Tongues

[enoob57]

6 minutes ago, charisenexcelsis said:

If Paul commands us not to forbid, then we must deal with the problems without discouraging the practice.

I thought this should be given separate treatment... in the context of the quote above:

1 Cor 14:39-40

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
KJV

The need for contextualizing is 'the importance' for anything- for out of context is something other not intended by 'The Writ'...
The number one point of reason is- the New Testament canon was being formed >yet was not complete yet< thus the construct of the canon was in transition O.T. Law to N.T. Grace...
The Holy Spirit was nurturing these Sons and Daughters without the completed canon and this is a distinct reasoning point for not making transitional realities the norm for those who will have the completed canon... thus fulfilling the intent of God in His leading of us

2 Tim 3:15-17

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
KJV

as Paul carried with Him the half, or over if Hebrews was His, of N.T. Scripture to be written and there was an indication they knew what they were writing was such

2 Peter 3:15-16

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
KJV

So there is much evidence the purpose of tongues at that time was The Spirit of Christ was leveling the field in this transitional time period of writings ... most assuredly the comment of the 2nd Timothy passage leaves no doubt in the sufficiency of Scripture today!

 

[missmuffet]

2 hours ago, charisenexcelsis said:

The moment that we begin to say that we need not follow "outdated" instruction in scripture, we cease to believe in scripture at all.

You can continue to use tongues but I do not support tongues at this time. 

[missmuffet]

9 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

What does that sentence mean?

Question: "What does it mean that tongues will cease?"

Answer: First Corinthians 13:8–10: “Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.” In the KJV, the tongues “will cease.” In other words, at some point after Paul wrote 1 Corinthians, the gift of tongues would no longer be in use.

First Corinthians 12–14 is all about the proper use of spiritual gifts. Paul writes to the Corinthian church to correct the improper use of some gifts and the improper emphasis they put on certain of the more “spectacular” gifts. Right in the middle of his discussion, he speaks about the superior quality of love. Even though the Corinthian church was very gifted, they were not using their gifts in love for each other. Paul goes on to say that all of the various gifts will one day cease to function, but love will never fail. The question that many struggle with is just when these gifts will cease. Paul gives the answer in the text: “when completeness comes” (1 Corinthians 13:10).

The next question, of course, is what is the “completeness” or “the perfect” (NASB)? Essentially, there are two views:

One view, often called the “cessationist” view, is that the sign gifts were only in operation during the apostolic era to give special revelation until the completion of the New Testament. Before early Christians had the whole New Testament, they had to rely on words of knowledge, prophecy, and tongues to give them the full revelation of God. Once the church had possession of the full New Testament (the completeness), these gifts faded away as unnecessary. Faith, hope, and love continue to be in operation.

Often, the cessationist view will point out that the words used for the cessation of knowledge and prophecy are in the passive voice, indicating that they will be stopped by an outside force. However, the verb used for the cessation of tongues is in the middle voice, which indicates that they will cease “of themselves.” This is usually seen as further proof that tongues were temporary and would eventually pass away on their own. Regardless of the strength of this argument, the grammatical analysis leaves something out. Some verbs normally take the middle voice, and the verb translated “be stilled” in the NIV is one of them; therefore, there is no particular significance to the change from passive to middle voice in this passage. In Luke 8:24 the storm is “stilled” (same word and voice); however, it is clear that Jesus actively stilled the storm.

Cessationists also point out that, if tongues, prophecy, and knowledge continue, this continuing revelation would in effect be adding to Scripture. However, most continuationists (who hold to the current exercise of these gifts) do not view their revelations as being on par with Scripture but more like the “leading of the Spirit.” Many cessationists feel God led them to do something or “told” them to do something. They would maintain that this was some sort of communication from God but would never place it on par with Scripture.

The other primary view is that the “completeness” is the eternal state. At that time there will be no more need for the miraculous gifts such as tongues because we will know everything fully. This view points to verse 12 as further describing the “completeness”: “For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” This can hardly refer to the completion of the New Testament canon. Paul’s point seems to be that tongues, prophecy, and words of knowledge will be unnecessary when we enter the eternal state.

The continuationist position does not preclude the possibility that the need for the more miraculous gifts might ebb and flow according to the need or wane with the completion of the canon; rather, it simply does not clearly state that these gifts will stop when the canon is complete. There are good historical and theological arguments for the cessationist position, but they are not necessarily supported by 1 Corinthians 13:8. Likewise, the verse cannot be used as an endorsement of any and all claims of continuationists today. Paul spends three chapters on the misuse of the sign gifts, and many of the same abuses are committed today by those who claim to exercise tongues.

https://www.gotquestions.org/tongues-will-cease.html

Edited February 10, 2020 by missmuffet

[Neighbor]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

when completeness comes

Well actually not missmuffet sid:, but Got Questions the faceless editorial board opinion on the Bible group think tank.

I guess completeness must have  come for some??? Or as complete as things are going to be for them? - A rhetorical question to a faceless editorial board.

Personally I still have to rely  on the intercession of the Holy  Spirit, especially when I can find no words with which to articulate "completely" my  own prayers. Should that  involve the spirit groning or uttering thta which i do not understand then I must I guess trust in the Holy Spirit. Doesn't now seem like that is all that risky, as it once did to me.

[1to3]

The gift of tongues has not ceased, the gift of healing has not ceased, the deliverance from evil spirits has not ceased.

Many Christians never address their unique soul damage that became damaged through sin/trauma from an early age to adulthood, and the evil spirits such as depression, anger, fear, addictions, food, alcohol, nicotine/drugs, that got into their soul from such soul damage/trauma. God can heal, deliver all , if only He were thought.

Hosea 4:6 5You will stumble by day, and the prophet will stumble with you by night. So I will destroy your mother— 6My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you as My priests. Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I will also forget your children. 7The more they multiplied, the more they sinned against Me; they exchanged their Glory for a thing of disgrace.…

Luke 9 9 One day Jesus called together his twelve disciples and gave them power and authority to cast out all demons and to heal all diseases. ² Then he sent them out to tell everyone about the Kingdom of God and to heal the sick.

Mark 3:15

  and to have authority to cast out the demons.

Matthew 10:1

  Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.

Mark 6:7

  And He summoned the twelve and began to send them out in pairs, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits;

 

Mark 16:15 Christ Jesus said: 15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

1 Corinthians 4:7
For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

John 14:12-14 christ jesus said:

^{2 "}Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. ¹³ And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. ¹⁴ You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."

Paul spoke of speaking in tongues probable more than any -1 Corinthians 14:18- but he never said we not pray in tongues, but that to do so privately was prayer to God.

  1Corinthians 14:2 says, “For he who speaks in a ‘tongue’ addresses God, not man; no one understands him; he is talking of divine secrets in the Spirit”. Here, Paul is talking about the individual Spirit-filled believer employing the use of tongues in his prayer life. Through speaking in tongues, you can pray out the plan of God for your life by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Tongues are also used as a means of spiritual edification. 1Corinthians 14:4 says, “He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself.” The word edifieth means “to build up.” Verse 14 in the Amplified Bible Classic reads, “My spirit [by the Holy Spirit within me] prays, but my mind is unproductive.” Speaking in tongues isn’t mental edification; it is spiritual edification.

For believers who are filled with the Holy Spirit, tongues are used in their worship and devotion to God. The Bible says in Acts 10:46 concerning Cornelius and his household when they began to speak with tongues, “For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.” Speaking with tongues is a supernatural way to magnify God.

1 Corinthians 14: 14,15 :For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful   What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. 

Jude 1:20  But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,

Romans 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Ephesians 6:18

¹⁸ praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints

 

Edited February 10, 2020 by 1to3

[Resurrection Priest]

14 hours ago, charisenexcelsis said:

Apparently, Paul was not a cessationist. If Paul taught the church concerning the various gifts of the Spirit, and if his writings are included in the canon, and if he commanded that we not forbid the speaking in tongues, then the matter is settled.

But you must explain what Paul meant by "speaking in tongues".  Did Paul "not forbid" speaking gibberish that no one - not even the speaker, could understand?  Or did Paul "not forbid" speaking real foreign languages that would "edify the church" by winning new converts. 

Friend of mine is a former Pentecostal, who used to speak "in tongues" quite often.  She has told me that this speaking was always accompanied by feelings of peace and closeness with God.  She sought out that feeling - that experience, more and more.  But she began to sense that all was not right.  She realized that she was neglecting real Bible study, and preferred the feeling experience.  She finally came to see that her feeling experience was not coming from the LORD.  It was coming from another source - from the Enemy. 

She has renounced all gibberish tongues speaking.  The Enemy was using her tongues speaking, as "grounds" to harass her mind in other ways.  Once she renounced the tongues, she was able to find freedom from evil spirit harassment.   She was also able to study her Bible with a clear mind. 

[JoeMo]

6 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

She has renounced all gibberish tongues speaking.  The Enemy was using her tongues speaking, as "grounds" to harass her mind in other ways.  Once she renounced the tongues, she was able to find freedom from evil spirit harassment.   She was also able to study her Bible with a clear mind.

When I got upset at the church I used to belong to, I joined a Charismatic church where many of the members spoke in "tongues".  I actually received this "gift" and had the same experience that RP mentioned.  At first it was great! I would drive to work using and "perfecting" my new "gift"! It was very soothing and invigorating at the same time.  I had no idea what I was saying, but it made me feel good - for a while.  I started worrying about what I might actually be saying.  What If I was actually cursing God instead of praising Him?  I had no idea what I was saying; so how could I know if I was praising Him?

I researched what I considered to be the "true" gift of tongues.  In Acts, in seems that the true gift of tongues in people hearing in their own language rather speaking gibberish.  Paul also implies that tongues is the least of the spiritual gifts rather than the greatest.  It only edified me (i.e., made me feel better); and made those around me uncomfortable unless the shred the gift.

I stopped using it about a year ago; and feel better for it. I also joined a traditional church that teaches the WHOLE Bible rather than just the warm fuzzy stuff.

[frienduff thaylorde]

1 hour ago, maryjayne said:

So, when people are talking in tongues these days, where is it coming from? The devil? 

It can't come from the Holy Spirit if that gift has ceased. Have all the other gifts ceased? If not, why just tongues?

GOOD QUESTION SISTER .     By grace I spoke once with tongues on my initial baptism of the Holy Ghost .  never have since .    But here is the real kicker .

I got one who flat out said it was by the devil .       Yes they adorn and wear the doctrine of mc arthrur their almighty .     YET 

Remember when BY THE HOLY GHOST JESUS was casting out demons and they said HE was casting out demons BY THE DEVIL .   WHAT DID JESUS tell them .

WHO had blasphemed the work of the SPIRIT as though it were of satan .  EXACTLY .     I refuse to hear one word any cessasionist teacher has to say and they endanger their flocks big time . 

[Resurrection Priest]

I was teaching a group one day, not all of whom I knew personally.  A woman in the front row asked a question.  I had my answer formulated in my mind, and began to answer.  I heard different words coming from my mount, that had not gone through my brain first.  Must admit.  It rather shocked me.  I was hearing the perfect answer to her question.  One I had not thought of.  The LORD was just using my vocal apparatus to give all of us that answer. 

Can I count that as speaking with tongues.  I think so.  

[JoeMo]

27 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

I refuse to hear one word any cessasionist teacher has to say and they endanger their flocks big time . 

I agree, the gifts of God will continue until they are no longer needed - in the Millennium.  All of the gifts mentioned in 1 Cor. 12 are still active today.  Unfortunately, the evil one has a counterfeit gift to match each real gift that Paul mentions.

Concerning tongues, I was helping at a bilingual evangelistic meeting by trying to pass out earphones to people who wanted to hear the message in Spanish.  The people I tried to give them to turned them down, because the message I was hearing in perfect English they were in perfect Spanish!  THAT was the true gift on tongues IMHO!

Concerning healing, once we were praying over an older gentleman who had fallen off his bike and hit his head, compressing several discs in his neck.  All of a sudden, he cried out in pain and told us to take our hands off of him.  His upper back and neck appeared to be in serious spasms! He finally settled down; and was amazed at how much better he felt - he was healed!

Yes - the gifts of the spirit are still alive and well among those who believe!