Questions for Post-Tribulationists. Long

[KiwiChristian]

Questions for Post-Tribulationists.

Question 1: Show me the rapture mentioned in Revelation 19:11-21 or Zechariah 14:1-5? It’s not there.
Question 2: Show me the church mentioned in one OT or NT passage discussing the tribulation?
Question 3: How can the rapture and glorious appearing be on the same day when the rapture day is unknown and the glorious appearing day will be known? How can a day be both known and unknown?
Question 4: The open door into heaven with a voice, trumpet, and catching up to heaven occurs in both Rev 4:1 and I Thess 4:16-18.Why do post-tribs reject this as the pre-trib. rapture? Open door Rev 19:11.
Q5: If you accept the 2 witnesses are caught up to heaven in Rev 11:12 by ‘Come up hither’ why not rapture in 4:1?
Question 6: Show me the church on earth from Revelation 6-18? It is not there because it is in heaven.
Question 7: If the church is not raptured until Rev 20:4, as post-tribulationists think, then how could the church be in heaven in Rev 19:7-11, before Christ’s glorious appearing?
Question 8: Do you agree that the 24 elders in heaven represent the raptured church age Christians?
If no, then who are they and what proof do you have of their identity?
If yes, then will you accept the pre-tribulation rapture and reject the post-tribulation rapture as error?
Question 9: Do you agree that the armies in fine linen accompanying Christ at His return are church age Christians? If no, then who are they and what proof do you have of their identity?
Question 10: Who are you looking for, Christ or antichrist? Why would Christ want His bride to look for the antichrist? Question 11: How will the tribulation sufferings comfort us? Post-tribulationists can’t explain this. Question 12: Does the Philadelphian church represent the faithful church at the end of the church age?
Do you believe that God will keep this church out of the time of the tribulation coming on all the world?
Question 13: Since Jesus returns to earth from a wedding, doesn’t this prove the church is in heaven before the glorious appearing? Can you see that this disproves the post-tribulation rapture? Why is the church in heaven (19:7) if the church is raptured after Jesus returns to earth as post-trib claims?
Question 14: Who is the Restrainer? If he is the Holy Spirit’s influence in the church, then doesn’t this prove the rapture comes before antichrist is revealed and before the tribulation as II Thess. 2:6-8 states?
Question 15: Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and not take us there at the rapture (as post-tribulation rapture people think)?
Question 16: What is the purpose of the rapture if it occurs at the end of the tribulation? No purpose!
Question 17: Who resurrects and gathers the church at the rapture, Christ or angels? Christ! Then how can Matthew 24:31 refer to the rapture if angels gather the elect of Israel here?
Question 18: How can the last day be the same 24 hour period when 1000 years separate the resurrection of the saved in John 11:24 and the resurrection of the unsaved in John 12:48?
Question 19: In Matthew 13:30,49 the angels gather the wicked first and gather the righteous later, then the angels gathering the elect in Matthew 24:31 cannot be the rapture, because in I Thessalonians 4:17 the righteous are resurrected first.
Question 20: If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? (Matthew 25:31-46).
Question 21: Who will populate the millennium? If a post-tribulation rapture occurs at the glorious appearing and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Question 22: The judgment of Israel is discussed in Ezekiel 20:38, ‘I will purge out from among you the rebels.’ This judgment of Israel occurs at the second coming of Jesus Christ in glory and requires saved and unsaved Israelites to be regathered. If all the saved (including saved Jews) had previously been separated a few days earlier by the rapture, why would there be a need to separate saved Jews and lost Jews after Jesus Christ’s coming. They would have been separated a few days earlier by the rapture.
Question 23: In view of these 14 differences between the rapture and glorious appearing, why do you ignore these differences and insist that these events occur on the same day?
Question 24: If we go through the tribulation, how can it be a blessed hope?
Question 25: How can the tribulation be called Jacob’s trouble for Israel and a blessed hope for the church, if both groups must go through it?
Question 26: What is desirable about entering the tribulation? Nothing. 1502
Question 27: What comfort is there in entering the tribulation? None.
Question 28: Why do you ignore 7 examples of the focus of the tribulation being Israel, and still believe the church enters the tribulation? What examples prove that the church enters the tribulation?
Question 29: If the apostles are in heaven in Revelation 18:20 before Christ’s return in Revelation 19, then how can the church be raptured later when Christ returns in Revelation 19?
Questio30: Since Paul uses the third person pronouns ‘They’, ‘them’ and ‘they’ in I Thessalonians 5:3, can you see that he is excluding the church from the tribulation, thus proving a pre-tribulation rapture?
Q31: Since church age believers are not of darkness, why do you say we enter the tribulation darkness?
Question 32: Will the church be overtaken by the day of the Lord/tribulation or not overtaken? No!
Question 33: Has God appointed the church to the tribulation wrath or not (I Thess 5:9)? Paul says no!
Question 34: Why would God rescue Enoch, Lot, Rahab from His judgment on the wicked & not the church?
Question 35: What is the significance of ‘the departure’ (η apostasia) in II Thess 2:3 having a definite article and no qualifying words when every other use of the noun or verb tells what a departure is from? Why didn’t Paul use ‘parapipto’ for falling away from the faith as he did in Hebrews 6:6?
Question 36: What are the differences between the church and Israel, the church and the elect in different ages, tribulations and the tribulation period, and the trumpet of God and the trumpets of angels?
Question 37: If the rapture and glorious appearing occur on the same day as post-trib say, where is the time to fit in the Judgment Seat of Christ (II Cor. 5:10), the presenting of the church to Jesus Christ (Eph. 5:27), and the marriage of Christ to the church? How can these three fit into one hour?
Question 38: Jesus said that some will escape the tribulation. How can we escape it if we must enter it?
Question 39: If the church is not in Daniel’s 69 weeks, why should it be found in the 70th week, which is the 7 years tribulation period?
Question 40: Write out the time line of Revelation, with scriptures, agreed on by post-tribulationists?
Question 41: Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven if we won’t go there as post-trib think?
Question 42: What is the purpose of the tribulation for the church? None. To try nations & prepare Israel.
Question 43: Since the church is united to Christ, and those in the tribulation come under the Antichrist’s and Satan’s authority, why would Christ place Himself under Satan’s authority?
Question 44: What NT scripture tells the church how to endure the tribulation’s sufferings? None.
Question 45: Would it be God’s will for the church to submit to the antichrist’s government? No.
Question 46: Is the antichrist’s government ministers of God? No.
Question 47: If the church enters the tribulation, which part of the church is raptured to heaven, and which part of the church stays on the earth according to Matthew 25:34 and post-tribulationism?
Question 48: Who will come first, Christ at the rapture or antichrist? Who are you looking for? Why?
Question 49: Are the 144,000 Israelites part of the church? Why?
Q50: Why would God discuss the Whore on earth in the tribulation & not discuss the church on earth?
Question 51: Explain how I Thess 1:10; 5:4,5,9; II Thess 2:3,13; Rev. 3:10 allow a Post-trib. rapture? Question 52: Why would a bridegroom want to punish his new bride? Would you do this? Question 53: Why would Paul tell the Thessalonians not to be shaken in mind or troubled (II Thess 2:2) if they were to enter the tribulation? The tribulation would trouble anyone. Question 54: Can you prove that ‘the departure’ (2:3) & ‘taken out of the way’ (2:7) is not the church? Question 55: Please answer these problems with post-tribulationism:
3) Post-tribulationism misunderstands the purposes of the tribulation period.
6) Post-tribulationism does not explain the differences between the rapture and the second coming passages. The burden of proof is on post-tribulationism to reconcile these to their plan.
7) Post-tribulationism’s strongest argument is the argument from silence.
The contrast between the rapture and glorious appearing passages is between joy and judgment, deliverance and discipline, good news and bad news. 8) Post-tribulationism is logically flawed and inconsistent.
9) Post-tribulationism is inconsistent with literal interpretation.
10) Post-tribulationism blurs the distinction between Israel and the church.
11) Post-tribulationism is inconsistent with the doctrine of Imminence.
13) Post-tribulationism fails to harmonize the full body of Biblical Data. 1503

[missmuffet]

That is a lot of questions I would like to ask them where they get the idea in Scripture that if everyone goes into the seven year tribulation the Christians will be sealed or protected from all the disasters and blood shed that will happen.

[Last Daze]

Quite a zerg rush there.  It's probably best just to quote a couple of verses to reflect on:

• But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.  Hebrews 5:14
• "Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”  Matthew 11:19b

What you or I think is going to happen is irrelevant.  How we act now, and in the future, will determine if we have been wise or foolish.

[Diaste]

On 9/20/2017 at 11:47 AM, missmuffet said:

That is a lot of questions I would like to ask them where they get the idea in Scripture that if everyone goes into the seven year tribulation the Christians will be sealed or protected from all the disasters and blood shed that will happen.

They will not be sheltered except the Lord watches over us. Only a small portion of the last week is Gods wrath. This we will never see, but the disasters and bloodshed? This is our moment to overcome, to battle and win the day. If we are in Christ we cannot lose.

[Still Alive]

Well, I'm a mid-tribulationist so I'll just lurk to see how this goes.

[JoeChan82]

At the very base or foundation of every question asked in the original post is this question; what is the seven years of tribulation?  I submit that the term seven years of tribulation (normally split into 3 1/2 years tribulation and the 3 1/2 years of great tribulation) has been misidentified.  The correct term is Daniel's 70th week.  During this week we see persecution against the saints. Once the 7th angel sounds, we see God's wrath against the wicked.  God's wrath is not the same as the saints' tribulation.  Not the same.

The second foundational question concerns the doctrine of the imminent return of Christ.  Soon return? Yes. Promised return? Yes. Returning at any moment without any other prophecies fulfilled? Nope.  So if being gathered out of tribulation before the wrath of God falls isn't a blessed hope, I don't know what is.

 

[Last Daze]

On 5/16/2018 at 2:47 PM, JoeChan82 said:

So if being gathered out of tribulation before the wrath of God falls isn't a blessed hope, I don't know what is.

The blessed hope is for all who are Christ's.  It's the assurance (hope) of eternal life.  It's the putting on of immortality and being with Him forever.  It's experienced by the dead in Christ first, then those who are alive at that time.

[Adstar]

On 9/21/2017 at 3:37 AM, KiwiChristian said:

Questions for Post-Tribulationists.

 

Really you should not be swamping people with so many questions. Most people seeing such a long list will simply walk away..  But i will have a go at your first 10 questions..

Oh i believe the Rapture will happen on the day of the second coming of our LORD Jesus Christ

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Question 1: Show me the rapture mentioned in Revelation 19:11-21 or Zechariah 14:1-5? It’s not there.

Why do you ask us to do this when it is not there.. Why do you assume that every prophecy of the return of the LORD Jesus Christ must include a rapture revelation.. This is what you are assuming by asking this question.. My response is that it is wrong to assume that every prophecy of the Lords return must include a rapture revelation...

 

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Question 2: Show me the church mentioned in one OT or NT passage discussing the tribulation?

The fact that we Christians are to suffer tribulation is clearly revealed by the LORD Jesus Himself::

John 16: KJV

33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

There are many more verses speaking about Christians suffering persecution for their faith in Jesus and being hated on and being killed for their witness of the LORD..

 

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Question 3: How can the rapture and glorious appearing be on the same day when the rapture day is unknown and the glorious appearing day will be known? How can a day be both known and unknown?

The day of the second coming of the LORD Jesus is not known.. No one shall know the day or the hour of His return..

 

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Question 4: The open door into heaven with a voice, trumpet, and catching up to heaven occurs in both Rev 4:1 and I Thess 4:16-18.Why do post-tribs reject this as the pre-trib. rapture? Open door Rev 19:11.

 

Revelation 4: KJV

1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

Clearly this is John personally being caught up into heaven to be shown the things that must happen hereafter.. To receive the Prophecies that followed from this point in the book of Revelation.. To see it as a rapture prophecy to me is totally unfounded..  So i reject this because it is not even a rapture prophecy.. It is showing how the Apostle John was raised up in the spirit into heaven while he was on the island of patmos all those many centuries ago..

Now for your second verse quotation:::

1 Thessalonians 4 KJV

16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Where in the above verses does it give any timing for this happening??  Yes it shows the rapture "" we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds"" But it in now way states that this will be a pre-tribulation happening..  It just describes the event,  So why even quote these verses as support for the timing of the rapture when none of them give any timing and the first one is not even about the rapture??

 

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Q5: If you accept the 2 witnesses are caught up to heaven in Rev 11:12 by ‘Come up hither’ why not rapture in 4:1?

Both these Witnesses will suffer tribulation.. They will be executed and will suffer death for their witnessing of the truth of the LORD.. If pre-tribulation was true why would these two witnesses suffer persecution and be executed for their witness for God in the end times?  This same scripture clearly shows two Christians suffering tribulations in the end times.. Two witnesses who were not saved from tribulation but will suffer it unto death...

 

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Question 6: Show me the church on earth from Revelation 6-18? It is not there because it is in heaven.

The Book of Revelation in chapter 13 it shows what will be happening during the times of the anti-christ and his false prophet. In this chapter is tells of people being requiored to worship the image of the beast and people being requiored to take the Mark of the beast note those who refuse will be executed.. please read::

Revelation 13: KJV

15 "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. {16} And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: {17} And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

So according to the pre- tribulation doctrine none of the people executed here for refusing the worship the image of the beast and not recieving the mark of the beast will be Christians because they will all be already gone from the earth.. But we read on in Revelation chapter 20::

Revelation 20: KJV

4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

So here we have resurrected Saints who will exist during the times of the worship of the image of the beast and the receiving of the Mark of the beast because they where beheaded for their witness of Jesus...  These people who refused to worship the beast and take the mark and ended up being executed for refusing are clearly Christian Saints who will be on earth and will will be executed ( suffer tribulation) for their witness of Jesus...  So without a doubt there will be Christians way after the Rev 6- 18 verse you reference..

 

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Question 7: If the church is not raptured until Rev 20:4, as post-tribulationists think, then how could the church be in heaven in Rev 19:7-11, before Christ’s glorious appearing?

As i have already stated I believe the rapture will happen on the day of the second coming of the LORD Jesus..

 

Revelation 19: KJV

{7} Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. {9} And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. {10} And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. {11} And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war."

Again the above verses are not stating when the marriage supper of the lamb happens...  I have no idea where you are getting the pre-tribulation rapture out of this? 

 

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Question 8: Do you agree that the 24 elders in heaven represent the raptured church age Christians?

No.. They could well all be from over the many centuries.. Indeed 12 of them are probably the Apostles of Jesus who all died most by persecution/tribulation..

 

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If no, then who are they and what proof do you have of their identity?

I have no proof of their identity.. And i don't need to have it because their existence does not prove they where raptured whilst alive.. They could be Saints who died..

 

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Question 9: Do you agree that the armies in fine linen accompanying Christ at His return are church age Christians? If no, then who are they and what proof do you have of their identity?

Yes they are Christians.. But they are resurrected and raptured up into the clouds to meet Jesus on the day of His return and they are going to be coming right back down to earth with Jesus as his feet touch the ground on the mount of olives.. They will rule the nations with Jesus for 1000 years as stated in the book of Revelation..

 

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Question 10: Who are you looking for, Christ or antichrist? Why would Christ want His bride to look for the antichrist?

So that keeping their eyes open and seeing all these things they can then look up into the sky and know that their redemption draws near as the scripture says::

My LORD Jesus spoke of the terrible tribulation times in the Gospel of John::

Luke 21: KJV

25 "¶ And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; {26} Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. {27} And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. {28} And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

If the pre-tribulation doctrine was correct there would be no Christians on planet earth looking up knowing that their redemption was drawing near.. They would be up in heaven partying.. But alas there is no pre-tribulation and Christians will be down on earth seeing these events and they will be looking up and knowing that the day of the redemption is near..

 

Oh thats 10 questions responded to.. I might respond to more but i really don't think i need to.. The pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is just not true and it is a dangerous escapist doctrine that works to stop people mentally preparing for the very real possibility that they might well face real tribulation..

[JoeChan82]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

The blessed hope is for all who are Christ's.  It's the assurance (hope) of eternal life.  It's the putting on of immortality and being with Him forever.  It's experienced by the dead in Christ first, then those who are alive at that time.

I agree with your answer here.  I was reacting to those who say that if we aren't raptured out before the tribulation starts, then we have no blessed hope.  Without rehashing everything, I have come to believe that the "seven years of tribulation" is a misleading definition of Daniel's 70th week.  I don't think that the traditional division of this week into 3 1/2 years of tribulation and 3 1/2 years of great tribulation is right.  I divide it into tribulation, great tribulation, and the wrath of God.  I know the whole thing does last for 7 years, but I divide it by the events described during the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials.  So I think we are gathered out before God's wrath falls, but not until after the tribulation of those days.  It is fine with me if you don't see it that way.  Almost all of my friends disagree with me on this subject.  Thank you for your reply!

[Last Daze]

41 minutes ago, JoeChan82 said:

 I was reacting to those who say that if we aren't raptured out before the tribulation starts, then we have no blessed hope.

I understand and agree with you here.  I was just wanting to point out what the blessed hope is.  It's for all who are Christ's.  It's not a "free pass" that applies only to a certain few at a certain point in time as some make it out to be.