Spiritual or Physical Death

[Guest shiloh357]

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Shiloh,

Now God`s word definitely tells us what the tree of life stood for - to `live for ever.` (Gen. 3: 22) 

But that is not eternal life. And it only had that effect, as far as we can tell on Adam and Eve in their fallen state.

 

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1. Adam & Eve were made from the dust of the earth and thus were not immortal.

Just because they were made from the dust, it does not follow that they were immortal.   They were in fact, immortal.

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2. They were able to eat from all the trees, (which also were from the ground) including the tree of life, (except the tree of knowledge...) which are mentioned separately from those of the ground.

Yes.

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So your theory of the tree of life being a tree does not hold out on many points.

1. It was not of the ground.

 

First of all you don't know that, and even if that were true, it doesn't mean it wasn't a literal tree.   You are making a lot of jumps in logic based on your own assumptions and not a solid, competent exegesis of Scripture.

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2. As Adam & Eve could eat it before the fall, then God would be letting them become immortal and then exposing them to sin and living like that for ever. That is absurd. 

No, that is not the case.  The Tree of life was only a curse to them AFTER fall, not before.  We don't know what the purpose of the tree was prior to the fall of Adam.   It would have only served to doom them to being eternally cursed if they ate it in their fallen state.

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Your theory is trying to stand on `what God`s word does not say,` and that is an untruth.

No, that is what you're doing.  You are trying to concoct some silly notion that the tree of life in the Garden was not a real tree and was a figure of Christ an it is complete hogwash and false teaching based on trying to manufacture connections that the Bible doesn't make.

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You are also trying on the other hand to say `you believe` God`s word, when actually you are putting blinkers on and not relating this in Genesis to ALL of God`s word. That is partiality.

I am exegeting Genesis 3 the way it is written as a historical narrative.   You are trying to force relationships between verses, where no such relationships exist.  

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And finally you, dear bro, have stepped into mysticism. I will post on that later, as there is enough for you here.

 

Marilyn.

 

No, I am not being mystical.  That is a false claim.  If anything your approach is closer to mysticism than anything I have said.

[Marilyn C]

11 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

 They were in fact, immortal.

 

Hi Shiloh,

It is very clear in God`s word that Adam, made from the dust of the earth, was only a living being.

`And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." (1 Cor. 15: 45)

Thus he was not immortal, he needed the communion with the Lord, for ongoing life.

`The first man was of the earth, made of dust;.....` (I cor. 15: 47)

What is of the dust, returns to the dust of the earth. Adam needed God`s continual presence in His life to continue in life.

Where is your proof of their immortality?

Marilyn.

 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

10 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Shiloh,

It is very clear in God`s word that Adam, made from the dust of the earth, was only a living being.

`And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." (1 Cor. 15: 45)

Thus he was not immortal, he needed the communion with the Lord, for ongoing life.

`The first man was of the earth, made of dust;.....` (I cor. 15: 47)

What is of the dust, returns to the dust of the earth. Adam needed God`s continual presence in His life to continue in life.

Where is your proof of their immortality?

Marilyn.

 

 

Adam had eternal life.   Adam was not created to die and had he not disobeyed the Lord, he and Eve would not have died.   Death was not part of the world prior to the fall among any living creature.  

Adam's return to dust is the result of his sin, not because death was engineered into creation by God before the fall.

 

[frienduff thaylorde]

30 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Shiloh,

It is very clear in God`s word that Adam, made from the dust of the earth, was only a living being.

`And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." (1 Cor. 15: 45)

Thus he was not immortal, he needed the communion with the Lord, for ongoing life.

`The first man was of the earth, made of dust;.....` (I cor. 15: 47)

What is of the dust, returns to the dust of the earth. Adam needed God`s continual presence in His life to continue in life.

Where is your proof of their immortality?

Marilyn.

 

 

Let us test what both Shiloh and Marilyn C said and see who is correct.

Its real easy to see.   ready.     wait for it.........................getting closer..............

WHY DID GOD SET THE CHERAB .   TO guard what.................so that adam could not eat from what

THE TREE OF LIFE and LIVE FOREVER.    MARILYN C...................is correct.    Adam was not created immortal.   the Death GOD spoke of was SPIRITIUAL DEATH .

Marilyn    you be blessed dear sister.     OH, we love you too Shiloh.   But its best to just always correct with scripture.  

[n2thelight]

The Assyrian is a type of Satan

Ezek 31:7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters. 8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chestnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty. 9I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

None was like satan in beauty, such that it caused envy. What kind of trees envy?

Trees are used also as the symbol or a type of man; Christ is saying more than He is saying in words.

Mark 8:25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Yes the man saw clearly; he could see the trees in the garden and in the book of Revelation. (5081 telaugos (tay-low-goce');adverb from a compound of a derivative of 5056 and 827; in a far-shining manner, i.e. plainly: KJV-- clearly. {from5056 telos (tel'-os); from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically, an impost or levy (as paid): KJV-- + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare 5411. Cf telescope: to draw things in closely}.

Let’s expand our view, telescope through the scriptures so we might see more clearly.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

You may be a tree grafted into the kingdom -

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Or you may be a branch of the natural tree re-grafted to God’s family -

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

These trees are supposed to bear fruit!

James 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

There will be imitation trees. Be careful! Look at what Matthew has to say about trees

Matt 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Matt 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Matt 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

This fruit comes from having Gods word in your heart better said, mind.

Matt 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. 20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away! Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

Jesus spoke these words after casting out the money changers. Can you see the connection with false religion here. The false teachers partook of false religious practices; leaven; fragmented bread.

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Here begins the sequence for deception of the last days

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

And the sealing of those with the truth who are His children. In the first seal of Revelation

satan comes on a white horse with an imitation bow. Is this knowledge sealed in your mind? If it isn’t your in trouble! You may not be able to distinguish the truth from the imitation. That system is already here in its pre-locust pupal form. Look around at the false teachings, open your eyes to the leaven!

Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Why are one third of the trees burnt up?

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Here we see again men defined as trees - God said there would be a blessing for you for those who read the book of Revelation. God’s seal is the seal of truth in your mind: the word (Jesus) filling your mind, opening your eyes, so that you would be able to discern the lies of this age; or those with eyes to see and ears to hear; the understanding that heals

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

These are the two witnesses; anointed with the Holy Spirit.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Jesus is the tree of life. You can partake of the tree of life. Here’s how.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

His commandments are His word. You can’t keep his commandments if you do not know His Word; man’s doctrine will smother the truth. Don’t let any man rob you of His word. They may rob you of eternal life. Come out of the confusion by getting into His word.

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References and Further Study:

God refers to men as trees:

Isa 61:1-3 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

Look also at the trees of the wood; forest; field in Isa 7:2; 10:19; 44:14 and 55:12

Don’t touch that tree! (from the Genesis study)

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

5060 naga` (naw-gah');a primitive root; properly, to touch, i.e. lay the hand upon (for any purpose; euphem., to lie with a woman); by implication, to reach (figuratively, to arrive, acquire); violently, to strike (punish, defeat, destroy, etc.):KJV-- beat, (X be able to) bring (down), cast, come (nigh), draw near (nigh), get up, happen, join, near, plague, reach (up), smite, strike, touch. The beguiling of Eve

2 Cor11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

1818 exapatao (ex-ap-at-ah'-o);from 1537 and 538; to seduce wholly: 
KJV-- beguile, deceive.} Trees - the spine- eyes

6086 `ets (ates); from 6095; a tree (from its firmness); hence, wood (plural sticks): KJV-- + carpenter, gallows, helve, + pine, plank, staff, stalk, stick, stock, timber, tree, wood. 

6095 `atsah (aw-tsaw');a primitive root; properly, to fasten (or make firm), i.e. to close (the eyes): 
KJV-- shut. 

6096 `atseh (aw-tseh');from 6095; the spine (as giving firmness to the body): 
KJV-- backbone. Cedar - deep roots 

730 'erez (eh-rez');from 729; a cedar tree (from the tenacity of its roots): 
KJV-- cedar (tree). 

729 'araz- as a verb:1) to be firm 2) made firm (past participle) Brown-Driver-Briggs/Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament: as an adjective: 3) firm, strong 

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Tree vs 'Instead of Tree'

Tree of Life vs tree of knowledge of good and evil. Look at what happened to this tree:

Ezek 31:10-12 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height; 11 I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the heathen; he shall surely deal with him: I have driven him out for his wickedness. 12 And strangers, the terrible of the nations, have cut him off, and have left him: upon the mountains and in all the valleys his branches are fallen, and his boughs are broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the people of the earth are gone down from his shadow, and have left him.

Ezek 31:15-16 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him. 
16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

Come out of confusion: Deliver yourself!

Zechariah 2:7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.

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MEN AS TREES IN THE MINOR PROPHETS

Hosea 9:10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The teacher prophets (9:8)were a snare; false teachings led to apostasy; the people threw their blessings away. They were throwing away their inheritance.

Hosea 14:6 His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon. Hosea 14:8 Ephraim shall say, What have I to do any more with idols? I have heard him, and observed him: I am like a green fir tree. From me is thy fruit found.

The fatherless find mercy in Him (14:3-5) He is an evergreen tree; in Him we are able to bear fruit

Joel 1:7 He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.

The people are stripped bare; they are drunk on false doctrines. The new wine is cut off from them. They are told to sober up. Traditions have put them to sleep! Compare this (1:6) to Rev 9 the instead of Christ rises to power; people stung in the head with false doctrine; letting their heritage go; not knowing the Word and plan of God.

Joel 1:12 The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men.

Vine dressers (1:11)-the people who feed the trees aren’t doing their job; no Truth - no true spiritual food for people.

Joel 1:19 O LORD, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.

These trees are burned. Our god is a consuming fire. People pay the price in anguish, pain and disappointment because they don’t get into the meat of God’s word.

Joel 2:22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.

For some the latter rains come; for those who tell God they love him and get into His word. These trees enjoy the fruit of their labor. There is rapid ripening of fruit in that five month period. Seeds planted now come to fruition.

Amos 4:9 I have smitten you with blasting and mildew: when your gardens and your vineyards and your fig trees and your olive trees increased, the palmerworm devoured them: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.

One city got rain while another didn’t (4:4). Wherever you are, God will rain on you if you study God’s word with understanding. But in the famine you will never get enough from those who make the word of God void. Even in the famine, and though smitten, there are many trees for whom there is no self examination, no repentance, no exercising of the mind. Not even a thank you for the Father.

Nahum 2:3 The shield of his mighty men is made red, the valiant men are in scarlet: the chariots shall be with flaming torches in the day of his preparation, and the fir trees shall be terribly shaken.

Some trees will be terribly shaken when the supernatural chariots arrive. Many won’t make it without the truth. Many just won’t make it.

Nahum 3:12 All thy strong holds shall be like fig trees with the firstripe figs: if they be shaken, they shall even fall into the mouth of the eater.

The trees blossom with false doctrine and think they’re doing pretty good. But it will be too late. God allows them to fall into the hands of the instead of Christ. Read the rest of Nahum. It looks familiar if you’ve read Rev. 9.

Hab 3:17 Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labour of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls:

Remember the cursed fig tree? A particular fig-tree - no flowers and no fruit. Depends on who you are; false doctrine trees bear no fruit, for all their works they lead the unsuspecting to the camp of the instead-of-Christ. Good figs produce fruit by planting the true seed; others are thrown in the fire. The threshing is coming: but there is joy in salvation for those who understand it.

Hag 2:19 Is the seed yet in the barn? yea, as yet the vine, and the fig tree, and the pomegranate, and the olive tree, hath not brought forth: from this day will I bless you.

Exercise your mind here (2:15). The seed is the word. It is not to be kept in the barn- rather it is sown to produce a harvest; in due season plant the seed and the word will produce fruit. Even to the spiritually asleep or dead. Look around they’re not far from you!

Zech 1:8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.

Many are asleep or dead who think in their hearts they are getting by pretty good. But the moth is eating at the fabric of their life. God puts holes in their buckets to get their attention. The myrtle trees are the brush trees used to scent the booths at succoth. The angels provide us with intelligence as to the state of affairs at the end.

Zech 1:10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth. 11. And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.

The angels explain they were sent to find out if the time is right; but they report the world is already at peace. The trees think Christ is already here….. Their eyes are closed. 

Mark 8:23-25
23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Adam had eternal life.   Adam was not created to die and had he not disobeyed the Lord, he and Eve would not have died.   Death was not part of the world prior to the fall among any living creature.  

Adam's return to dust is the result of his sin, not because death was engineered into creation by God before the fall.

 

Hi Shiloh,

I notice that you do not use scripture to prove what you are saying.

Adam was of the dust of the earth & needed communion with God to continue in life. That is not inherent immortal life, however Adam would not have died if he had kept obeying God and thus kept in communion with him.

Still waiting for your scriptures to prove your theory!

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Let us test what both Shiloh and Marilyn C said and see who is correct.

Its real easy to see.   ready.     wait for it.........................getting closer..............

WHY DID GOD SET THE CHERAB .   TO guard what.................so that adam could not eat from what

THE TREE OF LIFE and LIVE FOREVER.    MARILYN C...................is correct.    Adam was not created immortal.   the Death GOD spoke of was SPIRITIUAL DEATH .

Marilyn    you be blessed dear sister.     OH, we love you too Shiloh.   But its best to just always correct with scripture.  

Hi frienduff,

Thank you for your kind words, however I need to explain a bit clearer my position.

I see that Adam was made of dust, as God`s word says, and thus without God he would die, however with constant communion with God he would continue for ever.

So I agree Adam was not made immortal, and the death God spoke of was both a spiritual and a physical as without communion with God Adam would have no sustaining life (from God). His earthly being would run its course, by reason of strength or interrupted by a killing, (Cain & Abel).

regards, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

I would like to expound a bit more on this subject, and see what you think.

We know that God made Adam from the dust of the earth and God made everything else. God said that it (all) was good. There was no sin, sickness, or disease. God upheld all things and sustained them by His life that flowed out to His creation.

Now although Adam was made perfect, he was still vulnerable in three areas -

 

1. Spiritually - Adam had a free will and thus could either obey God or disobey Him. If Adam obeyed God then he would continue to receive sustenance, life from God. If however Adam decided to disobey God then he would be disconnected from God, his life source, and his spirit would then be `dead.`.

`And you he made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins.` (Eph. 1: 2)

 

2. Physically - Adam had a `good` body free of sin, sickness and disease, as long as he received life from God. If he separated himself from God, his life source, then his physical body would only run till its strength ran out.

 

3. Creation - the earth and its fullness was created good, without sin, sickness or disease. Now because God gave man dominion over it, it was vulnerable also. Thus when Adam sinned and was separated from his life source, the creation also was affected. This had dire consequences for creation and affected mankind also.

`For we know that the whole creation groans and labours with birth pangs together until now.` (Rom. 8: 22)

`Cursed is the ground for your sake;....` (Gen. 3: 17)

 

regards, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Shiloh,

You may not realize it but you are using certain emotive statements to back up your theory and NOT using God`s word. I read all your comments to me from page 7 - now (14) and you have only used one scripture - Gen. 2: 22 - 24. (the scripture in question).You have not backed up your theory using any other scriptures.  

Every part of scripture needs to fit in with the whole of Scripture. Thus when a topic comes up we read all connected to that topic. Your error is to just look at the one part without putting it into the context of the whole of scripture.

 

Here is an example of your false logic -

You believe that `The tree of life,` - is a real tree because `tree` is written there.

Let`s apply this to another example -

Jesus is `the Lamb of God.` - this is a real lamb, because `lamb` is written there.

 

That obviously makes nonsense of what we read. However when we put those scriptures in context of the whole of scripture we realize that -

Only the Lord can give life, forever, everlasting life, eternal life. All life is from Him. (John 1: 2) Thus the tree of life is symbolic of Christ sustaining Adam.

The `Lamb` is symbolic of Christ`s sacrifice for us. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter. (Isa. 53: 7)

 

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Shiloh,

Here are a few examples of your emotive tactics, which I might say is how the world operates.

 

`You need to just read the Bible and not add values to it.

You need to take God at His word instead of apply false values to the parts you don`t want to believe.

That`s what the Bible says and I take God at His word.

I don`t challenge His integrity.

Why do you find it so hard to just believe the Bible.

You need to start believing the Bible instead of making up this faux theological nonsense.

You can trust in man`s word, if you want to. I will trust in the pure word of God and I will believe what it says over what man says.

I am just going to continue to trust in the scriptures, as God means exactly what He says.

It`s really simple and I don`t understand why you`re trying to make this more complicated than it is.

I have seen firsthand, from past experience, that your erroneous theology  thrives on manufacturing connection that don`t exist between passages of scripture and trying to force the Bible to say what you need it to say, and I am simply not going to have this debate on your terms.`

 

The whole basis of your theory is `what God says.` However you have NOT used any other scriptures to prove this. Merely repeating ad infinitum that it is God`s word. That is NOT proof. We all think we are believing God`s word.

Also you have inferred many times that I am not trusting God, or His word or His integrity. Strong accusations there bro. (see quotes above)

And BTW we are not in a debate here, just discussing, along with some others, some of which believe as I do also.

 

Marilyn.