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Christians Losing Salvation


Pudgenik

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On 9/8/2017 at 4:53 PM, Pudgenik said:

If we are to look at the Bible as the inspired Word of God, and I do. Then we have to acknowledge also that Jesus had a hand in what was written and how it was orchestrated.

....

Following the way of God, Jesus, comes from the heart. And it is an everyday, every second, choice.

 

Amen --

 

On 8/28/2017 at 9:56 AM, enoob57 said:

Loss of salvation is an oxymoron ... The Scripture clearly teach salvation is of God and is kept by God ~ who then can change this?

Your reference to your own preference -- noted.

 

Here is what "scripture clearly teaches"

Fallen from grace, severed from Christ - Galatians 5:1-4 " You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace "

Forgiveness revoked: Matthew 18: 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Disqualified from the Gospel : 1 Cor 9:23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you. 24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Stand by Faith yet fear being cut off from Christ: Romans 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again
 

Do not be deceived into believing OSAS 1 Cor 6:Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified

Preferences are "nice" and everyone has them... but I prefer actual scripture for doctrine.

 

OSAS does not survive a close review of scripture

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On 9/9/2017 at 5:15 PM, Wayne222 said:

Those who Fall away were never born again. We have a new heart that fears and loves God that is why we will not Fall away.

It is possible for born again Christians to fall away.  Paul gave a warning in Hebrews 5: 4-8

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,  and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,  if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;  but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned."

Another warning Paul gave in 1 Corinthians 10: 1-6

"Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,  all ate the same spiritual food,  and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.  But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted."

If we fail to continue abide in Christ and work on our relationship with God, there is the possibility that we could gradually turn our back on Him.  "Do not be deceived: “Evil company corrupts good habits.” 1 Corinthians 15:33.

Adam walked with God but sinned.  He got separated from God, according to the book of Genesis in the bible.

Couppy

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So do you think those who are saved are kept from temptation, the world and the devil by themselves and their own volition . Michael the archangel could not wrestle with satan, so how can we.  We are made righteous by Christ righteousness, not of our own.   We are born again, that speaks volume, you have been brought to see the truth of the world that we live and the spiritual realm that exists. Lies has been exposed and one cannot go back to the carnal world. It is not that we don't and cannot sin anymore, we still live in this fallen world with all the pitfalls set before, but the faith and will to press on has  been established at our salvation and we christians have become Daniels, willing to face Lions even unto death.

 Edit.... Actually, Micheal did wrestle with satan.  My statement was to show, even angels wrestle with the prince of darkness.

Edited by warrior12
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On 9/10/2017 at 10:16 PM, BobRyan said:

Here is what "scripture clearly teaches"

Fallen from grace, severed from Christ - Galatians 5:1-4 " You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace "

Forgiveness revoked: Matthew 18: 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Disqualified from the Gospel : 1 Cor 9:23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you. 24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Stand by Faith yet fear being cut off from Christ: Romans 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again
 

Do not be deceived into believing OSAS 1 Cor 6:Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified

Preferences are "nice" and everyone has them... but I prefer actual scripture for doctrine.

 

OSAS does not survive a close review of scripture

4 hours ago, warrior12 said:

So do you think those who are saved are kept from temptation, the world and the devil by themselves and their own volition . Michael the archangel could not wrestle with satan, so how can we.


The text does not say "by themselves and their own volition" - but it does point to very real warnings against the saved becoming "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace"

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25 minutes ago, BobRyan said:


The text does not say "by themselves and their own volition" - but it does point to very real warnings against the saved becoming "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace"

The  OSAS phrase or terminology is used in a way as to portray a believer that he can live a ungodly life and still be entitled to inherit the kingdom.  Thus the reason i don't even use the phrase.   I  rather say that the Lord has shown his mercy upon you and you accepted what he has done for you and now see the world differently from the carnal man.  Once you have seen that world, essentially the veil that once had you blinded and has now been removed or lifted, then you cannot go back to what is revealed in the truths of the Bible.  Your personal experience also of the spiritual realm whatever it may be will confirm things too and you would be kept in the truth to persevere  and run the race.  

 

Jude 24King James Version (KJV)

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

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1 hour ago, warrior12 said:

The  OSAS phrase or terminology is used in a way as to portray a believer that he can live a ungodly life and still be entitled to inherit the kingdom.  Thus the reason i don't even use the phrase.   I  rather say that the Lord has shown his mercy upon you and you accepted what he has done for you and now see the world differently from the carnal man.  Once you have seen that world, essentially the veil that once had you blinded and has now been removed or lifted, then you cannot go back to what is revealed in the truths of the Bible.  Your personal experience also of the spiritual realm whatever it may be will confirm things too and you would be kept in the truth to persevere  and run the race.  

 

Jude 24King James Version (KJV)

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

3 and 5 point Calvinists have a similar view of OSAS as the one you describe yourself as having - so I don't think that is so much confusion that those of us who oppose OSAS do not know about that particular version.

There is a 4 point Calvinist and a Baptist-Arminian form of OSAS that is the first one you brought up.

The two main problems with the version you are using are these:

1. I have given a number of texts warning against the loss of salvation -- and all versions of OSAS essentially claim that the warning is about a scenario that is impossible to ever occur at all. And there is no Bible basis for arguing that God gives warnings against things that cannot happen So no warnings in the Bible against flying so high in the air that you burn yourself on the sun. A total impossibility.

2. The other problem with the view you hold is that one a person is saved and then lost and then stops to reconsider supposing that maybe repentance and being "renewed again" (as we see in Romans 11) ... they are caught up short with the old "renewed again to what? all those years you thought you were saved are now called being-lost because of where you have been this last month in your walk with God".

Edited by BobRyan
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6 hours ago, BobRyan said:

3 and 5 point Calvinists have a similar view of OSAS as the one you describe yourself as having - so I don't think that is so much confusion that those of us who oppose OSAS do not know about that particular version.

There is a 4 point Calvinist and a Baptist-Arminian form of OSAS that is the first one you brought up.

The two main problems with the version you are using are these:

1. I have given a number of texts warning against the loss of salvation -- and all versions of OSAS essentially claim that the warning is about a scenario that is impossible to ever occur at all. And there is no Bible basis for arguing that God gives warnings against things that cannot happen So no warnings in the Bible against flying so high in the air that you burn yourself on the sun. A total impossibility.

2. The other problem with the view you hold is that one a person is saved and then lost and then stops to reconsider supposing that maybe repentance and being "renewed again" (as we see in Romans 11) ... they are caught up short with the old "renewed again to what? all those years you thought you were saved are now called being-lost because of where you have been this last month in your walk with God".

Here is my point.  I do not get into clavinism and its theology.    Scripture says  that do not be alarmed by the fiery trials that would come upon you to  test your faith.  A believer would experience the fiery trials in whatever manner the Lord would send his way.  Through those encounters he would see the works of the devil and it is in a way the Lord is building up his endurance to run the race.   The Lord knows we have to face terrible foes here and tell me which one can stand against the enemy on his own.   I don't know of a man's salvation, that is between him and his maker, so to say he has lost it is not for me to question too, that is also  his to know.   There are many who say they are saved but how is one assured of his salvation. Is there not a proof of it.   What did Paul say. 

1 Peter 4

12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

 

The christian still have these attibutes and struggles.

Romans 7King James Version (KJV)

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Edited by warrior12
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Complete repentance is required and to love the lord your God wholehearted. 

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