Pelagianism

[LuftWaffle]

On 9/18/2017 at 3:13 AM, Robert William said:

If guys are going to embrace free will I will go somewhere else.

Are we embracing free will by our own volition which we ought not do and are capable of not doing, or did God sovereignly decree that we embrace free will? If the former then welcome to club free will, if the latter, then I'm afraid your issue is with God not us. If we are not capable of doing otherwise, then how is it our fault?

Edited September 19, 2017 by LuftWaffle

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 minute ago, Robert William said:

As I requested Cletus, are you able to show us scriptural proof that says ALL humans get a measure of faith??

Not sure I understand the question, it quotes me, then appears to address Cletus. Are you asking me, if I am able to shoe scriptural proof that the Bible says ALL humans get a measure of faith, as perhaps you also asked of Cletus?

[Robert William]

2 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

Are we embracing free will by our own volition which we ought not do or did God sovereignly decree that we embrace free will? If the former then welcome to club free will, if the latter, then I'm afraid your issue is with God not us.

What is free will?

 

by Matt Slick

Free will is the ability to make choices without external coercion.  There are debates as to what extent this free will is to be understood as it relates to people.  There are two main views:  compatibilism and libertarianism.

The compatibilist view is the position that a person's freedom is restricted by his nature as is described in Scripture and that his free will is consistent with God's foreordination.   In other words, he can only choose what his nature (sinful or regenerate) will allow him to choose.  Therefore, such verses as 1 Cor. 2:14; Rom. 3:10-12; Rom. 6:14-20 are used to demonstrate that, for example, the unbeliever is incapable of choosing God of his own free will since they say that the unbeliever cannot receive spiritual things, does no good, and is a slave to sin.

Libertarian free will says that the person's will is not restricted by his sinful nature and that he is still able to choose or accept God freely.  Verses used to support this view are John 3:16 and 3:36.  Two subdivisions of libertarian free will would be "open absolute free will" which says that man's choices are not knowable by God until they occur and "non-open absolute free will" which would state that God can know man's choices but he cannot determine them.

The biblical position is compatibilism.  Since the Bible clearly teaches us that the unbeliever is restricted to making sinful choices (1 Cor. 2:14; Rom. 3:10-12; Rom. 6:14-20), then we must conclude that anyone who believes in God (John 3:16; 3:36) does so because God has granted that he believe (Phil. 1:29), has caused him to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3), and chosen him for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13).

All the cults and false religious systems teach the libertarian view of free will that salvation and spiritual understanding are completely within the grasp of sinners (in spite of their enslavement to and deadness in sin).  For them, salvation would be totally up to the ability of the individual to make such a choice.

1. Man Apart from God
   1. Jer. 13:23, "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil."
   2. Rom. 5:10, "For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
   3. Rom. 8:7, "because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so."
2. Verses related to free will choices of sinners
   1. John 1:13, "who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
   2. Rom. 9:16, "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."
      1. "the man" is singular
   3. Rom. 9:18, "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."
   4. 1 Cor. 2:14, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."
   5. Phil. 1:29, "For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake."

[Robert William]

Just now, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Not sure I understand the question, it quotes me, then appears to address Cletus. Are you asking me, if I am able to shoe scriptural proof that the Bible says ALL humans get a measure of faith, as perhaps you also asked of Cletus?

Then please show us the scriptures.

 

[LuftWaffle]

9 minutes ago, Robert William said:

What is free will?

 

by Matt Slick

Free will is the ability to make choices without external coercion. 

The first sentence is wrong because it's self serving. It is not the absence of coercion that makes a decision free, but the absence of determinism. When a car crashes into another where the driver cannot do otherwise we call it an accident, and there is no culpability.

Compatiblism is a fully deterministic view of the will which simply tries to redefine the meaning of freedom in deterministic terms. If our actions are determined then they cannot be free in any meaningful sense of the word "free".

Quote

Libertarian free will says that the person's will is not restricted by his sinful nature and that he is still able to choose or accept God freely.

This is also rubbish. Libertarian free will does not deny restrictions but claims that the restrictions are not determinitive of the outcome. This is unfortunately why Matt Slick is taken seriously by his own fan-base and little else. Of course we are influenced by our sinful nature but the responsibility still lies with us.
 

Edited September 19, 2017 by LuftWaffle

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 9/18/2017 at 10:07 PM, Robert William said:

Then please show us the scriptures.

 

Show us what scriptures, I was not the one making the claim! I am still not sure I understand the question, but if you are asking me, if there is scriptural evidence that God has given everyone a measure of faith, I am going to have to say no, not that I know of. The only place that come to mind with that terminology, is Romans 12, but Romans 12 is addressed to the Church at Rome, to Christians, and is in the context of Spiritual gifts, as I recall, and not for "the world".

Even there, we would need to ask, faith, what is it, faith in what? Certainly not all are given faith in Christ, if we mean faith as in believing God at His word. We are given evidence that He exists (as even Satan knows very well), but that is not saving faith, or the kind of faith that moves mountains.

Whenever I enter a room in my home, I through the light switch, in the belief (faith) that the light will then come on. Usually that faith is validated, but it may not always be, especially if I neglects to pay the bill!

[Robert William]

7 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

The first sentence is wrong because it's self serving. It is not the absence of coercion that makes a decision free, but the absence of determinism.

Compatiblism is a fully deterministic view of the will which simply tries to redefine the meaning of freedom in deterministic terms. If our actions are determined then they cannot be free in any meaningful sense of the word "free".
 

Man has a free will when it comes to making choices about what he will wear or eat etc... but when it comes to the gospel he/she will not embrace it because they are dead in sins and are haters of God.

1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Robert William

[LuftWaffle]

1 minute ago, Robert William said:

Man has a free will when it comes to making choices about what he will wear or eat etc... but when it comes to the gospel he/she will not embrace it because they are dead in sins and are haters of God.

 

So you say, I disagree. Who is responsible for us believing free will, did God decree is or do we believe it though we ought not to?

I have another question for you:

Man has a sinful nature which influences him to irresistably sin even though the sinful nature and the man was ordained by God, but because man desires to commit the sin, God is off the hook.
God regenerates man which influences him to irresistably repent, and this desire for repentance was ordained by God, and for this God does get the glory.

Notice the inconsistency?
 

 

[Robert William]

Just now, LuftWaffle said:

So you say, I disagree. Who is responsible for us believing free will, did God decree is or do we believe it though we ought not to?

I have another question for you:

Man has a sinful nature which influences him to irresistably sin even though the sinful nature and the man was ordained by God, but because man desires to commit the sin, God is off the hook.
God regenerates man which influences him to irresistably repent, and this desire for repentance was ordained by God, and for this God does get the glory.

Notice the inconsistency?
 

 

If you are saying that regeneration precedes faith then I agree.

[LuftWaffle]

11 minutes ago, Robert William said:

If you are saying that regeneration precedes faith then I agree.

I was stating your own beliefs back to you to highlight an inconsistency. Here it is again:

God decrees a sinful nature, which causes desires to sin, God is off the hook, because man desires the sin.
God decrees regeneration, which causes desire to repent, God gets the glory this time, in spite of man desiring the repentance.

See the problem?

And for the third time, who is responsible for us believing free will. Our own will which we ought not follow, or the sovereign decree of God?

 

Edited September 19, 2017 by LuftWaffle