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For those who missed today's rapture . . . and flat moon

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There is an article that goes into it with interesting detail here:

https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/stars/are-stars-lining-september-23-lords-return/?utm_source=articlesmedia&utm_medium=email&utm_content=featurebutton1&utm_campaign=20170923&mc_cid=59ecea6a0f&mc_eid=19b4377170

Also, I cannot help but wonder, about the alignment of stars on the dome over the flat earth. If anyone from that camp knows . . . 

Is there a dome over the top, or could it be a cylindrical cover, and we just can't see the corners, because they are not sharp enough to leave noticeable lines? Also, did I hear that some think the moon is a disk, not a sphere also?

I was thinking about that yesterday, and took pictures of a que ball and a jar lid:

moonball.gif moondisk.gif

I guess I was feeling mischievous. It is interesting to note though, how the shape of a ball, in 3D space, has shadows and light parts, that resemble how the moon looks in our sky, compared with how a disk looks, as it changes angles in relation to the sun.

 

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Quote: ". The most important part of Jesus’ message here was not that we attempt to figure out when it will be, but to be ready. Many of the people who let me know they disagree with my understanding of these events seem to forget this. So I will ask the question again: are you ready?"

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14 minutes ago, hmbld said:

Quote: ". The most important part of Jesus’ message here was not that we attempt to figure out when it will be, but to be ready. Many of the people who let me know they disagree with my understanding of these events seem to forget this. So I will ask the question again: are you ready?"

I'm already dead....

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31 minutes ago, hmbld said:

Nice pics!

Thanks, I considered doing them at night, with an artificial light, some distance away, but was too lazy to set it up. I figured:

"Why not just actually use the Sun itself, the same source that I believe illuminated our moon?"

Of course, that did not produce a nice dark sky background, since it is difficult to catch the Sun shining at night time. Maybe I could have used a black back drop, and hung the ball from a string. However, I just found it too easy, to walk outside in front of my house, hold a camera in one hand and a cue ball resting on top of  my hairy hand.

I drew crude circles on it, with a Sharpie, so we can see how the circles look on a spherical surface, and they move around to the sides. As you can see, the go more toward elliptical as the move toward the sides, and appear more circular on the part that faces the observer.

This is similar to what we see with a telescope.

mooncraters.jpg

Of course the other thing you notices, is that on the bright side, the craters are filled in as if the light is coming at them straight on. In the area, where the craters are near the dark side, there seem to be shadows cast, as it the light is coming from the side.

If the moon is a disk, then these are the sorts of things, that one would expect to see, if God were trying to deceive people into thinking the moon was a ball shaped object.

 

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I guess I got lost on the way to my computer this morning....when did the 'flat moon' theory come about?  I also note that Planet Niburu didn't kill us yet.  ^_^

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1 minute ago, MorningGlory said:

I guess I got lost on the way to my computer this morning....when did the 'flat moon' theory come about?  I also note that Planet Niburu didn't kill us yet.  ^_^

Oh it did.  They will spend all day tomorrow telling us that Niburu hit us spiritually, in the spirit realm...   Just like the world ended "spiritually"  back in 2010. :rolleyes:

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This is hilarious. I've been many times to Australia and New Zealand. It is a long and boring trip. Once I went by boat.

I can attest that the big dipper is upside down in Aus/NZ, and the stars are all out of kilter compared to the view from Oregon. Oh, and yes, the water does go the other way around down the plug-hole after you cross the equator. You can even follow the lunar calendar (my watch had one) and it goes differently in the southern hemisphere than the northern one. Since many airplanes now do the polar routes, I cannot find anything to support the flat-earth approach. I've flown small airplanes in both hemispheres and they seem to act just the same around the gravity of the earth center of mass. Cyclones go clockwise, and anti-cyclones go anti-clockwise in the southern hemisphere , which is opposite to the northern hemisphere cyclonic directions.

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On 9/25/2017 at 10:42 AM, Justin Adams said:

This is hilarious.

What exactly?

 

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I can attest that the big dipper is upside down in Aus/NZ

What does this mean?

 

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and the stars are all out of kilter compared to the view from Oregon.

What does 'out of kilter' mean exactly?

 

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Oh, and yes, the water does go the other way around down the plug-hole after you cross the equator.

What does this mean? 

ps. check the shape of the basin :cool:

 

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You can even follow the lunar calendar (my watch had one) and it goes differently in the southern hemisphere than the northern one.

Again, can you be more specific?

 

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Since many airplanes now do the polar routes

Post a map of these 'Polar Routes'...?

 

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I cannot find anything to support the flat-earth approach.

Here ya go...

 

Flat: 

1.  "The salar de Uyuni in the Bolivian Andes is the largest salt flat on Earth, exhibiting LESS THAN 1 M OF VERTICAL RELIEF over an area of 9000 km2" ..."Longer wavelengths in the DEM [Digital Elevation Model] correlate well with mapped gravity, suggesting a connection between broad-scale salar topography and the geoid similar to that seen over the oceans."

Borsa A. A., et al: Topography of the salar de Uyuni, Bolivia from kinematic GPS; Geophysical Journal International Volume 172, Issue 1, p. 31-40 http://gji.oxfordjournals.org/content/172/1/31.full

This is a Geometrical Flat Plane.

You can have a myriad of Topographical Features on a Sphere: Mountains, Ridges, Saddles, Spurs, Depressions, ect ect; Ya know what you CAN'T HAVE (??) ...

"A Geometrical Flat Plane" 

And this one is over *"9000 km2"!!!!*

Therefore, how can you Blindly Adhere to a Sphere that has one of it's Foundational Tenets "Vertical Drop" and yet at the SAME TIMEhave a FLAT PLANE with less than *1 METER VERTICAL DROP* over 9000 km2, pray tell??

** The Entire Spinning Globe Charade is actually OVER right here. 

 

 

2.  Sea Sparrow (NATO): 

"Bistatic, semiactive seekers in the nose of a missile receive a reflected signal from a target that is being “illuminated” with an RF signal transmitted from a fire control radar on a stand-off platform (e.g., aircraft, ship). Such systems REQUIRE that the platform maintain LINE OF SIGHT (LOS) to the target until it is engaged by the missile. Ship-based standard missile (SM) and NATO Seasparrow AAW missiles are examples of such a semiactive mode." http://m.eet.com/media/1111959/819_radar3.pdf
 
The target is "Illuminated" with a 2 inch Pencil Beam (RF) which has to be maintained "Painted" on the target until detonation. At a more than generous 80 Feet Elevation above Sea LEVEL (Tracking Radar Height), the target should be hidden behind 385 Feet of Curvature.
 
Please explain how you can have Line of Site (LOS) 35 Miles Away on a "Spinning-Ball" by showing how an 2" RF Pencil Beam can penetrate 385 Feet (117 METERS) of Target Hidden Height through a WALL OF WATER 24 MILES in Length...?? (ps. 35 miles is "Low Balling": (The 'Official' Max Effective Range is Classified ---- i.e. it's MUCH MUCH greater than 35 Miles!).

 

 

3.  Flight:  Since the Earth is, as we're TOLD, a Sphere 25,000 miles in circumference... radius 3959 miles, then Pilots traveling @ a typical cruising speed of 500 mph --- to simply maintain altitude, would constantly have to adjust their altitude downwards, (to Compensate for the Curvature) and descend 2,777 feet over half a mile every minute !!!

500 miles2 x 8 inches/12 inches = 166,666 Feet of curvature ---Total Drop needed in one hour to Maintain Altitude.

166,666 feet/60 minutes = 2777 feet per minute altitude descent to Maintain Altitude.

A flippin Roller Coaster would be placid serenity(!!) in comparison.  The nose of the plane on a typical flight would never get above horizontal, save for takeoff. 

 

 

4. Not "Spinning":

For the Coriolis Effect to Exist, you MUST HAVE (i.e., the "Necessary Conditions"): 1. Two differing Frames of Reference (One Rotating Coordinate System (Non-Inertial) --- The Earth  and One Non-Rotating Coordinate System (Inertial)-- The Atmosphere ...and anything in it)...

"CC.12 The Coriolis Effect:

When set in motion, freely moving objects, including AIR [Atmosphere] and WATER masses [Clouds/Water Vapor], move in straight paths while the Earth continues to

                                                                                 ROTATE INDEPENDENTLY.

Because freely moving objects ARE NOT carried with the Earth as it Rotates, they are subject to an apparent deflection called the “Coriolis effect.” To an observer rotating with the Earth, freely moving objects that travel in a straight line appear to travel in a curved path on the Earth."

Segar, Douglas A; Introduction to Ocean Sciences, 2nd Edition: Critical Concept Reminders -- CC.12 The Coriolis Effect (pp. 313, 314, 323, 324), ISBN: 978-0-393-92629-3, 2007.

http://www.wwnorton.com/college/geo/oceansci/cc/cc12.html

 

In other words, anything not "Tethered" to the Earth is 'Freely Moving'.

2. The Object in question not Physically Attached to the Rotating Coordinate System appears to deflect (i.e., Moves Independently of the Rotating Coordinate System) from the vantage point anywhere on the rotating coordinate system -- aka: the 'Coriolis Effect'.

So, if the Coriolis Effect Exists (with Respect to the Earth), then a Flight from Charlotte North Carolina to LA (Non-Stop) traveling @ 500 mph (Air Speed) --- with both locations roughly 35th degree N Latitude, (i.e., both 'allegedly' spinning @ 860 mph ) should be ~ *1.5 hours!!* (But it's ~ *4.5 hrs!!*)

Charlotte to LA Flight: Air Speed 500 mph. Ground Speed: 500 mph + 860 mph "Alleged" rotation speed = 1360 mph.

So in my example:

1. Two differing Frames of Reference: (Earth and Atmosphere -- and everything in it) 2. The Plane in the Atmosphere is "Freely Moving" (not attached) to the Rotating Coordinate System and is flying in a straight path. In other words, Based on the Law of Non-Contradiction each (The Coriolis Effect and the Charlotte Flight at 1.5 hours) are either: Both TRUE or Both FALSE.

The Flight is most assuredly FALSE!! 

In conclusion, the Earth is *NOT* "Spinning"; ERGO..."The Ball" goes by way of the DoDo Bird or you're a Stationary Ball Geo-Centrist. Voila.

The only way the above can be refuted is if you're of the position that the Atmosphere 'spins' with the Earth. So then:

1. Please explain how the Coriolis Effect can EXIST when the NECESSARY CONDITIONS for it to EXIST are Two Differing Coordinate Systems (Reference Frames) -- One Rotating --"Earth" and One Non-Rotating-- the "Atmosphere" and everything in it...?

2. Show the Experiment where 'Gases'/Gas rotate in Lock-Step with a Rotating Solid Body just 5 cm above the surface, then provide the mechanism....?

3. Please explain "EAST/North/South" Surface Winds...? ;) 

(Bonus Question: How you can have different wind speeds and directions simultaneously at differing elevations of the atmosphere while the atmosphere is collectively 'spinning' East, in Unison...?)

btw, These are Contradictory Statements:

1. The Atmosphere 'spins' in Lock-Step with the Earth.

2. The Existence of "EAST/North/South" Surface Winds.

Which do you think is FALSE?

MOREOVER, following the 'yarn'... Every Cubic Nanometer of atmosphere traveling horizontally from the equator to the center of rotationMUST HAVE differing Tangential Speeds; and every Cubic Nanometer of atmosphere rising in elevation from each respective horizontal Cubic Nanometer of atmosphere MUST HAVE differing Tangential Speeds (In fact, the higher the elevation... the faster they'll need to travel to keep up !!); and all of this rolling along at differing speeds... in Unison, EAST?? :blink:

This is so far beyond Preposterous Ludicrousness Absurdity, 'evolution' (whatever that is??) and Multiverses... are BLUSHING!!

AND, does anyone know how far up this 'Increasing Speed' Rope-A-Dope Fairytale Spinning Atmosphere ENDS?? I'd like to see that...it'll give a Whole New Meaning to Guillotine "WIND SHEAR"!! Goodness Gracious People.  

ps. Are the Gas Molecules attached to each other by: Velcro?? Glue?? Pixie Dust?? Other?? And where is the energy coming from for the continuous "Shot in the Arm" injections needed to keep each successive Cubic Nanometer of atmosphere higher elevation brethren in tow?

Alice in Wonderland is more tenable than the "Spinning-Ball" religion.

 

 

5.  Vacuum of Space:

1. How do you have a GAS PRESSURE (Atmospheric Pressure) WITHOUT a Container...."TO BEGIN WITH" ?? When...

"The "PRESSURE OF A GAS" is the force that the gas exerts on the WALLS OF IT'S CONTAINER". 
http://chemistry.elmhurst.edu/vchembook/180pressure.html


Basically, explain how you can have a "Tire Pressure"... 

                      WITHOUT THE TIRE !!! :blink:

2. How can you have a Vacuum (Outer-Space) attached to a Non-Vacuum (Earth) WITHOUT a Physical Barrier in the same system simultaneously, without Bludgeoning to a Bloody Pulp... the Laws of Entropy (2LOT) ??

a.  In other words, How are you still Breathing and adhering to the fairytale 'Narrative'... BOTH, at the same time??

b.  Then, Define the Law of Non-Contradiction...?

c.  Then, please list each fairytale associated with "Outer-Space" that gets taken out back to the Woodshed and Bludgeoned Senseless as a result of the fairytale "Vacuum of Space" VAPORIZING....?

3. Have you ever heard: "Nature Abhors a Vacuum", by chance?  Why is that...?

 

If you can't provide Coherent/Substantive Falsifications of the 5 PROOFS above then your Globe Earth Position is UNTENABLE.

It's just that simple.  thumbsup.gif

 

 

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I've flown small airplanes in both hemispheres and they seem to act just the same around the gravity of the earth center of mass.

Which 'gravity'... Einstienian or Newtonian ??

a.  Is gravity a Force?
b.  Is 'gravity' a Scientific Law or Scientific Theory?
c.  What is The CAUSE of 'gravity'...?

 

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Cyclones go clockwise, and anti-cyclones go anti-clockwise in the southern hemisphere , which is opposite to the northern hemisphere cyclonic directions.

Scientifically Validate 'The Mechanism' (i.e., "The Cause" of the Effect)...

a.  What Phenomenon was Observed...?
b.  Post the Formal Scientific Hypothesis then EXPERIMENT that validates your claim...?
c.  Highlight the "Independent Variable" that was used in the TEST...?
d.  Post the Null Hypothesis that was Rejected/Falsified...?

 

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On 9/23/2017 at 2:26 PM, MorningGlory said:

I guess I got lost on the way to my computer this morning....when did the 'flat moon' theory come about? 

It depends.  If you're of the position that the Moon Reflects Sunlight, then you got a BIG Problem...

1.  It's not a "Scientific Theory", it's a Contingent Necessary Fact...

2.  If the Moon is a Sphere (Convex), How in the World can it Reflect Sunlight/any light uniformly

It is IMPOSSIBLE for a Convex Object (The Moon "allegedly") to UNIFORMLY REFLECT LIGHT EQUALLY IN ALL DIRECTIONS (i.e., to have any angle of incidence), only FLAT or Concave surfaces can do so.  If a surface is convex, then every ray of light points in a direct line perpendicular to the surface resulting in ZERO Uniform Reflection!

Crude but Practical example: Remove the 'facets' from a Disco Ball and shine a light on it...tell us what happens?

 

regards

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      Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

      Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

      Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 

      Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.



      2nd woe resurrection/rapture. Babylon is judged.

      Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

      Revelation 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

      Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

      Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

      Revelation 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

      Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 

      Revelation 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

      Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

      Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

      Revelation 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 

      Revelation 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

      Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

      Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held



      3rd woe God's wrath

      Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 

      Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

      Revelation 6::17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
    • By omharris
      I primarily use the NASB, but occasionally I find it deficient; I will insert other translations if they can clarify the context. Those translations will be duly noted.
      Chapter one was an appropriate greeting, but chapter two stands alone and begins to immediately address fears that have come as the result of some false teaching.
      This theme was not a new to Paul as he had written to the Christ-followers in Thessalonica on a previous occasion.
      1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 NASB 13) But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16) For the Lord, Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17) Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
      Considering the years between these two letters, the new members that had been added to the church body, and the addition of some false teachings, the fear has had a chance to creep in. I see the effects of false teachings frequently in the church bodies I have had dealings with, as people espouse things they know so little about; all the while continuing to cloud the issue.
      So let's dissect the passages and see if we can understand all that Paul is trying to say.
      2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 NASB 1) Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
      “with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,”
      Coming – is the Greek word parousia; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked.) Strong's concordance.
      In the explanation above I see two distinctly different things.
      One being Jehovah's return in the clouds to catch His church away. This catching away is called the harpazo, but it is also known as the advent or return.
      The second possible understanding is this idea of the punishment of Jerusalem or the wicked. This concept pertains to the wrath of God being poured out. One of the keys to understanding the difference between Jesus return for His church and His coming as the conquering Messiah hangs on this phrase - " the day of the Lord.” Using the NASB concordance, the expression shows up in 22 verses. 18 of those references are found in the Old Testament. Since the Tenach is designed for a Jewish audience then the language and references are expressly Jewish; that means that the phrase – the day of the Lord, is almost exclusively about the return of the Messiah.
      Of the four verses left and found in the New Testament, three of them are exclusively about the catching away of the church. This catching away is that time when Jesus comes back in the clouds for His church, and they will be caught up to meet Him in the air. 2Peter 3:10 leans more toward the time of the end, as it tells us that, “the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” While all of these things are a part of the seven-year period the implications are that this will happen almost all at once when Jesus returns to the earth for the final time. You see, this is one of those areas that are not that black and white.
      So, let's see if the context of the passage answers the question about when this event will happen.
      While I understand that Paul was addressing the body of believers in Thessalonica (a primarily Jewish audience,) these words also apply to us. I do not hear this complaint or question anymore, but I am aware that many do believe that Christ has already returned. If that is the case, what are we doing and why are we wasting our time?
      But Christ has not already returned. How do I know that? Well there are markers, or some might think of them as guideposts along the way, and Paul spells them out.
      2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 NASB 3) Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4) who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
      “The apostasy comes first.”
      Since apostasy means a falling away, I ask you, has that happened? Absolutely, and at an exponential rate.
      “and the man of lawlessness is revealed,”
      I want to show you some alternate readings.
      This second selection is from the Complete Jewish Bible, and it translates this passage entirely different from anyone else. Why is this significant? Because even the Muslims have prophecies, and one of them describes such a man;
      2 Thessalonians 2:3 Darby Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because it will not be unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;
      2 Thessalonians 2:3 CJB Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom.
      A man who is a descendant of Aaron –
      The priests were to come from the lineage of Aaron. Since we know that the temple will be rebuilt, then practically every preparation would have to be made at this point, for a high priest to be installed. He then would be the one to enter the Holy of Holies and sprinkle the blood of the lamb.
      The Muslim prophecies tell us that this Jew will reject the Torah, pay homage to the Mahdi, and follow him.
      Do you grasp the depth of this action? Many who have esteemed this Jew enough to appoint him as the high priest over the new temple will be deceived, turn from the true God, and follow his actions as they too will bow to the Mahdi in worship. This Mahdi appears to be the Islamic religious leader that will soon be saying peace peace. Most of this takes place 1260 days into the time of wrath upon the earth.
      I am always concerned that people will see my words as unbelievable.
      If, you are a follower of Jesus Christ, then, you are under a mandate to study to show not only, yourself, to be approved by God, but to judge the words being said to you, as to whether they are true or not. You are not doing this type of study to bash people, although I sometimes think that many should shut their mouths, but you are studying these things so that you can know what is right.
      Let me show you an example: I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, regardless of the poor choice of words we traditionally use. Although there is a voluminous amount of those in opposition to this understanding, I did my homework and became even more thoroughly convinced that Jesus is coming back for His church that is waiting for Him, and, He is going to do so before God's wrath is poured out upon the earth.
      Specific reasons why I believe in a pre-wrath rapture.
      Matthew 3:7 NASB But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
      The obvious thing I see here is that Jesus just acknowledged that it is purposeful to flee from the wrath, and, that there is wrath coming.
      Luke 21:23 NASB ... for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
      Here we can see that the intended target is the land and these people. Now the statement, "o this people" is relatively generic and needs some clarity. Luke 21:24 NASB tells us that “they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations;”
      It is easy enough to see that a part of this fulfillment comes upon Israel and it's people, the Jews. However, pay attention, and you can see one other group, the Gentiles. The Gentiles and the nations are the same. If you are not a Jew, and you are a follower of Christ, then you have been engrafted into the vine and no longer fall under the category of being a Gentile in God's eyes.
      Those with a veil over their eyes will not get this concept. Since we are “in Christ” then we are part of the church and not subject to this wrath.
      Romans 1:18 NASB For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
      What is evident to me is the terminology, the wrath of God. Pay attention to the words being used and upon whom they are directed. Romans 1:18 can be taken as a somewhat broad spectrum statement.
      An example of this broad spectrum idea – I know a man who came to church for a time and did all the appropriate things. He came down front, cried his eyes out, made sorrowful and repentant statements. Why he even got baptized in a swimming pool as a symbol of this new and changed life he wanted to live. That didn't last long. Does he belong to God and is therefore not going to be subject to this wrath because he is part of the church. I do not know, because any fruit he produces is rotten and stinks before it falls off the tree. This pattern has been going on for years.
      Ephesians 2:3 NASB Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
      The Apostle Paul taught that we were formerly children of wrath, and no longer subject to the “wrath of God.”
      1 Thessalonians 1:10 NASB 10) and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
      1 Thessalonians 1:10 is one of the most specific examples that Paul gave us. Since we are in Christ, Jesus has rescued us from the wrath that is to come.
      1 Thessalonians 5:9 NASB 9) For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
      Many think that we deserve punishment. Well, that might have been true, but as followers of Christ, we are of those who have agreed to and accepted His salvation. You see, you need to have a firm grasp on what Jesus did. I am continually trying to remind people that all sins were forgiven – past, present, and future. Then what are people being punished for? Look at what Colossians 3:5-6 tells us,
      Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. 6) For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, NASB
      Simply put, you either follow Jesus, or you follow the god of this world, Satan. He will go to an eternal punishment, as will all those who choose to follow him. This punishment, as many want to believe, is not the end-all statement, as God is a merciful God beyond everything else; ask Jonah. And that is why we have the sheep and goats of Matthew 25. Take the time to study that.
      Revelation 6:14-17 NASB 14) The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15) Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16) and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17) for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
      There are three things I want you to see here. Verse 15 gives us a description of some of the people affected by what is happening: kings of the earth; great men; commanders; the rich and strong, and every slave and free man. No one upon the earth is left unscathed by what is coming.
      In verse 16 we see them crying out to be hid from the presence of “Him who sits on the throne, AND from the wrath of the Lamb. This lamb is Jesus Christ. Since I used an example from the Revelation, let me point something out to you. This entire book is a Revelation of Jesus Christ. Even the rich, in this scenario, understood that God played a hand in this, and at the same time, they are acknowledging Jesus. It's all about Jesus.
      And the last thing, although I have already intimated it, is that this wrath is coming from God/Jesus.
      Since we are going to be like Bereans, a people who had enough sense to verify that what Paul was teaching was right, what then do we use as a basis for what is true? Keep in mind, that the Bereans did not have Bibles, they had some scrolls. Those scrolls were so valued that only a limited number of priests could handle them, and so the Torah and Tanakh were read aloud. This idea of scrolls changes the whole idea of Bible study. The Bereans had no New Testament, it was being spoken in their ears by Paul and lived out right in front of them. I, on the other hand, have over thirty translations of the Bible on my computer, and over forty commentaries that I can glean from. I have no excuses.
      The answer to the question is The Word of God. Now, since we know that there are errors across translations, is it wise to merely open the NIV for example, read it, and then say, “this is how that is supposed to be understood!” NO, because, as I said, there are errors. (Do not for a moment think that these errors are on God's part, as God's wisdom has been substantiated by His ability to get His message across plainly to those who choose to pursue this wisdom.)
      So, what am I saying to you? Be open but alert; trust the Holy Spirit to guide you; judge everything against the word of God, and, remove yourself, if you can, from false teachers. They will corrupt you with the simplest of things, such as David conquering Goliath when David was only four foot tall. That is not even close to the terminology used in the descriptions of David. King Saul, who knew David well for David was his ARMOR bearer, called him a youth. But what does that mean? Are these things critical to the story? NO, but if you are willing to build false images about the nature and character of David, what else will a false teacher do with God and His word.
      I can tell you what some will do, for I have experienced this first hand. These false teachers send everyone that comes to the Great White throne judgment to hell. There is nothing about that scenario that definitively points to that happening; these same teachers refuse to see that Matthew 25 and the story of the sheep and the goats, is just another picture of the Great White Throne. In other words, they will twist the gospel so tightly that in time, you will not be able to understand what is true.

       

       

       
    • By patrick jane
      I'd like to move this video to my new thread Biblical, Enclosed Flat Earth and Firmament after approval. Thank you.
       
      3 Minutes
       
    • By Mary8
      The Feasts Fulfilled
      from 18 Feb 1991ml   I have made some changes.  See end for notes.

      Passover
         Jews in ancient Israel were required to go to Jerusalem to celebrate three feasts, Passover, Pentecost, and in the autumn, Trumpets.
         Jesus fulfilled Passover which occurred on a full moon, the 14th day of the month Nisan. 
         Passover celebrates the Exodus from Egypt, which bespeaks salvation, escape, deliverance.
         Nisan 1 commences at the New Moon, as do all months on the Jewish calendar.  This month should mark the beginning of the year by Jews (rather than in September/October as they presently observe, the Civil Year.)
         Ex. 12:1-3:  "And the Lord spoke unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, This month shall be unto you the beginning of months:  it shall be the first month of the year to you.  Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb .... a lamb for an house."
         Jesus, the slain Lamb, is the only acceptable sacrifice, and believers trust in the Blood of the Lamb and are thereby saved.

      Unleavened Bread
         Jesus fulfilled the Feast of Unleavened Bread which commenced the same day as Passover, on the 14th day of Nisan, and it was a seven day period of eating bread without leavening, which represents sin.  This feast was fulfilled before God only, as Jesus, the sinless one was lifted up before God.

      Firstfruits
         Jesus fulfilled Firstfruits by arising from the grave on the third day after His death.  The term Firstfruits refers to the first sheaves of barley which were ready to cut and Jesus's resurrection is the  fulfillment.  [Lev. 23:10.]  Many saved people were also resurrected from their graves and walked about the Jerusalem area at the time of Jesus's resurrection.  This first group of resurrected saints compares to the Rapture of believers as the world goes on around the event.
         I believe the Rapture of the Church is shown in the following Scriptures.  Jesus the grain, died, brought forth much fruit, and His Church is likened to a harvest of grain.  Jesus often likened Himself to a husbandman also, and here He is waiting for the precious fruit, the gathering of the harvest of souls.
         John 12:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
         James 5:7  Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
         The barley and wheat harvests in Israel are the early crops, with the earliest, the barley harvest completed in April, and the wheat completed in May.  This year of 2018, Passover commences Friday evening, March 30, and the counting of the days, Lag b'Omer, and Omer 1 starts on March 31.  Jesus arose on Firstfruits, "the morrow after the Sabbath," Sunday, and in 2018, Firstfruits is Sunday, April 1, through Saturday, April 7.   The Lag b'Omer ends on the 50th day, the morrow after the Sabbath, which is Pentecost.  Lev. 23.  Centuries ago, the Jewish calendar was changed, and Pentecost was shifted from always being on a Sunday 'the morrow after the Sabbath,' to Sivan 6.  This year of 2018, Sivan 6 happens to fall on Pentecost Sunday.  
         These days are for me a time of considering whether He may gather us during the period of the grain harvest.
          Lev. 23:10-11 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:  And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. 
         The people were not to eat of the grain until it had been waved before the Lord.
         We see a picture of a time of rejoicing for Israel revealed in the story of old Naomi, and her restoration and joy in having a little boy to care for in her old age.  Ruth was married and taken into Boaz's house and lifted out of her time of gleaning in the field.  The son of Boaz, Obed, is born.  Others have noted that the book of Ruth is like the story of the Church and the Lord Jesus, and I think there is also this parallel to Israel revealed in Naomi's story, that Jesus is like Boaz, and when He and the Church are wed in heaven, a son will be born, the sealed servants in Israel. 
         Naomi will be brought back to joys she had thought were lost forever.  Just as Obed means "serving," so the end time, 144,000 believing Jews will be excellent servants of God  as we are told in Revelation.  Naomi means "pleasantness" but she said she had become bitterness.  Naomi's joy will return.   Other types of these victorious, believing Jews are seen in the three young men in the fiery furnace; in Elisha; and in Ephraim, the younger son of Joseph; and in Benjamin.

      Pentecost
         I believe the harvest of grain in springtime points to the season of the coming of the Lord for His believers.  The increase of the grain, the harvest reveals the way He has multiplied His believers like a sower who cultivates His field.
         Pentecost celebrates the giving of the law, and occurs after seven sabbaths, on a Sunday ("the morrow after the sabbath") according to Scripture, (making it another reason for us to worship on Sunday, the day Christ arose). 
         This fulfillment occurred when the Holy Spirit fell upon the gathered believers, as Jesus had promised.  He came with a noise of a mighty wind, and the separated 120 believers saw the flames of fire on one another's heads.  Believers spoke in other tongues, telling about Jesus to people of other nations.  Just as fire came on Sinai as the law was given, so fire came on the Church in Jerusalem.
         Observance on Sunday has been set aside by the Jews as explained above.
         Tradition says that Enoch was born on Pentecost and was also taken up by God on Pentecost.

      Feast of Trumpets
         Next is the Feast of Trumpets, a convocation of trumpets, and all Jews are to gather in Jerusalem.  Some think the convocation of trumpets will be fulfilled  by believers going up to heaven, being gathered to Him, and that Jesus, as High Priest, will blow the trumpet ['the trump of God'  I Thes.]  just as occurred at this feast in Israel near sundown on the evening before the new moon of Tishri 1 when the High Priest blew the shofar to gather the people, who were to immediately go to the temple.

      The Day of Atonement
         The Day of Atonement was a solemn fast day when the Jews were not to work.   For thousands of years, annually on this day the High Priest went into the Holy of Holies and sprinkled the blood of a sacrifice and interceded for the people.  A rope was tied around his ankle in order to pull him out if he died in there and the sacrifice was not accepted.  Jesus went into the Holy of Holies before the Lord and made an atonement for us by the sprinkling of His own Blood. 
         After the Rapture of the believers, there will be, I believe, an awed multitude of Jews  who see that something has happened and many will seek the Lord.  I think this time of shock is revealed in the first chapter of the Book of Joel, and that following chapters describe the tribulation and their comfort as they find God has not forsaken them.  (I have done a little study on Joel which indicates my reasons.)  Jesus has made our atonement and we won't ever experience the earthly fulfillment of that dreadful dark period. 
         I believe the Jews will experience great revival and miracles, and will believe and evangelize.  The tremendous outpouring of God's Spirit as related in Joel will fall upon them.  I believe "Ephraim" was born in 1948, as Israel became a nation.  During the terrible time of God's wrath outpoured upon the sinful earth, Israel will experience great things.  I believe this is borne out in books of the Old Testament and in the Book of Revelation.  Far from the Jews staying behind to experience only curses, I believe many will believe and please the Lord.  They will become a true witness, just as the three young men in the fiery furnace in Daniel, and the Lord will be manifested among them!  They will live through terrible times as they wait to see Him.  No wonder that He said blessed are those who believe without having to see.
         Believers have received the Blood of the slain Passover Lamb,  His offering of Unleavened Bread, and we have taken the symbols of His Blood in the wine and His body in the broken bread.  We have believed in Firstfruits, with Jesus raised from the dead,  like a grain of wheat buried, seemingly dead, and then sprouted in new life.  We have experienced Pentecost and are in a time of waiting and watching for Jesus to come.  We will never again experience a day of crying out and seeking an atonement because Jesus is our all in all.

      Tabernacles, Booths, Succot
         At this feast, all Jews were to go up to Jerusalem for the great gathering of the people.   They were told by the Lord to live out of doors for a week in little booths made of tree limbs and branches to remind them of the way God had protected them in their sojourn from Egypt.  Tabernacles commences on the full moon, the harvest moon.  Most of the crops are in, the grape harvest is ending in September. 
         The olive will be harvested during September, October, November.
         Revelation mentions the pressing of grapes was the time of His wrath.
         Are the 144,000 believing Jews like olives, pressed, yielding precious oil?  The two witnesses of the Book of Revelation are likened to two olive trees.  The olive harvest and pressing reminds us of the oil being used for the Menorah lamp. We know that the grapes of wrath reveal the wicked. 
         Tabernacles will be fulfilled by the Lord setting His Throne in Jerusalem so all the saved would come up to it, since it is on a mountain, Mount Olivet.
         Remaining Jews will experience the time of Jacob's trouble and consider the fulfillments of some of the feasts, and realize what the Lord has done.  The periods of time spoken of by the prophet Daniel will commence to be fulfilled.
         The Lord has a marvelous plan for the Jews.  He will mightily undertake for them, and just as Joseph dealt with his brothers and restored them to himself in a time of great famine, so the Lord will undertake for them in the dark days prophesied in the Scriptures, and they will be restored to Him with tears of joy. 
         We are soon coming to the sunset, it seems to me.  In the twilight after we believers are gone, the Day of the Lord will commence. 
         The sun was darkened when Jesus died, and the Jewish day commences at sunset, and with it begins the dark Day of the Lord.  The Day of Atonement will come and stretch on as the Jews seek God's salvation in that awful time. 
         The seven years start with the covenant of the evil one and Israel, but there could be some intervening time between the Rapture and the start of the Tribulation.  The time of Jacob's trouble will commence, the time of Daniel's seventieth "week."  Greater things than the Exodus will occur.  Afterward, Tabernacles, and then the light of the new day will come, the thousand year earthly reign of Christ here on earth.  And He shall reign forever and ever.
         Some say the Church will go through the tribulation, that God fulfilled the spring feasts in a mighty way on the earth, but that both believers and unbelievers will move together into the tribulation.
         Jesus will set up His kingdom on earth, and sit upon the throne of David, and rule the earth from Jerusalem.  Every year, all people of the earth will come to worship Him there or they will have no rain, according to Zechariah.  Jesus will reign one thousand years, and turn all over to His Father for eternity. 
         Blessed be the Name of the Lord!  

      *****
      Notes, 26 March 2018: 
         I want to say a bit more about a group referred to by various names: NAR New Apostolic Revolution, Latter Day Rain, MSOG or Manifest Sons of God, Kingdom Now, Dominion Theology, Identity.  They and others teach against pre-tribulation Rapture and that Jesus will not come until believers take over, have dominion over the world.   I've read that they believe that the office of Apostle can be conferred by the laying on of their hands, and that the Church has replaced Israel, Replacement Theology.  
         In 2018, Paul Smith of Calvary Chapel states that the "New Evangelical"  outlook, which I think is spreading among some churches, is that Jesus is gradually coming into hearts.   [So many are being taught to not take the Scripture literally as to Jesus' return.]
         I visited a Manifest Sons type of group with an acquaintance, in 1980s, for their large Feast of Tabernacles meetings and celebration, and it took me awhile, but I realized, 'What about the blessed hope?'  
         I take the Scriptures literally and decided the blessed hope is the hope of His coming for believers -- not death, not tribulation, not being hidden in Petra in the mountains southwest of Jerusalem. 
         I'm surprised, but these post-tribulation ideas are still growing and are found among many.  The Manifest Sons group has their main weekly meeting on Saturday, is allied with "CCC" Christ Community Churches.  Dominion Theology people preach that the Church must bring the earth under control before Jesus can come again.
         We will benefit from comparing Scriptures about 1) the grain harvest 2) the coming for the Bride 3) the householder on a journey who exhorts his servants to watch, and will learn much by looking again at the parables of Jesus.
         All unbelieving people left behind at the Rapture will live during the Time of Jacob's trouble.  God's plan will be fulfilled and many will be saved, but many will die, many will be executed, and suffering will be great.   One hundred forty four thousand Jewish men from the tribes will evangelize and many will believe.  After the departing of the Church, the Scripture will be fulfilled, Jeremiah 8:20  The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.  
         The book of Joel chapter 1 speaks of an event that has occurred:  "The word of the LORD that came to Joel the son of Pethuel. Hear this, ye old men, and give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land. Hath this been in your days, or even in the days of your fathers?  Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation."  Verse 7: "He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white."   Does this event point to the missing believers and realization by Jews that they had not recognized Messiah, or does it indicate there has been a military attack on Israel?
         Specifics for events in the time of tribulation can be found in Daniel and in the Book of Revelation.
         The evil man will arise and set up world government and eventually enter the Temple in Jerusalem, saying he is God, and the most awful times will occur.  Great numbers of new believers, who will refuse to take his mark, will be beheaded.  Eventually, as Jesus warned, some will flee Jerusalem and hide in the mountains to the southeast, and be sustained by the Lord. 
         Evil unbelieving people of the tribulation are compared to a harvest gathering of grapes, to be crushed.
         Believers during the Time of Jacob's trouble might be compared to the olive harvest, the last harvest of the agricultural year, and the pressing of the olives.
         After a specific number of days, Jesus will come with all His saints, on white horses and clothed in white linen, and He will split Mount Olivet in Jerusalem, east to west.  He will slay all His enemies upon the earth by the word from His mouth.  Some people will live through the tribulation and have children, in a time of peace, blessing, abundance.  Satan will be bound, Rev. 20.
         Rev. 19:8  And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
         We look forward to His gathering of His grain harvest.  Rev. 22:20  Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
         
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