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MEANING OF THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION


TheBride123

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The biggest problem I see is that people often immediately think the Immaculate Conception is Jesus, but the Immaculate Conception refers to the Madonna, Mary the Virgin's birth to the Virgin Anne (according to Roman Catholic Church). Most Protestants like myself thought the Immaculate Conception was referring to Jesus' miraculous conception (Luke 1:26-38), but that is not what Immaculate Conception means, it is a specific Roman Catholic belief along with their belief that Mary is Redeematrix/Co-Redeemer (Catholic Catechism, pgs 900-998), and  the Theotokios (God bearer, and mother to pray to). The problem is that this egg of doctrine cannot be split. While I believe Mary was devout Jewish virgin and handmaiden of the LORD, I believe she was sinner like all of us, and that the Trinity chose her an imperfect vessel, just as Hagar Harlot is in Jesus' line (Matthew 1:1, Luke 1:1), so that Jesus could be tempted in everyway but not sin (Hebrews 4:15). 

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On 9/27/2017 at 12:58 AM, Fidei Defensor said:

The Immaculate Conception is the belief Mary was born of a virgin too who's name was St. Anne. There is no scriptural evidence of this event, nor of St. Anne. 

Mary the Virgin was handmaiden of the LORD, but not without sin, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (Romans 3:23), "If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts," (1 John 1:8-9).

Mary herself said this in her song, "And Mary said, My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior [σωτήρ, ῆρος, ὁ, sótér/so-tare'Noun, Masculine, savior, deliverer, preserver, sōtḗr (a masculine noun, derived from 4982 /sṓzō, "save") – properly, the Savior, Jesus Christ who saves believers from their sins and delivers them into His safety. (sōzō). sōtḗr ("Savior") is the root of the theological term, sotierology ("the study of salvation through Christ"). This term is also spelled "soteriology," but with the same meaning.], for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant." (Luke 1:46-48). Why would Mary say her spirit rejoices in God her Savior if she was perfect? A sinner needs a savior, not a perfect sinless person. 

The only sinless person is Jesus Christ who is God (Colossians 2:9, John 1:1-15, John 10:30, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:-14), and is a Man (1 John 4:1-3, John 1:14, 2 John 1:7), and is the Son of God (John 6:40, 1 John 4:15). For it was Jesus who tempted in everyway but did not sin, "14Therefore, since we have such a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess, For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet he did not sin," (Hebrews 4:14-15), "Such a high priest truly befits us--One who is holy, innocent, undefiled, set apart from sinners, and exalted above the heavens," (Hebrews 7:26), "Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And after fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.” But he answered, “It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God, Then the devil took him to the holy city and set him on the pinnacle of the temple and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, He will command his angels concerning you, and, On their hands they will bear you up, Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’” Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written. You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve, lest you strike your foot against a stone, Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and were ministering to him." (Matthew 4:1-11). Only Jesus Christ was perfect and sinless.  

The Immaculate conception as you have conveyed it is not as I conveyed it. You are Lutheran from what I gather from your  post. I agree with Martin Luther's stand against the RCC concerning indulgences. I do not agree on his works concerning Jews stating: Their homes and synagogues should be destroyed and their money confiscated and( liberty curtailed)-( SURPRISINGLY what I experience in this forum). I know many of his followers reject this antisemitism. But he still taught this and believed it. Which sounds a lot like the RCC and what it did in history  when people disagree with its heads. And will do in the future.

He is right that it is only through grace given by God that man is saved. Romans 11:6- all of Romans should be read. Some of what he believed is untrue though . And this speaks to the possible  fallibility of his teaching's, therefore all of it should be sifted through and revisited by those who follow his denomination.

I do not believe in the Infallibility of the Popes either. I also believe 1 Corinthians 7 concerning marriage and celibacy is very clear. It is a suggestion by St. Paul to remain as he (unmarried) not a command from God. But it is good to remain unmarried, if you desire and can. I do not disagree with Luther concerning clergy being married. Marriage in God and celibacy in God are both good! I am non denominational. I believe in the history of Christianity and I do not believe it is a denomination. The body of Christ is non denominational. I do not believe every Catholic is a liar and heretic. I believe there are people of faith in all denominations.  Where did the concept of immaculate conception come from? And based on that we should start our debate and discussion to prove whether it is factual or not. It has to be looked at. As a non" denominational forum "( which I do not believe), we as seekers should be able to explore all denominational beliefs and test the spirits. 1 John 4. This means without bias and preconceived notions. Dare I say "HONEST JUDGEMENT". This forum censors what it does not understand, it hides true dialogue taking place and misinterprets my post.  The song of Mary is very clear! She said her soul rejoices in GOD HER SAVIOUR. You are elaborating on what I said. So the argument which remains is- meaning of Immaculate Conception. If you wish to go there openly with me I would be delighted. And I, humbly before God will explain. For I am not indoctrinated. I would also, be happy to address John Calvin's lack of understanding of dialogue between Yeshua and Miriam -(this to the blessing of the end time church. ) Can sincere discussion and debate take place?, with the end goal being not a denomination prevailing but truth? For I believe  there is truth in all christian denominations and fallibility. But the body of Christ is infallible, whose head is Christ.

Edited by TheBride123
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On 10/2/2017 at 11:14 AM, TheBride123 said:

The Immaculate conception as you have conveyed it is not as I conveyed it. You are Lutheran from what I gather from your  post. I agree with Martin Luther's stand against the RCC concerning indulgences. I do not agree on his works concerning Jews stating: Their homes and synagogues should be destroyed and their money confiscated and( liberty curtailed)-( SURPRISINGLY what I experience in this forum). I know many of his followers reject this antisemitism. But he still taught this and believed it. Which so.

He is right that it is only through grace g history of Christianity, I do not believe it is a denomination. The body of Christ is non denominational. I do not believe every Catholic is a liar and heretic. I believe there are people of faith in all denominations.  Where did the concept of immaculate conception come from? And based on that we should start our debate and discussion to prove whether it is factual or not. It has to be looked at. As a non" denominational forum "( which I do not believe), we as seekers should be able to explore all denominational beliefs and test the spirits. 1 John 4. This means without bias and preconceived notions. Dare I say "HONEST JUDGEMENT". This forum censors what it does not understand, it hides true dialogue taking place and misinterprets my post.  The song of Mary is very clear! She said her soul rejoices in GOD HER SAVIOUR. You are elaborating on what I said. So the argument which remains is-(this to the blessing of the end time church. ) Can sincere discussion and debate take place?, with the end goal being not a denomination. 

I am sorry I had to butcher your post to address some specifics. 

I am not Lutheran. I despise Lutheran compromise to Roman Catholic doctrine regarding Transubstantian (Roman dogma, The Council of Trent) and I do not believe in the Sacros (sacrament) of confession and absolution that the Lutheran proest or pastor stands in for Christ and acts as Vicar of Grace; how is this different than a pope? For there is one mediator between God and Man Jesus Christ. (2 Timothy 2:5)

I believe Jesus is interdenominational and non-denominational. Anyone who believes in Jesus as Lord (God, Col 2:9, Titus 2:13) and Son of God and came in a body is a Christian (John 6:40, John 3:16, 1 John 4:15, Romans 10:9-10, 1 John 4:1-3). 

I believe Catholics believe correctly about the Trinity, but error in trusting in Mary as Theotokios and Redeematrix (co-redeemer) [Catholic Catechism, pgs 900-990]; and their trust in saints as courtiers and intermediaries between God and Catholics, talkimg to dead, and etc. 

I do enjoy learning from my Catholic friends and my Eastern Orthodox studies and from all denominations. I am not on a Thirty Year's War with Catholics; I love them. One Catholic friend of mine staryef reading the Bible and hax changed in countenance and eve said "Christians who read the Bible serm different, they seem full of life and light." (Bernie, head manager at Catholic Mission Store).

For the Record:

I am Protestant in regards to indulgences and Roman Catholic doctrines (I protest Transubstantiation because it is a Council of Trent Roman Catholic doctrine, and I protest Mary being a Redeematrix or co-savior, I protest the Pope and papacy, Christ is the only mediator and etc), I am Spirit filled in regard to the Gifts (1 Corinthians 12:4-11, Acts 8:10-17), I am Baptist or Bible Church in regard to strict adherancr to the Scriptures (Solae Scriptura), and ultimately I am Christian, partisian of Christ, and follower of Jesus Christ who is God (Colossians 2:9, Titus 2:13, John 17:19-20, John 10:30, John 20:20-22), Son of God (1 John 4:15) and came in a body (1 John 4:1-3).

Edited by Fidei Defensor
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6 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

 

I believe Jesus is interdenominational and non-denominational. Anyone who believes in Jesus as Lord (God, Col 2:9, Titus 2:13) and Son of God and came in a body is a Christian (John 6:40, John 3:16, 1 John 4:15, Romans 10:9-10, 1 John 4:1-3). 

I believe Catholics believe correctly about the Trinity, but error in trusting in Mary as Theotokios and Redeematrix (co-redeemer) [Catholic Catechism, pgs 900-990]; and their trust in saints as courtiers and intermediaries between God and Catholics, talkimg to dead, and etc. 

I do enjoy learning from my Catholic friends and my Eastern Orthodox studies and from all denominations. I am not on a Thirty Year's War with Catholics; I love them. One Catholic friend of mine staryef reading the Bible and hax changed in countenance and eve said "Christians who read the Bible serm different, they seem full of life and light." (Bernie, head manager at Catholic Mission Store).

 Christ is the only mediator and etc), I am Spirit filled in regard to the Gifts (1 Corinthians 12:4-11, Acts 8:10-17), I am Baptist or Bible Church in regard to strict adherancr to the Scriptures (Solae Scriptura), and ultimately I am Christian, partisian of Christ, and follower of Jesus Christ who is God (Colossians 2:9, Titus 2:13, John 17:19-20, John 10:30, John 20:20-22), Son of God (1 John 4:15) and came in a body (1 John 4:1-3).

 Thank you for your post. 

PS

I understand that many in the Catholic and Orthodox transition, they follow the family traditions, for the sake of the family and the unity in the family celebrations, and culture. 

One time when they were young they believe, because that what they teach them when they were growing up. 

When they grew older they stopped believing, and they don't hide it. 

But I understand that we are not talking about them, but the many others who kept the faith, whether they still go to church or not. 

And they love to celebrate Easter, the good Friday and the Resure tion Sunday.

The Palm Sunday, and other events from the life of Jesus through out the year.  

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On 10/2/2017 at 1:14 PM, TheBride123 said:

You are Lutheran from what I gather from your  post. I agree with Martin Luther's stand against the RCC concerning indulgences. I do not agree on his works concerning Jews stating: Their homes and synagogues should be destroyed and their money confiscated and( liberty curtailed)

He was still a man and even saved men can still err. Early in his ministry Luther tried to reach out to the Jews with love and respect thinking that would work to bring them over. But when he found that didnt, well, he kind of lost patience with them and got frustrated.

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On 10/4/2017 at 3:41 PM, Fidei Defensor said:

I am sorry I had to butcher your post to address some specifics. 

I am not Lutheran. I despise Lutheran compromise to Roman Catholic doctrine regarding Transubstantian (Roman dogma, The Council of Trent) and I do not believe in the Sacros (sacrament) of confession and absolution that the Lutheran proest or pastor stands in for Christ and acts as Vicar of Grace; how is this different than a pope? For there is one mediator between God and Man Jesus Christ. (2 Timothy 2:5)

I believe Jesus is interdenominational and non-denominational. Anyone who believes in Jesus as Lord (God, Col 2:9, Titus 2:13) and Son of God and came in a body is a Christian (John 6:40, John 3:16, 1 John 4:15, Romans 10:9-10, 1 John 4:1-3). 

I believe Catholics believe correctly about the Trinity, but error in trusting in Mary as Theotokios and Redeematrix (co-redeemer) [Catholic Catechism, pgs 900-990]; and their trust in saints as courtiers and intermediaries between God and Catholics, talkimg to dead, and etc. 

I do enjoy learning from my Catholic friends and my Eastern Orthodox studies and from all denominations. I am not on a Thirty Year's War with Catholics; I love them. One Catholic friend of mine staryef reading the Bible and hax changed in countenance and eve said "Christians who read the Bible serm different, they seem full of life and light." (Bernie, head manager at Catholic Mission Store).

For the Record:

I am Protestant in regards to indulgences and Roman Catholic doctrines (I protest Transubstantiation because it is a Council of Trent Roman Catholic doctrine, and I protest Mary being a Redeematrix or co-savior, I protest the Pope and papacy, Christ is the only mediator and etc), I am Spirit filled in regard to the Gifts (1 Corinthians 12:4-11, Acts 8:10-17), I am Baptist or Bible Church in regard to strict adherancr to the Scriptures (Solae Scriptura), and ultimately I am Christian, partisian of Christ, and follower of Jesus Christ who is God (Colossians 2:9, Titus 2:13, John 17:19-20, John 10:30, John 20:20-22), Son of God (1 John 4:15) and came in a body (1 John 4:1-3).

Yeah, I guess you did butcher this up- like you Protestants butcher up the gospel. I love how you use scripture against scripture when you feel something  does not fit your narrative. Do you think the scripture will implode on itself?Tell me what does this mean John 20:21 Jesus said to them again,  " Peace be with you. As the Father sent me even so I send you." ( Before I go on with scripture what doe "AS" mean in this verse or "EVEN SO" mean?) And when He said this He breathed on them, and said to them , "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any they are retained." You say we are not mediators- and to support your claims you use this scripture against the one I placed 1Timothy 2: 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ,. I have not denied that truth. Yet you use this as an argument against what Christ says in John 20:21. Who are you protesting against? It is very simple . Who are we suppose to be like? Who is the example God gave to man? Obviously he is the only mediator between God and men. And the men he chooses are what?, between man and Himself (Christ)? If you preach the gospel and you believe you have a truth to speak in whose name do you speak it? On whose behalf do you come? What does the word Mediator mean?  Both of us are right! Because both scriptural verse are right!

My understanding is not wrong, I know we are to be as He is. This is attained only through Him though. As for what Protestant sect you are of, matters not, though you did have Martin Luther's picture up on one of your post. Still no difference to your confusion. I find it interesting how everyone here feels I am RC.  I am moderated for responding to verbal attacks by others here? Curious? To have even mentioned Miriam mother of our Lord sent everyone into panic mode. Curious? As to confessing your sins- I believe what James 5:16 says: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. If you confess your sins to a righteous man of God that is no sin- if he forgives you in the name of Christ that is not a sin. Is a RIGHTEOUS man hard to come by these days? Absolutely. I believe then -that this is a personal choice to go to confession to a person who acts like a shepherd to a soul. There is certainly no sin in confessing.  And I believe all desire to confess is a desire to be forgiven and seek out Christ. With that said; I look at the dialogue between Yeshua and Miriam, this account: Luke 2:48-51 , And when they saw Him they were astonished; and His mother said to Him, " Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously." And He said to them, " how is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?" And they did not understand the saying which He spoke to them. And He went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and His Mother kept all these things in her heart.  What does this dialogue reveal? Your John Calvin and many here who ascribe to the belief in the sins of Mary say she sinned.

Is it a sin for a mother to care for her child? Is it a sin to be concerned, especially when people sought to KILL your child for who He is? NO! She was His mother. The dialogue between them was in WISDOM. It is for the BELIEVERS to understand its meaning. For Miriam and Joseph were and are believers. MEANING OF THIS DIALOGUE TO BELIEVERS:  (They did not understand the meaning of the saying which He spoke) this means there is a meaning behind it- as with all dialogue between He and His Mother.  It is a dialogue in WISDOM- Miriam says " Why have you treated us so" What did Yeshua do? He made them look everywhere for Him. That is what believers do. We seek Him everywhere in denominations and in other people. His response, " How is it that you sought Me?" he pointing out they sought for Him everywhere but where? He answers, "Did you not know I must be in My Fathers house?" This- though posed as a question- is an answer. What is His Father's House? What is the vessel of a man? it is the Temple of the Living God! We are to seek the male child within REV.12. How do we do this? Or rather who do we do this with? Who pondered all these things in her heart? Do you believe it was not for her to know? Or is it for her to reveal at the proper time? What did the Sept. 23rd sign mean? What does the Rev.12 prophecy mean? Dare I speak the name of Miriam to you? Trust me I speak not as the RCC speaks but as one given wisdom to understand. This has not been revealed by the RCC. It is for me to reveal to you and others. Do others have the understanding I do? I hope so because this is an awfully big responsibility for one soul.  Continuing with meaning:  Miriam, if she is the Mother of the Head she has to be the Mother of the Body? Do you get this? Think about it? does this mean we are to worship her? No! It does mean we are to venerate her though. What does veneration mean? Where is it in the scripture? It is revealed in Luke 1:39-56. Please have your bible on hand I do not want to do a data dump of so much of information on what is already written.  It is in this encounter that Mary is venerated and praised.  All should venerate her-Meaning of veneration: FROM A DICTIONARY-DEEP, RESPECTFUL LOVE, ADORATION. Miriam is in the woman's court of God. What is the women's court? Now if would read John10:22 It was the Feast of the Dedication at Jerusalem it was winter Yeshua (Jesus) was walking in the temple in the portico of Salomon, this is what was the women's portion of the court,

 better known as Solomon's porch on the east side of the temple. Feel free to look this up.In God's kingdom he has a place for Miriam which her purpose is to nurture the male child of the soul, till the male child reaches maturity and becomes independent of her. Without her nurturing the male child within is stunted in growth.  Protestants say the Rosary is wrong due to the repetition of the words. Can you tell me what words are not biblical? And if you meditate on the scriptures suggested in the Rosary where is the sin? Is there sin in the number of times? I'm sure you have posted the same scripture thousands of times with you rebuttals.

It is in the women's court that Christ is revealed as God, and we are to be like Him. The Jews wanted to stone Him for this. It is in the Woman, Miriam and the court assigned to Her that this is revealed. Those her reject her role are not obedient to God the Father.  Matthew7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord,Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but He who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord' did we not prophesy in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' and then will I declare to them ,'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'

You do not properly understand Rev12. nor do you understand Rev. 22 The tree of Life is Wisdom and wisdom is a she . Read  Proverbs 4. Now who is at God's side at creation and whom did he pour forth on all creation. I am not speaking about the Word , who is the beginning, who was with God and was God. I said beside- at His side.  Read Sirach 1. Now you might be inclined to say:" Wisdom can not be embodied  of a woman." I say why not? Who would have to be by the Lords side on earth as in heaven. Who is full of grace and BLESSED AMONG WOMEN? This means all women RIGHT? Who is the WOMAN of Genesis 3:15 and what is the enmity? The enmity is the HOLY SPIRIT in whom Wisdom dwells. And this , Miriam was filled with at the immaculate conception and Incarnation of Christ. Was the conception of Christ spotless and clean? Was Her flesh made Immaculate in order to carry and rear Christ? Would God the Father place The Messiah in a corrupt vessel? She was immaculately conceived herself when the Holy Spirit came and over shadowed her. She became the living vessel in flesh for Wisdom in full. Hence meaning of FULL OF GRACE. This had to be. For wisdom was at the side of the Word in heaven. Therefore had to be on earth. I can continue to explain- will you get it? Only God knows!

  Now, when given to John at the cross, she was given to the Churches care. John did not worship her but was to care for her and protect her. Not judge and condemn her as a sinner as John Calvin did and many Protestants do. The men of the church are to protect her dignity and respect the graces given to her by God the Father who made her full of grace, Luke 1: 26-38. This is to mans great reward. For Kings are made by her and receive kingdoms the reward of their wisdom, proportioned to them through whom all graces flow. Wisdom bears her fruit 12 months a year. Rev.22. And her leaves are for the healing of the nations. What do leaves reveal? What do leaves tell? Is this a physical tree? Or symbolic of something deeper? Is God placing a common tree above man? Do you talk to trees, do trees respond? NO! The symbolism of the leaves are messages. Leaves tell the changing and coming of a new season. They sing of birth, new life, death and regeneration. That is what Miriam's messages do for the body of Christ. She only Glorifies her son. The fruits she yields are children of Wisdom who reveal the will of Christ. Her role in the church is revealed in the Visitation to Elisabeth. She visits souls. How is it that we too should be highly favored that the Mother of our  Lord should come to visit us. How could the child within us not leap for joy? She says of herself ," from generation to generation all people shall call me blessed. What generations? For their are many who do not call her blessed.Did God the Father fulfill His promise to Abraham in her? Did he not say your seed will number amongst the stars of heaven to Abraham? Was Miriam an ark of the covenant when carrying and caring for Christ? Is Christ the New and Everlasting Covenant? Is an Ark only as Holy as what it carries and presents? Its Holiness is reflective of what is inside. Is Miriam Holy?  Is being in a state of sin  a state of Holiness? So, how can she be holy according to your John Calvin's teachings?  People should only follow scriptural based doctrines.

The RCC church does not teach in this way. Yes Miriam appeared to people in this denomination, they are not of it. For many centuries the RCC was all western civilization had. I do not believe all Catholics were heretics and bad. That is foolishness. She preserved many souls from being corrupted by the false teachers of the Vatican whom she- in her messages always speaks out against.  Do I believe all apparitions ascribed to her by every person who says Miriam (Mary) came to me? NO! I know which ones are true though. I test according to- 1 John 4. And I know the dragon is ever before Her to devour the male child whom she brings forth to our souls. He lies about her and her messages as the Vatican does, he rejects all teaching about her as the Protestants and all its sects do. He is ever present in this sinful world with its devices. Proverbs 8- please read.  Satan is ever before Israel preventing the fullness of the Gospel from  being brought forth, through false religions whom Israel follows and Israel has only given birth to air.  Read now Isaiah chps.26-27. You will then understand the blow to the head which is revealed in Revelation 13. The Beast out of the sea. I know the image of the beast as well. That is for another time. But the blow to head of the beast out of the sea is coming. When this happens the New Church, the New and Best wine ,saved for Last- meaning: for the last days- will teach Israel. This is the mystery of the dialogue at the Wedding Feast at Canaan. Not a dialogue in sin but in Wisdom. I will end there. Praise be to the Lord God Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, of all things seen and unseen.

I do not believe she is co- redemptrix either. Salvation only come through Christ whom she points us towards and nurtures in us and desires to bring forth. Miriam was part of the first church and she is part of the Last- in truth. I see you believe talking to Miriam and the apostles is like talking to the dead? Read Rev.5:6-9. heaven is a Kingdom in which God administers gifts and positions. Any one can see this who reads scripture guided by the Holy Spirit- and the Book of Revelation is full of this understanding. It is time for you to stop thinking with the mind of a child,  I pray God gives you growth. NO ONE IN THE BODY CHRIST DIES. THE SOUL IS ETERNAL. The dead are in hell I do not speak to them.

 

Edited by TheBride123
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2 hours ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

He was still a man and even saved men can still err. Early in his ministry Luther tried to reach out to the Jews with love and respect thinking that would work to bring them over. But when he found that didnt, well, he kind of lost patience with them and got frustrated.

You know not the meaning of being saved. Defend the gospel not mans errors. Christ forgave His enemies and His enemies were the Jews. One does not err, when in the fullness of salvation. When St. Peter fell he got back up and stayed up because he became born again of the spirit. Christ completed His growth and Peter was the rock, as Christ said he would be. Your John Calvin preached nothing but sin- original- the sins of Mary- man is nothing but a sinner. No wonder you defend the errors of men, you can not escape your own sin. John Calvin overlooked the Rite of baptism instituted through John the Baptist for the cleansing away of ORIGINAL SIN and Baptism of the Holy Spirit which Miriam Received to bring forth Christ. Your protestant fathers have warped your mind. John Calvin, over looks the payment on the cross. SIN- SIN-SIN!!!! Where is the act of Salvation? Where is salvation for MAN! Get a grip will you! Martin Luther tried to reach out in love? He failed! He resorted to antisemitism! DEFEND THE WORD NOT THE ERRORS OF MEN!

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19 hours ago, TheBride123 said:

You know not the meaning of being saved. Defend the gospel not mans errors. Christ forgave His enemies and His enemies were the Jews. One does not err, when in the fullness of salvation. When St. Peter fell he got back up and stayed up because he became born again of the spirit. Christ completed His growth and Peter was the rock, as Christ said he would be. Your John Calvin preached nothing but sin- original- the sins of Mary- man is nothing but a sinner. No wonder you defend the errors of men, you can not escape your own sin. John Calvin overlooked the Rite of baptism instituted through John the Baptist for the cleansing away of ORIGINAL SIN and Baptism of the Holy Spirit which Miriam Received to bring forth Christ. Your protestant fathers have warped your mind. John Calvin, over looks the payment on the cross. SIN- SIN-SIN!!!! Where is the act of Salvation? Where is salvation for MAN! Get a grip will you! Martin Luther tried to reach out in love? He failed! He resorted to antisemitism! DEFEND THE WORD NOT THE ERRORS OF MEN!

The Lord rebuke you, Please do not tell me that I dont know the meaning of being saved. Being saved remember makes us FORGIVEN, not perfect. We will ALL err from time to time, the walk along the narrow path is never meant to be easy but occasionally we will struggle. 

Man IS nothing but a sinner, unworthy of salvation. And Mary was just the same. 

Jeremiah 17:9 

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Isaiah 64:6

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses areas filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

1 John 1:8 

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (implying that we still have a sin nature)

 

And Baptism does NOT cleanse us from sin that is a pagan interpretation. Baptism is a symbolic dying to the old man of sin and being reborn a new creation. 

 

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21 hours ago, TheBride123 said:

Yeah, I guess you did butcher this up- like you Protestants butcher up the gospel. I love how you use scripture against scripture when you feel something  does not fit your narrative. Do you think the scripture will implode on itself?Tell me what does this mean John 20:21 Jesus said to them again,  " Peace be with you. As the Father sent me even so I send you." ( Before I go on with scripture what doe "AS" mean in this verse or "EVEN SO" mean?) And when He said this He breathed on them, and said to them , "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any they are retained." You say we are not mediators- and to support your claims you use this scripture against the one I placed 1Timothy 2: 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ,. I have not denied that truth. Yet you use this as an argument against what Christ says in John 20:21. Who are you protesting against? It is very simple . Who are we suppose to be like? Who is the example God gave to man? Obviously he is the only mediator between God and men. And the men he chooses are what?, between man and Himself (Christ)? If you preach the gospel and you believe you have a truth to speak in whose name do you speak it? On whose behalf do you come? What does the word Mediator mean?  Both of us are right! Because both scriptural verse are right!

My understanding is not wrong, I know we are to be as He is. This is attained only through Him though. As for what Protestant sect you are of, matters not, though you did have Martin Luther's picture up on one of your post. Still no difference to your confusion. I find it interesting how everyone here feels I am RC.  I am moderated for responding to verbal attacks by others here? Curious? To have even mentioned Miriam mother of our Lord sent everyone into panic mode. Curious? As to confessing your sins- I believe what James 5:16 says: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. If you confess your sins to a righteous man of God that is no sin- if he forgives you in the name of Christ that is not a sin. Is a RIGHTEOUS man hard to come by these days? Absolutely. I believe then -that this is a personal choice to go to confession to a person who acts like a shepherd to a soul. There is certainly no sin in confessing.  And I believe all desire to confess is a desire to be forgiven and seek out Christ. With that said; I look at the dialogue between Yeshua and Miriam, this account: Luke 2:48-51 , And when they saw Him they were astonished; and His mother said to Him, " Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously." And He said to them, " how is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?" And they did not understand the saying which He spoke to them. And He went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and His Mother kept all these things in her heart.  What does this dialogue reveal? Your John Calvin and many here who ascribe to the belief in the sins of Mary say she sinned.

Is it a sin for a mother to care for her child? Is it a sin to be concerned, especially when people sought to KILL your child for who He is? NO! She was His mother. The dialogue between them was in WISDOM. It is for the BELIEVERS to understand its meaning. For Miriam and Joseph were and are believers. MEANING OF THIS DIALOGUE TO BELIEVERS:  (They did not understand the meaning of the saying which He spoke) this means there is a meaning behind it- as with all dialogue between He and His Mother.  It is a dialogue in WISDOM- Miriam says " Why have you treated us so" What did Yeshua do? He made them look everywhere for Him. That is what believers do. We seek Him everywhere in denominations and in other people. His response, " How is it that you sought Me?" he pointing out they sought for Him everywhere but where? He answers, "Did you not know I must be in My Fathers house?" This- though posed as a question- is an answer. What is His Father's House? What is the vessel of a man? it is the Temple of the Living God! We are to seek the male child within REV.12. How do we do this? Or rather who do we do this with? Who pondered all these things in her heart? Do you believe it was not for her to know? Or is it for her to reveal at the proper time? What did the Sept. 23rd sign mean? What does the Rev.12 prophecy mean? Dare I speak the name of Miriam to you? Trust me I speak not as the RCC speaks but as one given wisdom to understand. This has not been revealed by the RCC. It is for me to reveal to you and others. Do others have the understanding I do? I hope so because this is an awfully big responsibility for one soul.  Continuing with meaning:  Miriam, if she is the Mother of the Head she has to be the Mother of the Body? Do you get this? Think about it? does this mean we are to worship her? No! It does mean we are to venerate her though. What does veneration mean? Where is it in the scripture? It is revealed in Luke 1:39-56. Please have your bible on hand I do not want to do a data dump of so much of information on what is already written.  It is in this encounter that Mary is venerated and praised.  All should venerate her-Meaning of veneration: FROM A DICTIONARY-DEEP, RESPECTFUL LOVE, ADORATION. Miriam is in the woman's court of God. What is the women's court? Now if would read John10:22 It was the Feast of the Dedication at Jerusalem it was winter Yeshua (Jesus) was walking in the temple in the portico of Salomon, this is what was the women's portion of the court,

 better known as Solomon's porch on the east side of the temple. Feel free to look this up.In God's kingdom he has a place for Miriam which her purpose is to nurture the male child of the soul, till the male child reaches maturity and becomes independent of her. Without her nurturing the male child within is stunted in growth.  Protestants say the Rosary is wrong due to the repetition of the words. Can you tell me what words are not biblical? And if you meditate on the scriptures suggested in the Rosary where is the sin? Is there sin in the number of times? I'm sure you have posted the same scripture thousands of times with you rebuttals.

It is in the women's court that Christ is revealed as God, and we are to be like Him. The Jews wanted to stone Him for this. It is in the Woman, Miriam and the court assigned to Her that this is revealed. Those her reject her role are not obedient to God the Father.  Matthew7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord,Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but He who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord' did we not prophesy in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' and then will I declare to them ,'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'

You do not properly understand Rev12. nor do you understand Rev. 22 The tree of Life is Wisdom and wisdom is a she . Read  Proverbs 4. Now who is at God's side at creation and whom did he pour forth on all creation. I am not speaking about the Word , who is the beginning, who was with God and was God. I said beside- at His side.  Read Sirach 1. Now you might be inclined to say:" Wisdom can not be embodied  of a woman." I say why not? Who would have to be by the Lords side on earth as in heaven. Who is full of grace and BLESSED AMONG WOMEN? This means all women RIGHT? Who is the WOMAN of Genesis 3:15 and what is the enmity? The enmity is the HOLY SPIRIT in whom Wisdom dwells. And this , Miriam was filled with at the immaculate conception and Incarnation of Christ. Was the conception of Christ spotless and clean? Was Her flesh made Immaculate in order to carry and rear Christ? Would God the Father place The Messiah in a corrupt vessel? She was immaculately conceived herself when the Holy Spirit came and over shadowed her. She became the living vessel in flesh for Wisdom in full. Hence meaning of FULL OF GRACE. This had to be. For wisdom was at the side of the Word in heaven. Therefore had to be on earth. I can continue to explain- will you get it? Only God knows!

  Now, when given to John at the cross, she was given to the Churches care. John did not worship her but was to care for her and protect her. Not judge and condemn her as a sinner as John Calvin did and many Protestants do. The men of the church are to protect her dignity and respect the graces given to her by God the Father who made her full of grace, Luke 1: 26-38. This is to mans great reward. For Kings are made by her and receive kingdoms the reward of their wisdom, proportioned to them through whom all graces flow. Wisdom bears her fruit 12 months a year. Rev.22. And her leaves are for the healing of the nations. What do leaves reveal? What do leaves tell? Is this a physical tree? Or symbolic of something deeper? Is God placing a common tree above man? Do you talk to trees, do trees respond? NO! The symbolism of the leaves are messages. Leaves tell the changing and coming of a new season. They sing of birth, new life, death and regeneration. That is what Miriam's messages do for the body of Christ. She only Glorifies her son. The fruits she yields are children of Wisdom who reveal the will of Christ. Her role in the church is revealed in the Visitation to Elisabeth. She visits souls. How is it that we too should be highly favored that the Mother of our  Lord should come to visit us. How could the child within us not leap for joy? She says of herself ," from generation to generation all people shall call me blessed. What generations? For their are many who do not call her blessed.Did God the Father fulfill His promise to Abraham in her? Did he not say your seed will number amonst the stars of heaven to Abraham? Was Miriam an ark of the covenant when carrying and caring for Christ. Is Christ the New and Everlasting Covenant. Is an Ark only has Holy as what it carries and presents? Its Holiness is reflective of what is inside. Is Miriam Holy?  Is being in a state of sin  a state of Holiness? So, how can she be holy according to your John Calvin's teachings?  People should only follow scriptural based doctrines.

The RCC church does not teach in this way. Yes Miriam appeared to people in this denomination, they are not of it. For many centuries the RCC was all western civilization had. I do not believe all Catholics were heretics and bad. That is foolishness. She preserved many souls from being corrupted by the false teachers of the Vatican whom she- in her messages always speaks out against.  Do I believe all apparitions ascribed to her by every person who says Miriam (Mary) came to me? NO! I know which ones are true though. I test according to- 1 John 4. And I know the dragon is ever before Her to devour the male child whom she brings forth to our souls. He lies about her and her messages as the Vatican does, he rejects all teaching about her as the Protestants and all its sects do. He is ever present in this sinful world with its devices. Proverbs 8- please read.  Satan is ever before Israel preventing the fullness of the Gospel from  being brought forth, through false religions whom Israel follows and Israel has only given birth to air.  Read now Isaiah chps.26-27. You will then understand the blow to the head which is revealed in Revelation 13. The Beast out of the sea. I know the image of the beast as well. That is for another time. But the blow to head of the beast out of the sea is coming. When this happens the New Church, the New and Best wine ,saved for Last- meaning: for the last days- will teach Israel. This is the mystery of the dialogue at the Wedding Feast at Canaan. Not a dialogue in sin but in Wisdom. I will end there. Praise be to the Lord God Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, of all things seen and unseen.

I do not believe she is co- redemptrix either. Salvation only come through Christ whom she points us towards and nurtures in us and desires to bring forth. Miriam was part of the first church and she is part of the Last- in truth. I see you believe talking to Miriam and the apostles is like talking to the dead? Read Rev.5:6-9. heaven is a Kingdom in which God administers gifts and positions. Any one can see this who reads scripture guided by the Holy Spirit- and the Book of Revelation is full of this understanding. It is time for you to stop thinking with the mind of a child,  I pray God gives you growth. NO ONE IN THE BODY CHRIST DIES. THE SOUL IS ETERNAL. The dead are in hell I do not speak to them.

 

Who's now acting in spirit of discord? I didn't call Catholics heretics, I said they have errors. But you attack Protestants in the harshest way. The Gospel is simple (John 6:40, John 17:3, John 3:16-18, Romans 10:9-10, and Acts 15:9-12, Peter Himself says We are saved by grace). If you have a problem with the Protestant Gospel, you have problem with the actual Gospel, so take it up with Christ who wrote it, made the New Covenant (Hebrews 10). 

Edited by Fidei Defensor
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I have no problem WITH THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST. I didn't say you said all Catholics are heretics. I said I do not believe all RC's are heretics. And I have said in some of my post that SOME CATHOLICS ARE HERETICS. And I will say it once more here LOUD AND CLEAR! I DO NOT ASCRIBE TO THE HERETICAL TEACHINGS OF ANYONE! NOT PJP2, NOT RATZINGER , NOT POPE FRANCIS , or any other Pope in  Roman Catholic history who does not stand on the INFALLIBLE DOCTRINE OF SCRIPTURE.  PAPAL INFALLIBILITY SHOULD BE STATED AS FOLLOWS:  A POPES INFALLIBILITY IS AS INFALLIBLE AS THE WORD HE KEEPS AND FOLLOWS. You are as infallible as the word you keep. THAT WORD SHOULD BE CHRIST'! It is the infallible doctrine of scripture which makes you infallible. No discord when scripture is obeyed! I do not ascribe to the heretical teachings of your protestant fathers either. And actually the gospel is not Protestant , it is non denominational and it is THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST! I will also add, my response is for all not just you. And fits into the narrative of many  discussions concerning the RCC which everyone here addresses concerning me. I am NON DENOMINATIONAL. I do see truths though in denominations.

Edited by TheBride123
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