THE RAPTURE

[Wayne222]

The pre trib rapture is not what I believe.  Many Christians don't believe in this teaching. But christian should never divide over it. What's funny to me is how pre trib rapture people talk as it is a given. Like it's as sure as teaching Christ rose from the dead. I always say this is what I believe and state a post trib belief.  When we are dogmatic about certain things it divides. 

[Wayne222]

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

Live like Jesus will return any second, but be prepared for Him not to return in your lifetime.  It really doesn't matter when.  What matters is that it will happen.  Live for Jesus every moment of your life and you will not care of the when.

I agree.

[missmuffet]

10 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Okay, read that and missed it, where is the secret part?

By secret they mean that others will not see it and it will not be visible to unbelievers. Not like the second coming where everyone will see Jesus Christ.

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 9/18/2017 at 10:20 AM, missmuffet said:

By secret they mean that others will not see it and it will not be visible to unbelievers. Not like the second coming where everyone will see Jesus Christ.

That is fair enough, but that was not my question. My question was to the point that a specific verse was cited in relation to a secret rapture, but the verse says nothing about a secret anything. Just trying to see what the evidence is that there is an invisible or secret coming mentioned in scripture.

I am sorry I bothered you, I did not realize when I asked you that question, that I should have been asking Got Questions, not you missmuffet. For a moment, I thought you were posting your own ideas, not cut and pasting the ideas of others, that was my mistake.

Still, that being said an acknowledged, it would be interesting to find a pre-trib rapture believer, who believes in a separate, secret/invisible coming of Jesus as distinct from the visible coming that the Bible describes*, to show us some scriptural evidence to support this belief of two future comings. It just seems to me at times, that the only thing secret about Jesus secret coming, is that it is so secret, it is not even described in the Bible itself.

Thanks for responding, just the same!

*Rev 1:7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

[missmuffet]

7 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

That is fair enough, but that was not my question. My question was to the point that a specific verse was cited in relation to a secret rapture, but the verse says nothing about a secret anything. Just trying to see what the evidence is that there is an invisible or secret coming mentioned in scripture.

I am sorry I bothered you, I did not realize when I asked you that question, that I should have been asking Got Questions, not you missmuffet. For a moment, I thought you were posting your own ideas, not cut and pasting the ideas of others, that was my mistake.

Still, that being said an acknowledged, it would be interesting to find a pre-trib rapture believer, who believes in a separate, secret/invisible coming of Jesus as distinct from the visible coming that the Bible describes*, to show us some scriptural evidence to support this belief of two future comings. It just seems to me at times, that the only thing secret about Jesus secret coming, is that it is so secret, it is not even described in the Bible itself.

Thanks for responding, just the same!

*Rev 1:7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

There is no evidence Omega. I just have to take God's Word is they are literally written in the Bible. I posted a new video in the Biblical topic of the video section of Worthy for Horse if he is interested in viewing it. He is a pre trib believer so if you are interested as well please go over an view it

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 minute ago, missmuffet said:

There is no evidence Omega. I just have to take God's Word is they are literally written in the Bible. I posted a new video in the Biblical topic of the video section of Worthy for Horse if he is interested in viewing it. He is a pre trib believer so if you are interested as well please go over an view it

I will try to get around to doing that, thanks!

[missmuffet]

Just now, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I will try to get around to doing that, thanks!

I am sure he has answers to questions that you have. I know that is not your view point.

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 minute ago, missmuffet said:

I am sure he has answers to questions that you have. I know that is not your view point.

Well, yes, and to be fair, I do not need any evidence to support a view I already have, so I really am primarily interested in information that can persuade me to learn something I do not believe. I hope that is the attitude that most have. How much can I learn, from people showing me what I already know? While no one showed be the post-trib rapture in scripture, I am grateful that someone once pointed out to me, that the pre-trib rapture was not the only view point though it was the only one I had heard of until that point, so I had not doubts about it, until I was prompted to study it out for myself.

For me it is the same with reformed theology (what you refer to as Calvinism), it is not essential to salvation, nor does it help nor hinder one's walk with Christ (here I mean both eschatology and sotierology). People may believe these things and be solid Christians. I did not 'go Calvinist' until a few years ago, now I am amazed that I missed it for decades. Goes to show, that people can be extremely stubborn, and hang on to beliefs.

[Omegaman 3.0]

Well, I am going to quote, what I put in that video thread, since it is so relevant here:

Quote

 

at 2:50, in video 1 of 6 (as far as I have gotten so for), Dr. Ice defines the rapture and says that it is different from the resurrection, which is for dead people. I would agree with him on the point. I also agree with the apostle Paul who said in 1 Thess 4:

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

There we have a specified sequence, the resurrection of the dead in Christ, followed by the catching up (rapture) of believers to be with the Lord forever.

Interestingly, there is an event, know as the first ressurection, described in Rev 20:

 4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Notice then that Rev 20 points out, that the first resurrection includes believers who are killed during the tribulation - beheaded for their testimony of Jesus an the refusal to worship the beast or his image, and did not take his mark on their hands or foreheads.

One has to wonder, how there can be a pre-trib rapture, if the rapture does not happen until after the resurrection, and the resurrection, happens after the martyrdom of Christians during the tribulation. The simple answer for those who prefer to take the Bible literally, is that there is no pre-trib rapture, in contradicts these passages! What am I missing here that is not some made up belief, but is actual sriptural information?

Summary -  TheBible says:

1 There is a terrible time, where Christians suffer and lose there lives under the persecution of the beast( Rev 20:4)

2 They are resurrected in the first resurrection (Rev 20:4)

3 Those Christians who are alive and remain, will not preceed or go ahead of the the resurrected believers, but will be caught up in the clouds, to join them and Christ, at His coming. (Thess 4:15 and 17)

 

By the way, for those who want to watch Dr. Ice on the pre-tribulation rapture theory, the video missmuffet posted is at:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/212695-thomas-ice-on-the-pretribulation-rapture-of-the-church/

 

[Fidei Defensor]

Food for Thought: 

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven (Revelation 1:7, Revelation 19:11-16) with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." -Jesus Christ, Matthew 24:29-31

Notice the sequence is Tribulation, destruction, Jesus appears on Clouds, and then Saints are gathered. 

"I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." -Revelation 7:14

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever." -1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

"tell you, he will grant justice to them quickly! But when the Son of Man returns, how many will he find on the earth who have faith?," -Luke 18:8

"And the beast was allowed to wage war against God’s holy people (the Saints) and to conquer them. And he was given authority to rule over every tribe and people and language and nation. And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made. He was then permitted to give life to this statue so that it could speak. Then the statue of the beast commanded that anyone refusing to worship it must die," -Revelation 13:7-8, 15

"If anyone is destined for captivity, into captivity he will go; If anyone is to die by the sword, by the sword he must be killed." Here is a call for the perseverance and faith of the saints." -Revelation 13:10

"Let this encourage God’s people to endure patiently every trial and persecution, for they are his saints who remain firm to the end in obedience to his commands and trust in Jesus," -Revelation 14:12

"Then I saw in heaven another marvelous event of great significance. Seven angels were holding the seven last plagues, which would bring God’s wrath to completion. I saw before me what seemed to be a glass sea mixed with fire. And on it stood all the people who had been victorious over the beast and his statue and the number representing his name. They were all holding harps that God had given them. And they were singing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb," (Revelation 15:1-3)

We go through Wrath of the Antichrist, but not the Wrath of Christ (Revelation 19:11-16).