

How about these two Matthew 24:32-33

32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

 

and Matthew 24:44

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

If you put all together in one event then these two will contradict itself , i gave you two almost identical descriptions that don't talk abouy the same thing as you want

I guess that makes sense to you, but I'm not following it.   Anyway, continue in the faith and the Holy Spirit will guide.  He transcends language barriers.

[Robert William]

Thanks, everybody, I find it difficult to come to a definite conclusion with the book of Revelation.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Robert William

[Steve_S]

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, which occurs before the Great Tribulation.

 

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

1) It does in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-9

2 Thessalonians 2:7-9 is not referring to the rapture. It refers to the mystery of lawlessness, the restrainer, the revealing of the lawless one, and the coming of the lawless one:

2Th 2:7  For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8  And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2Th 2:9  The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,

 

[Steve_S]

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

2. It does not refer to a 7 year period as the Great Tribulation.

 

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

2) Church is removed from hour of temptation , Church is waiting for blessed hope and blessed hope is not antichrist and famine with wars  untill half of world dies . Titus 2:13

Tit 2:11  For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12  teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
Tit 2:13  looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

The Bible does specifically say what Christ's coming will look like:

Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is specifically mentioned as being after the tribulation, not before. There are many correlative verses to this, as well. I could post a list, but won't here, unless it is requested.

[Steve_S]

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

3. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is removed from the Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation.

 

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

3) It does in  2 Thessalonians 2:7 , it's removed before Tribulation / Great Tribulation , because Antichrist could not rise to power because of this in 1 John 4:4

2 Thessalonians 2:7 says this:

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

The identity of the restrainer is not directly revealed in this verse. In fact, the previous verse actually mentions that Paul had already told the Thessalonian church the identity of the restrainer:

2Th 2:5  Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
2Th 2:6  And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

This is not revealed to us in this book though, only in person to them.

Addressing 1 John 4:4:

1Jn 4:4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

This is referencing the previous verses on the spirit of anti-Christ, which was already operating then and continues to now. The man of sin will come in this spirit, but nowhere does this correlate directly to the identity of the restrainer, which is what this third point that Omega made is referring to.

[Steve_S]

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

4. It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath of God.

 

On 9/15/2017 at 5:46 PM, Amazing Horse said:

4) It does in Isaiah 26:18-21 , Revelation 6:16-17 , 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

Isaiah first:

Isa 26:18  We have been with child, we have been in pain; We have, as it were, brought forth wind; We have not accomplished any deliverance in the earth, Nor have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
Isa 26:19  Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, And the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isa 26:20  Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past.

Isa 26:21 For behold, the LORD comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain.

This may be referring to a period of Wrath, but it does not specifically name the "Great tribulation" as a period of wrath.

Revelation next:

Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
Rev 6:16  and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
Rev 6:17  For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

This may take place during the period Christ mentions as the Great Tribulation, but again, it doesn't directly or indirectly make reference to a "tribulation" period.

2 Thessalonians:

2Th 2:11  And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
2Th 2:12  that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This is pretty obvious direct reference to those who accept the mark and follow the man of sin. Again, this may take place before, during, and/or after the Great Tribulation, but it is not directly associated with the great tribulation. I tend to think this phase starts prior to the Great Tribulation, but that is a personal opinion.

Christ specifically mentions "great tribulation":

Mat 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This is contextually a period that must begin after the abomination of desolation:

Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Mat 24:17  Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.
Mat 24:18  And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.
Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
Mat 24:20  And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.
Mat 24:21  For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

So, while wrath judgments are likely a part of the great tribulation, or occur during it, would be the way I would put it, that specific period is one of 3-1/2 years, not 7, as it begins immediately in the middle of Daniel's 70th week, started with the abomination of desolation.

Of note, Christians are directly mentioned as emerging from the great tribulation as martyrs in the Revelation.

Rev 7:13  Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
Rev 7:14  And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So quite obviously there are a multitude of Christians present during this period.