Fall of man.

[Robert William]

18 hours ago, Robert William said:

What is total depravity and is it biblical?

 

by Matt Slick
10/01/14

Total Depravity, sometimes called "total inability," is one of the five points of Calvinism, and is the "T" in the acronym TULIP1. Total Depravity states that each and every person (except Jesus, 1 Peter 2:22) is completely touched by sin in all that he is and does whether it's heart, soul, mind, body, thought, or deed. However, this does not mean that all people are equally bad or that all people are as bad as they can be. Not all are murderers. Not all are adulterers. Not all cheat. 

• "By total depravity, is not meant that all men are equally wicked; nor that any man is as thoroughly corrupt as it is possible for a man to be; nor that men are destitute of all moral virtues. The Scriptures recognize the fact, which experience abundantly confirms, that men, to a greater or less degree, are honest in dealings, kind in their feelings, and beneficent in their conduct. Even the heathen, the Apostle teaches us, do by nature the things of the law. They are more or less under the dominion of conscience, which approves or disapproves their moral conduct. All this is perfectly consistent with the Scriptural doctrine of total depravity, which includes the entire absence of holiness; the want of due apprehensions of the divine perfections, and of our relation to God as our Creator, Preserver, Benefactor, Governor, and Redeemer," 2
• "Total Depravity, The view, characteristic in Reformed theology, that sinfulness pervades all areas of life or the totality of human existence. This belief was one of the five canons of the Calvinistic Synod of Dort (1618– 19) and part of TULIP,"3

Can unbelievers do anything good at all?

The doctrine of Total Depravity does not state that unbelievers do not do good in any sense. We know that non-Christians can be morally upright in that some do not lie, do not steal, do not murder, etc. This is because the Scriptures teach that the Law is written on their hearts.

• "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus," (Romans 2:14-16).

So, again, Total Depravity does not mean that a person is as bad as he can be. It means that he is completely touched by sin in all that he is and does.

Effect of Total Depravity

The effect of Total Depravity on a person is his total inability to freely choose to come to Christ, trust in his Lordship, and be delivered from his sins. The unregenerate person is free to choose to do whatever he desires to do, but he will choose to act in a manner that is consistent with his sinful, fallen nature. In other words, no unbeliever left to his sinful free will, will ever choose to become a Christian. This is why there are verses in the Bible that state it is God who appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4), calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9), chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14), grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29), grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26), causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3), draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65), predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30) and adoption (Eph. 1:5) according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11), makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13), and works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29).

Verses used to support Total Depravity

There are numerous Scriptures used by Calvinists to support the doctrine of Total Depravity. Following are some of them.

• Jeremiah 17:9, "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick. Who can understand it?
• Mark 7:21-23, "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."
• John 3:19, "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil."
• Romans 3:10-12, "as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one; 11 There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one."
• Romans 5:6, "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly."
• Romans 6:16-20, "Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
• Ephesians 2:1, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins."
• Ephesians 2:3, "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."
• 1 Corinthians 2:14, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

We can see from these verses that the heart is wicked and full of evil, that people do not understand and do no good, are helpless slaves of sin, dead in their sins, by nature children of wrath, and cannot receive spiritual things. Therefore, the unbeliever will freely choose to do what is consistent with his sinful nature. He will choose to behave in a sinful manner.

 

"For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus," (Romans 2:14-16

This is the perfect example of not reading the Letter as a whole.   paul was talking about gentiles WHO HAD COME TO CHRIST and were doing the law written on their hearts.

just read down a few lines .   this is the perfect example of how people misteach things.

Gentiles who do not know Christ cannot do the things from their heart of the law.   everyone read the whole of the letter and you willl

see that in the next few lines it explains this .   Paul was talking about gentiles who knew the LORD.   ONLY GOD< ONLY CHRIST , ONLY THE SPIRIT

puts the law on our hearts.  that alone.    This is why so many teachers are in error today.  they pick certain parts to fix THIER BELIEF, instead of reading

it as a whole and letting the truth do the revealing . 

[SavedOnebyGrace]

1 hour ago, Robert William said:

"For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus," (Romans 2:14-16

This is the perfect example of not reading the Letter as a whole.   paul was talking about gentiles WHO HAD COME TO CHRIST and were doing the law written on their hearts.

just read down a few lines .   this is the perfect example of how people misteach things.

Gentiles who do not know Christ cannot do the things from their heart of the law.   everyone read the whole of the letter and you willl

see that in the next few lines it explains this .   Paul was talking about gentiles who knew the LORD.   ONLY GOD< ONLY CHRIST , ONLY THE SPIRIT

puts the law on our hearts.  that alone.    This is why so many teachers are in error today.  they pick certain parts to fix THIER BELIEF, instead of reading

it as a whole and letting the truth do the revealing . 

As a former Calvinist, I have no problem with the "T" in T U L I P as the reformed folks understand it.  If we could escape Total Depravity, then Jesus' death on the cross was unnecessary.  We are saved by grace, not by works so that no one can take anything away from what Jesus did for us.

[Robert William]

1 minute ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

As a former Calvinist, I have no problem with the "T" in T U L I P as the reformed folks understand it.  If we could escape Total Depravity, then Jesus' death on the cross was unnecessary.  We are saved by grace, not by works so that no one can take anything away from what Jesus did for us.

Hey bro, if you believe in the T then you must believe in the L.

[Unfailing Presence]

" depravity "  is   , biblically speaking ,  a heart that is  " desperately wicked "   &  "exceedingly deceitful " 

It has been said  , and is  a truth I believe ,  that every person knows that about themselves which they would never , ever tell  of to another human being . 

Edited September 12, 2017 by Unfailing Presence

[SavedOnebyGrace]

20 minutes ago, Robert William said:

Hey bro, if you believe in the T then you must believe in the L.

The "L" (Limited Atonement) is much more complicated and where many Christians have a problem with Reformed Theology.  It has everything to do with a lack of understanding of the nature (for lack of a better term) of YHWH, God.  God doesn't experience time the way we do.  God is, and can move in and out of space/time because He is not bound by His own creation.  Jesus' sacrifice was enough to save everyone by His grace and mercy, but He doesn't force His grace upon us.  He gave us the same free will that He gave Adam, and like Adam, we failed.  His death and resurrection was enough to save everyone.  So it is not limited by God.  It seems limited by us because not everyone accepts the free gift of eternity with God.  We blame God when someone rejects Him, but it is their choice.  God knows who will accept His free gift of salvation before we even existed.  But it is still offered.

Consider Job.  Job was blessed by God.  God bragged to Lucifer about His servant Job, and Lucifer started a series of tests for Job as God allowed.  And each test, Job passed and did not curse God.  In all these things Job did not sin.  Lucifer would not have requested these tests unless Lucifer knew Job had free will.  God knew Job had free will but God also knew the end of the tests before the beginning.  Lucifer is bound in space/time but God is not.  I hope this makes some sense to you.  The Holy Spirit gave me this and turned me from a Calvinist to a non-Denominational Christian and believer in free will.

[missmuffet]

Question: "Total depravity - is it biblical?"

Answer: Total depravity is a phrase or name that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. It is the “T” in the acronym TULIP, which is commonly used to enumerate what are known as the five points of Calvinism or the doctrines of grace. Because the name “total depravity” can cause people to have wrong ideas about what is meant, some people prefer to use terms like “total inability,” “righteous incapability,” “radical corruption” or even “moral inability.” Yet what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. No matter which name you use to refer to “total depravity,” the fact remains that when properly understood it is an accurate description of what the Bible does teach on this important subject.

While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature. Or, as Jesus says, “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17-18).

The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore, men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” (Romans 8:7).

The Apostle Paul summarizes the total depravity of man in Romans 3:9-18. He begins this passage by saying that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.” Simply put, this means that man is under the control of sin or is controlled by his sin nature (his natural tendency to sin). The fact that unregenerate people are controlled by their selfish, sinful tendencies should not come as a surprise to any parent. What parent has to teach his or her child to be selfish, to covet what someone else has or to lie? Those actions come naturally from the child’s sin nature. Instead, the parent must devote much time to teaching the child the importance of telling the truth, of sharing instead of being selfish, of obeying instead of rebelling, etc.

Then in the rest of this passage Paul quotes extensively from the Old Testament in explaining how sinful man really is. For example, we see that 1—no one is without sin, 2—no one seeks after God, 3—there is no one who is good, 4—their speech is corrupted by sin, 5—their actions are corrupted by sin, and 6—above all, they have no fear of God. So, when one considers even these few verses, it becomes abundantly clear the Bible does indeed teach that fallen man is “totally depraved,” because sin affects all of him including his mind, will and emotions so that “there is none who does good, no not one” (Romans 3:12).

There is a common misconception regarding total depravity. Total depravity does not mean that man is as wicked or sinful as he could be, nor does it mean that man is without a conscience or any sense of right or wrong. Neither does it mean that man does not or cannot do things that seem to be good when viewed from a human perspective or measured against a human standard. It does not even mean that man cannot do things that seem to conform outwardly to the law of God. What the Bible does teach and what total depravity does recognize is that even the “good” things man does are tainted by sin because they are not done for the glory of God and out of faith in Him (Romans 14:23; Hebrews 11:6). While man looks upon the outward acts and judges them to be good, God looks upon not only the outward acts but also the inward motives that lie behind them, and because they proceed from a heart that is in rebellion against Him and they are not done for His glory, even these good deeds are like “filthy rags” in His sight. In other words, fallen man’s good deeds are motivated not by a desire to please God but by our own self-interest and are thus corrupted to the point where God declares that there is “no one who does good, no not one!”

Since Scripture is very clear that all of man is affected by sin and so much so that “no one seeks after God,” then how can anyone possibly become a Christian? The answer is that God must overcome man’s depravity in such a way that man is able to recognize his spiritual state and his hopeless condition apart from the grace of God. Man’s spiritually blind eyes must be open and the bondage of sin that renders him hopelessly enslaved must be broken so that he can respond in faith to the gospel message and the atoning work of Christ on the cross. Some Christians believe that God accomplishes this through some type of universal grace whereby God brings man to a condition where he has the ability to choose or reject Him. Others believe that for a man who is “dead in trespasses and sins” to be able to understand and respond to the gospel in faith, he must first be born again or regenerated by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3). It is only after God infuses spiritual life into a dead sinner that he can “see the kingdom of God.” Those that hold this view see this as being a sovereign act of God, whereby men are born again “not of the blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:12-13).

However, even when the doctrine of total depravity is properly understood, many people will reject the doctrine, but that fact should not surprise us, since the world generally thinks of man as being basically good. Therefore, the idea that man by nature is a depraved sinner runs contrary to most modern religious, psychological and philosophical views of the basic nature of man. But the fact is that the Bible does teach the depravity of the human heart, and the root cause of man’s problem is not the environment he is raised in but his wicked and selfish heart. Properly understood, the doctrine of total depravity will destroy the hopes of those who place their faith in any type of works-based system of salvation and will recognize that God’s sovereign grace is man’s only hope. While the doctrine of total depravity destroys man’s self-righteousness and any misconceptions about man’s ability to be saved through his own free will, it leaves one asking the same question the disciples asked of Jesus in Matthew 19:25-26: “Then who can be saved?” Of course the answer remains the same: “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:25-26).

As the first of the five doctrines of what is called “Calvinism,” the doctrine of total depravity correctly focuses man’s attention on the rest of these “doctrines of grace” which declare the wondrous work of God in the salvation of sinners.

https://www.gotquestions.org/total-depravity.html

[Unfailing Presence]

1 hour ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

The "L" (Limited Atonement) is much more complicated and where many Christians have a problem with Reformed Theology.  

So what is the proposed everyday practical application of this " Theology " for the life reborn & rejuvenated by the power Christ's redeeming love as they go forth each morning 

gaining new glimpses and experiencing new glories in the fadeless beauty of Christian character ?

[SavedOnebyGrace]

14 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

I've already tried to explain this to him, although your explanation was much better than mine, but he's not buying.

Having been a Calvinist at one time, we can be quite stubborn on the subject as if we (my former self) were denying God's sovereignty if we don't adhere to T-U-L-I-P in total!  If he didn't believe you, he's not going to believe me either.  But unknowingly, you may have planted the seed for others to reap the harvest.  Who knows how many people you helped without knowing it, just by your calm, logical and most importantly, Biblical responses to all the questions that come up.  God bless you.

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Seeing someone respond "there is no free will" tells me everything I need to know.  At that point, I am no longer actually engaged with the person stuck with opinions like that, like you, I am composing the responses for to others that might read the thread so that, hopefully, they do not make the same mistakes.

Isn't that why born again Christians are on a Christian message board. To post the truth and try to bring attention to false doctrine?

[missmuffet]

38 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Yes, but the people pushing the false doctrine never get the point.

But their minds and eyes have digested the words. The choice is theirs.