one.opinion Posted September 25, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,240 Content Per Day: 2.11 Reputation: 1,356 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted September 25, 2017 I was actually looking for something else today, but ran across an article stating that a global flood approximately 4,000 years ago would require "evolution on steroids." The idea is that a very limited number of animals on the Ark would have had to evolved into a huge number in a very small (relatively) time period. John Woodmarappe wrote a book called "Noah's Ark: a Feasibility Study". All cards on the table, I have not read the book, but Woodmarappe estimates that 16,000 animals were on board (I don't know his estimates about plants). Recent estimates on numbers of animal species are somewhere from about 1,0000,000 to 1,500,000. So in the last 4,000 years, somewhere around sixteen thousand animals would have had to evolve into at least one million. This math would suggest that if the evolution rate was continuous, a new animal species would have to evolve every 1-2 days. What do you all think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted September 25, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted September 25, 2017 4 hours ago, one.opinion said: I was actually looking for something else today, but ran across an article stating that a global flood approximately 4,000 years ago would require "evolution on steroids." Begging The Question (Fallacy): 'evolution' What's that...?? Define evolution...? a. Post the Scientific Theory of evolution...? b. Post just TWO Formal Scientific Hypotheses then Experiments that concretized it into a REAL Scientific Theory...? c. Post the Null Hypotheses that were Rejected/Falsified for each...? d. Highlight The Independent Variables used in Each TEST...? Quote (I don't know his estimates about plants) Plants have seeds; Floods don't destroy seeds. Quote Recent estimates on numbers of animal species are somewhere from about 1,0000,000 to 1,500,000. "Species" Which Definition?? There's about 50 in the last 100 years and hundreds since Aristotle first coined the Term ca. 330 BC. And "Species" is a 'Man-Made' categorization system, i.e., it's an ARBITRARY CONVENTION; MEANING -- any extrapolations OUTSIDE OF IT ... are a Stone Cold Begging The Question Fallacy from the Black Lagoon. e.g., There have been many of the EXACT SAME organisms classified as an entirely different "Species" (and Genus!). (Review Dr. Carl Werner's work on 'Living Fossils'.) Of those 'alleged' 1-1.5 million 'species', you can eliminate a Healthy Chunk (Over 1 Million known 'Species' plants/animals) live in the Ocean. Quote So in the last 4,000 years, somewhere around sixteen thousand animals would have had to evolve into at least one million. This math would suggest that if the evolution rate was continuous, a new animal species would have to evolve every 1-2 days. They need not, 'evolution' doesn't and never exited. Quote What do you all think? Horse Pucky. regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one.opinion Posted September 26, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,240 Content Per Day: 2.11 Reputation: 1,356 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/03/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 26, 2017 4 hours ago, Enoch2021 said: Plants have seeds; Floods don't destroy seeds. Have you never seen a flood before? Floods do a lot of damage. Seeds and entire plants are not flood-proof. Have you ever seen the Grand Canyon? Young Earth Creationists claim that it was made by that singular event. In the face of such forces, you think that seeds have some magical properties to protect them all? Sure, some plants would certainly have survived, but a great many would have also become extinct. 4 hours ago, Enoch2021 said: "Species" Which Definition?? There's about 50 in the last 100 years and hundreds since Aristotle first coined the Term ca. 330 BC. Species is typically defined as individuals capable of producing fertile offspring. There is admittedly a lot of gray area, particular with asexually-reproducing organisms, but for animals, this definition works pretty well. And Woodmarappe would be using this definition. 4 hours ago, Enoch2021 said: Of those 'alleged' 1-1.5 million 'species', you can eliminate a Healthy Chunk (Over 1 Million known 'Species' plants/animals) live in the Ocean. You might be familiar with the differences between "salt" and "fresh" water. Violent mixing of both would be catastrophic to water animals, as well. Are salt and fresh water "alleged", as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one.opinion Posted September 26, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,240 Content Per Day: 2.11 Reputation: 1,356 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/03/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 26, 2017 My statement: "So in the last 4,000 years, somewhere around sixteen thousand animals would have had to evolve into at least one million. This math would suggest that if the evolution rate was continuous, a new animal species would have to evolve every 1-2 days." Your response: 4 hours ago, Enoch2021 said: They need not, 'evolution' doesn't and never exited. So... how would you explain the dramatic increase in animal species that would have had to have occurred since the flood of Noah? Are you truly saying that no biological change over time doesn't occur and has never existed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonky Posted September 26, 2017 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 6 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 738 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 346 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/28/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted September 26, 2017 16 hours ago, Enoch2021 said: Plants have seeds; Floods don't destroy seeds. Not that interested in this topic but your response here seems comically naive. Take a kiddie pool, fill it with some water, salt and some dirt. Make sure the water is relatively turbulent and throw some "seeds" in there. Let me know if you have a garden in a while. Even if you could find some seeds that would do ok, there are TONS of seeds that are not that resilient. Your response is just hand waving of a major issue. 16 hours ago, Enoch2021 said: Horse Pucky. Good description of the apologetics I've seen for the defense of a global flood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted September 26, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted September 26, 2017 7 minutes ago, Bonky said: Not that interested in this topic but your response here seems comically naive. Take a kiddie pool, fill it with some water, salt and some dirt. Make sure the water is relatively turbulent and throw some "seeds" in there. Let me know if you have a garden in a while. Even if you could find some seeds that would do ok, there are TONS of seeds that are not that resilient. Now... drain the pool. Quote Good description of the apologetics I've seen for the defense of a global flood. Well that was the response to the entire 'evolution' (Whatever that is??) mess. It was comprehensive and right on point. regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted September 26, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted September 26, 2017 12 hours ago, one.opinion said: Have you never seen a flood before? Yes, actually...been in a couple. Quote Floods do a lot of damage. Yes Quote Seeds and entire plants are not flood-proof. Well the aftermath of every single flood I've seen...the plants always grew back. Quote Have you ever seen the Grand Canyon? Yes Quote Young Earth Creationists claim that it was made by that singular event. In the face of such forces, you think that seeds have some magical properties to protect them all? Are you saying that if the Grand Canyon was forged in God's Flood; Therefore, plants/seeds wouldn't survive? Quote Sure, some plants would certainly have survived, but a great many would have also become extinct. Well yours is a plausibility argument and... you just Imploded it. Quote Species is typically defined as individuals capable of producing fertile offspring. Today it is. Wait a week. And as I have explained and illustrated quite explicitly, the Taxonomic System (In TOTO) is merely a contrived convention. Quote You might be familiar with the differences between "salt" and "fresh" water. Violent mixing of both would be catastrophic to water animals, as well. Many 'Species' can survive Brackish Water; and water will sort based on density. This was discussed at some length very recently here in this forum. If I'm not mistaken, a thread you were involved in. Please go back and review it. Quote Are salt and fresh water "alleged", as well? Nope. regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted September 26, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted September 26, 2017 12 hours ago, one.opinion said: So... how would you explain the dramatic increase in animal species that would have had to have occurred since the flood of Noah? Pen, Paper, and some Imagination. Quote Are you truly saying that no biological change over time doesn't occur and has never existed? Nope, didn't even "imply" it. And, is this a Triple Negative? regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one.opinion Posted September 26, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,240 Content Per Day: 2.11 Reputation: 1,356 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/03/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 26, 2017 4 minutes ago, Enoch2021 said: Are you saying that if the Grand Canyon was forged in God's Flood; Therefore, plants/seeds wouldn't survive? Nope, I'm saying that a flood of that magnitude would certainly damage plant life and quite a few species. I never claimed it would wipe out all plant life. 6 minutes ago, Enoch2021 said: Many 'Species' can survive Brackish Water; and water will sort based on density. This was discussed at some length very recently here in this forum. If I'm not mistaken, a thread you were involved in. Please go back and review it. Nope, wrong guy -- there are a lot of "ones" running around here. Again, I'm not saying that a flood of that magnitude would wipe out all aquatic life, either. I'm saying that it would have severely damage a lot of aquatic life and certainly caused some extinction. I note that you offer no explanation for how such a limited number of animal species developed (to avoid using the "e" word) into the number of animal species observed today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one.opinion Posted September 26, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,240 Content Per Day: 2.11 Reputation: 1,356 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/03/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 26, 2017 6 minutes ago, Enoch2021 said: And, is this a Triple Negative? Thanks for the grammar tip, since it was clearly essential to productive discourse. Allow me to rephrase. Are you stating that life does not change over time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts