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20 hours ago, Yowm said:

And then there was the time when Saul was wreaking havoc on the Churches...

And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.
(Act 22:4)
 

If ever was the time to pick up the sword it was then.

But don't get me wrong, I do believe in defending family and nation...it is more of a call of conscience.

Ha and Hi,

 Call of conscience, a good title for a thread thinks I.

Personally I find conscience to be a poor guide for life. The idea being that some of us have no conscience at all, others have a very different sense of conscience. To me it is a Jiminy Cricket walt Disney kind of thing where makes  all right, what the want to be all right.

Thats it!
Come on now!
Lets sing it!

When you get in trouble
and you don't know right from wrong
give a little whistle, give a little whistle

When you meet temptation
and the urge is very strong

give a little whistle, give a little whistle

Not just a little squeak, pucker up and blow
and if you're whistle is weak, yell

(Pinnochio)

Jiminy Cricket!

(Jiminy Cricket)

Right!

Take the strait and narrow path
and if you start to slide
give a little whistle, give a little whistle
and always let your conscience be your guide

Take the strait and narrow path
and if you start to slide
give a little whistle (yoo-hoo)
give a little whistle (yoo-HOO!)
and always let your conscience be your guide

(Pinnocchio)

And always let your conscience be your guide!

( Neighbor )
I don't think So- Armor up with the word of God, so that one is not left to the devices of one's conscience is my thought.

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7 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

King David fought back. So did Abraham when his family and lot was overtaken. 

Yes, but brother......that about Abraham was a living parable written down so that we as His church would glean and learn things about the SPIRITUAL battle we face as Christians.......our weapons are not carnal, they are SPIRITUAL....isn't that true, isn't that what the bible says?  That passage is a picture about saving souls as spiritual plunder from the enemy.  And remember David was not allowed to build the Temple because his hands were bloody....an example of being too carnal to build His spiritual house.

1 Chronicles 28:3  But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood.

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9 hours ago, HAZARD said:
Quote

frienduffthaylorde wrote;

"I say OBEY JESUS  is all we need to do, and by the SPIRIT."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Arm yourselves and protect yourselves and your families even as Jesus told His disciples to arm themselves.

Luke 22:36. "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

This Scripture must be taken literally as it meant protection from wild beasts, and robbers that filled Judea in those days, which if they found them unprotected, would not hesitate to take their lives. The disciples knew Christs instruction did not mean the swords were to used as offensive weapons to propagate the gospel.

Now there are some in this world who sincerely believe we should lie down and allow criminals to do what ever they like to us and ours, simply because we are followers of Jesus. This is not what God wants from us. Needlessly dying for the gospel does not spread the Word, it limits the spreading of the Word to those left alive, depending on the country.

Those preaching God is love, and love is love, we must Love God and even love murderers and criminals is false teaching in my opinion. God is love! Love is not God? If love was god, it would be a false god; a god made in human image. It would not be God. Therefore love is love, is a lie. If love is love, then there is no argument against racists who love their race more than others and proudly show it. The answer then is that love cannot, does not and must not be construed as, being able to define itself, and allow ones self to be murdered.

 

Z  61..jpg

Hazard, please read this carefully, it is the same circumstance we have been talking about:

Mat 26:50-54

Jesus replied, “Do what you came for, friend.” Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.

With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

“Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”

God's ways are HIGHER than ours......aren't we glad that Jesus chose to obey the higher way, otherwise we would still all be ensnared in our sins and nothing but hell awaiting us for the rest of eternity.  He is worthy of our trust.......so we should just BELIEVE what He says.

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On 9/15/2017 at 10:47 PM, Yowm said:

The one time a disciple (not yet apostle) used a sword, he got rebuffed...

Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?
(Joh 18:10-11)

Also in all of the Book of Acts, I don't recall a sword being drawn by an Apostle or disciple.
 

You brought up something that possibly occurred, based on their hate for Jesus and His disciples. I can picture in my mind Malchus standing before the magistrate, and demanding Peter be tried and imprisoned for cutting off his ear. All the while the magistrate looking at both his ears and thinking he was mad. I chuckle at that thought.

I think Jesus performed that miracle not out of compassion for Malchus, but to keep the prophetic Word. I personally suspect Peter was rebuffed not for trying to protect Jesus, but for unintentionally interfering with God's plan. 

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45 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

Yes, but brother......that about Abraham was a living parable written down so that we as His church would glean and learn things about the SPIRITUAL battle we face as Christians.......our weapons are not carnal, they are SPIRITUAL....isn't that true, isn't that what the bible says?  That passage is a picture about saving souls as spiritual plunder from the enemy.  And remember David was not allowed to build the Temple because his hands were bloody....an example of being too carnal to build His spiritual house.

1 Chronicles 28:3  But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood.

If people want to go and live back under the law and do all things by the letter it says I cannot stop them.  But since I know JESUS is the one who taught his own

HOW to live the law , that GOD alone is judge not us , to me since HE IS LORD , its HIS SAYINGS I follow.   To me its that simple.

He showed man how to live by the law.   IF we take old testament examples to justify our concepts, YET those concepts Honor NOT CHRIST

then that is how we know we are in error.    WHO used scrips to try and tempt Christ. 

This one too , will use old test examples to cause us to TEMPT CHRIST.  The simple walk is to OBEY CHRIST.

I have , by grace come to the understanding that truly JESUS knows the law the way man should live it better than any man does.

So grace showed me, that all I need to do is simply trust and obey Christ.   His sayings fulfill the law , and show man the way to live unto GOD.

I guarantee this is simple fact.    I trust not in my flesh nor any other ,   CHRIST , HIS SAYINGS are the ONLY TRUTH I CAN TRUST IN .   its just that simple for me.

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1 minute ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

If people want to go and live back under the law and do all things by the letter it says I cannot stop them.  But since I know JESUS is the one who taught his own

HOW to live the law , that GOD alone is judge not us , to me since HE IS LORD , its HIS SAYINGS I follow.   To me its that simple.

He showed man how to live by the law.   IF we take old testament examples to justify our concepts, YET those concepts Honor NOT CHRIST

then that is how we know we are in error.    WHO used scrips to try and tempt Christ. 

This one too , will use old test examples to cause us to TEMPT CHRIST.  The simple walk is to OBEY CHRIST.

I have , by grace come to the understanding that truly JESUS knows the law the way man should live it better than any man does.

So grace showed me, that all I need to do is simply trust and obey Christ.   His sayings fulfill the law , and show man the way to live unto GOD.

I guarantee this is simple fact.    I trust not in my flesh nor any other ,   CHRIST , HIS SAYINGS are the ONLY TRUTH I CAN TRUST IN .   its just that simple for me.

Here is an example of satan at work.    HAS JESUS really said not to avenge yourself if one does you wrong.

NO NO says the serpent FOR IT IS WRITTEN EYE FOR EYE TOOTH FOR TOOTH.

His objective is TO get us to disobey Christ.   That is his goal  HE knows JESUS , JESUS SAYINGS are our meat for life sustaining growth  .

the enemy knows JESUS is the only way for man to be saved.

The dark one is very clever

He says things like this ,   DID JESUS really say resist not evil, then he goes back into OLD test , to bring those examples to get us to do what..........DISOBEY CHRIST.

that is how he works , it is his mission and he can overcome us if we walk by the carnal flesh of our mind.

I have just come to see it as a small babe.   IF JESUS said to do we do , IF HE SAID NOT TO WE DONT , we walk LIKE HE DID by HIS SPIRIT.

in all of his sayings.  

the enemy slumbers not , nor sleeps , he is fast at work alluring all through the flesh , and if we follow our carnal mind and NOT CHRIST and HIS SAYINGS

we are doomed .  How many hundreds, perhaps thousands has ISIS killed overseas.   YET the true ones did not resist the evil against them

they did not pick up arms to defend themselves or others with them.  THEY simply gave up their life, BECAUSE they KNOW something

and have something so many no longer see.  THEY have CHRIST , thus death is not the end,

their is no fear of death IF we have CHRIST .  fear not man, fear not what comes against you, simply FEAR GOD, and CHRIST is the ONE WHO REVEALS the FATHER TO US.

IF our enemy persecutes us in one town, JESUS DID NOT SAY PICK UP ARMS AND DEFEND YOU OR YOUR LOVED ONES

HE SAID FLEE YE .  FLEE. FLEE , FLEE, but not pick up arms.   This would have been the time Where JESUS would have said pick up arms IF IT WAS OKAY TO DO SO

HE NEVER DID.........HE SAID FLEE.   FLEE.   MY choice is to obey CHRIST , cause I sure cant find my own path or way to GOD

its ONLY IN CHRIST so its HIS SAYINGS I WILL JOYFULLY HONOR AND KEEP.

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5 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Here is an example of satan at work.    HAS JESUS really said not to avenge yourself if one does you wrong.

NO NO says the serpent FOR IT IS WRITTEN EYE FOR EYE TOOTH FOR TOOTH.

His objective is TO get us to disobey Christ.   That is his goal  HE knows JESUS , JESUS SAYINGS are our meat for life sustaining growth  .

the enemy knows JESUS is the only way for man to be saved.

The dark one is very clever

He says things like this ,   DID JESUS really say resist not evil, then he goes back into OLD test , to bring those examples to get us to do what..........DISOBEY CHRIST.

that is how he works , it is his mission and he can overcome us if we walk by the carnal flesh of our mind.

I have just come to see it as a small babe.   IF JESUS said to do we do , IF HE SAID NOT TO WE DONT , we walk LIKE HE DID by HIS SPIRIT.

in all of his sayings.  

the enemy slumbers not , nor sleeps , he is fast at work alluring all through the flesh , and if we follow our carnal mind and NOT CHRIST and HIS SAYINGS

we are doomed .  How many hundreds, perhaps thousands has ISIS killed overseas.   YET the true ones did not resist the evil against them

they did not pick up arms to defend themselves or others with them.  THEY simply gave up their life, BECAUSE they KNOW something

and have something so many no longer see.  THEY have CHRIST , thus death is not the end,

their is no fear of death IF we have CHRIST .  fear not man, fear not what comes against you, simply FEAR GOD, and CHRIST is the ONE WHO REVEALS the FATHER TO US.

IF our enemy persecutes us in one town, JESUS DID NOT SAY PICK UP ARMS AND DEFEND YOU OR YOUR LOVED ONES

HE SAID FLEE YE .  FLEE. FLEE , FLEE, but not pick up arms.   This would have been the time Where JESUS would have said pick up arms IF IT WAS OKAY TO DO SO

HE NEVER DID.........HE SAID FLEE.   FLEE.   MY choice is to obey CHRIST , cause I sure cant find my own path or way to GOD

its ONLY IN CHRIST so its HIS SAYINGS I WILL JOYFULLY HONOR AND KEEP.

Jesus said to buy sword in New Testament and if you can't afford then sell your garmet aswell just to buy that sword to defend yourself .

Luke 22

35And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

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42 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Here is an example of satan at work.    HAS JESUS really said not to avenge yourself if one does you wrong.

NO NO says the serpent FOR IT IS WRITTEN EYE FOR EYE TOOTH FOR TOOTH.

His objective is TO get us to disobey Christ.   That is his goal  HE knows JESUS , JESUS SAYINGS are our meat for life sustaining growth  .

the enemy knows JESUS is the only way for man to be saved.

The dark one is very clever

He says things like this ,   DID JESUS really say resist not evil, then he goes back into OLD test , to bring those examples to get us to do what..........DISOBEY CHRIST.

that is how he works , it is his mission and he can overcome us if we walk by the carnal flesh of our mind.

I have just come to see it as a small babe.   IF JESUS said to do we do , IF HE SAID NOT TO WE DONT , we walk LIKE HE DID by HIS SPIRIT.

in all of his sayings.  

the enemy slumbers not , nor sleeps , he is fast at work alluring all through the flesh , and if we follow our carnal mind and NOT CHRIST and HIS SAYINGS

we are doomed .  How many hundreds, perhaps thousands has ISIS killed overseas.   YET the true ones did not resist the evil against them

they did not pick up arms to defend themselves or others with them.  THEY simply gave up their life, BECAUSE they KNOW something

and have something so many no longer see.  THEY have CHRIST , thus death is not the end,

their is no fear of death IF we have CHRIST .  fear not man, fear not what comes against you, simply FEAR GOD, and CHRIST is the ONE WHO REVEALS the FATHER TO US.

IF our enemy persecutes us in one town, JESUS DID NOT SAY PICK UP ARMS AND DEFEND YOU OR YOUR LOVED ONES

HE SAID FLEE YE .  FLEE. FLEE , FLEE, but not pick up arms.   This would have been the time Where JESUS would have said pick up arms IF IT WAS OKAY TO DO SO

HE NEVER DID.........HE SAID FLEE.   FLEE.   MY choice is to obey CHRIST , cause I sure cant find my own path or way to GOD

its ONLY IN CHRIST so its HIS SAYINGS I WILL JOYFULLY HONOR AND KEEP.

Amen to the things you are saying frienduff.........I can only suggest that people read the bible more and ask the Lord for understanding.  We are supposed to grow in spirit and faith, and not remain stuck in our old man of carnality.........the OT and law is just a tutor that is supposed to lead to Christ.  No one was intended to remain in a state of carnal interpretation of the law, (like the Pharisees who failed to combine it with faith, ie, spirit).......but learn the spiritual lessons it teaches, the Lord speaking to us in parables, and much of the OT was living parables, ensamples, that we would learn from.

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1 minute ago, Heleadethme said:

Amen to the things you are saying frienduff.........I can only suggest that people read the bible more and ask the Lord for understanding.  We are supposed to grow in spirit and faith, and not remain stuck in our old man of carnality.........the OT and law is just a tutor that is supposed to lead to Christ.  No one was intended to remain in a state of carnal interpretation of the law, (like the Pharisees who failed to combine it with faith, ie, spirit).......but learn the spiritual lessons it teaches, the Lord speaking to us in parables, and much of the OT was living parables, ensamples, that we would learn from.

Oh yes .   While from day ONE the Lord always had me from my new birth,  their was much I had to learn, and SISTER I have no doubt much more will we learn.

even in time of chastisments.    I am sure their is more to be dross to be burned away and ourself refined as silver.

I too hope more will read the bible more and more.    Grace put HIS WORD in me, then immediately put me in the words OF THE WORD.  

The SPRIIT pointed me right to the book from which to feed from.   Man and its words are as honey to the soul.   JESUS IS LORD

and if we call him LORD LORD............oh let us DO THE THINGS WHICH HE SAYS.

By the power of grace , of the ONE who works all things within his own , to their good, unto the GLORY OF THE FATHER.

Man, its singing time yet again.   When the holy ghost has me point to JESUS , ONLY JESUS, HIS SAYINGS , a fire lights within my own soul.

IF pointing only to JESUS and not to men is wrong.  THEN DEAR SISTER ,  why would I ever want to be right according to men in high places .

for men in high places SAY JESUS NAME................But they POINT to THEM SELVES as the POWER of GOD.   what a dung pile of a mindset that is.

Imagine me or anyone thinking we the POWER o GOD as though we attained holiness apart FROM CHRIST.   what a stink of ointment that is.

Me I had rather die ten thousand deaths than to point to me as something special on my own.  what a laugh.   I was a joke of upmost darkness

without Christ , He changed me......SO HE IS WHO I WILL POINT TOO.   and man I have such peace in that.   

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1 hour ago, Yowm said:

Please. Of course God's Word trumps conscience but there are areas that God's Word does not spell out clearly or at leaves room for conscience sake such as...

But food will not bring us before God. We are no worse off if we do not eat and no better off if we do eat. But watch out that this freedom of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For suppose someone sees you—who have this knowledge—dining in an idol’s temple. If his conscience is weak, won’t he be emboldened to eat idol sacrifices? For the one who is weak is destroyed by your knowledge—the brother for whom Messiah died. In this way, when you sin against the brothers and sisters and wound their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Messiah. For this reason, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I do not cause my brother to stumble.
(1Co 8:8-13)

 I see  that taking up a sword or not, especially  to defend self is a matter of conscience. You seem to indicate that God's  Word makes a clear choice for us...care to share?
 

What I say is this; conscience will allow for, and then champion, any decision on any topic.  Conscience will override reasoning, will override  faith, and even the word of God, if allowed to be the judge and jury on  matters big or small. Natural conscience is an easy task master, one that accepts many a fool's errand as it's own mission.

"Always let your conscience be your guide!"  is a terrible piece of advice. I call it Jiminy Cricket philosophy. Man is depraved from the get go. For man to rely on his natural  conscience is to follow depravity total rule. It is the very definition of anarchy, everyone doing their own thing whatever it may be that suits just self at all times.

As to defense which the topic seems to have turned into, there is more than conscience involved. If it is the question of defense, then  from what and to what gain?

Seems to me,  better to read the word of God, study it, pray over it, and pray again for understanding  from the Holy spirit about the word, then allow the Holy Spirit to bring it to mind when situations arise requiring good  decision making.  And not confuse personal natural conscience with the lead of the Holy Spirit.

I believe from my own reading that, the Holy Spirit may well lead thee and me in two diverse directions, yet both  be the will of God  for each of us that we serve His good purpose. If it He wills that you stand behind a plowshare so to speak, and for me to hammer out a sword, then you had better be plowing and me hammering. If we are to do all things that we do to His glory.

God will winnow down  the number He wants to do fights, just as He always has. I believe He does so that we not glory in ourselves for our own might, but instead know His awesome power and praise Him for it. If the battle command we hear from God via His word, answer to prayer, and the lead of the Holy Spirit seems crazed, we still will be better off to follow it- to His Glory.

That said, God has made Israel a warrior nation, a nation of many a great battle with easy victories and very hard defeats while always, always  being faithful to His plan and His covenant to mankind. Victory is always His, and defeat is always of His doing  too, even to how each will fight, whether by weapons of war or by weapons of will and faith alone as the martyrs, each is of His doing.

 

Now Jericho was shut up inside and outside because of the people of Israel. None went out, and none came in. And the Lord said to Joshua, “See, I have given Jericho into your hand, with its king and mighty men of valor. You shall march around the city, all the men of war going around the city once. Thus shall you do for six days. Seven priests shall bear seven trumpets of rams' horns before the ark. On the seventh day you shall march around the city seven times, and the priests shall blow the trumpets.  And when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, when you hear the sound of the trumpet, then all the people shall shout with a great shout, and the wall of the city will fall down flat, and the people shall go up, everyone straight before him.”

 

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