The Protestant Reformation

[JTC]

19 hours ago, maryjayne said:

I think, in the UK anyway, we are seeing another reformation. People are turning away in droves from the mainstream churches, and setting up small independent churches,and house churches where they go back to basics, not clergy and laity, not fancy church buildings. Most of them rent a room, its simple, plain and almost under the radar of most of the mainstream churches.

when reporters say the church is dying, thats because they miss the ever growing small ones out of their figures.

Is it like that in the US?

I don't know, but I don't think so. But we do have dozens of small non-mainstream congregations all over. There's 1 in my town that I wanted to go to a few yrs ago. I had 1 of their members on the bus several times and he had said they were full Gospel. But then he gave the url for their website. When I went to the website I noticed they were a 100% Black congregation. I have Black friends in my building but I also know there are many Black people in this town who are prejudiced against Whites. Then I knew why the guy told me to visit their website. This is a real shame. What we also have is the U.S. is a lot of bigger churches that do small "groups in the home" as Bible studies instead of a big Bible study in the church. But it's not what you're referring to, I know that.  

[Michael37]

On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 1:28 PM, maryjayne said:

I think, in the UK anyway, we are seeing another reformation. People are turning away in droves from the mainstream churches, and setting up small independent churches,and house churches where they go back to basics, not clergy and laity, not fancy church buildings. Most of them rent a room, its simple, plain and almost under the radar of most of the mainstream churches.

when reporters say the church is dying, thats because they miss the ever growing small ones out of their figures.

Is it like that in the US?

The early followers of Christ met in each others homes and weren't encumbered with the institutional baggage that has now accummulated.  You may be interested in this essay of mine composed for another site 11th June 2018:

 The Great Error Of Constantine:

Constantine, Roman Emperor from July 25th 306AD. to October 22nd 337AD., left a legacy of politicised institutional "christianity" which in some respects constituted an unhealthy partnership between the so-called church and the state.

 

This great error is a legacy which can be traced in its first instance to an act of Constantine whereby he forbade anyone outside the established church to meet for religious purposes, and enforced this with what were the first confiscations of the property of those who did.

 

According to the writings of Eusebius Pamphilius of Caesaria, an advisor to Constantine, the emperor waited until just before his death to be baptised so as not to risk sinning afterward and as a consequence losing his salvation, such was his belief that baptism was the seal of salvation by which immortality was conferred.

 

Constantine and Licinius, who controlled the Balkans, met in Milan 313 AD to form an agreement to treat Christians benevolently within the Roman Empire, and the ensuing Edict of Milan gave Christianity a legal status, thereby laying the groundwork for the politicised institutional "christianity" that came of age on 27 February 380AD., when a later Roman Emperor, Theodosius, succeeded in making "Nicean Christianity" the State religion.

 

The so-called "Edict of Thessalonica" declared the Nicene Trinitarian Christianity to be the only legitimate imperial religion and the only one entitled to call itself Catholic. Theodosius described other Christians as "foolish madmen" and ended official state support for the traditional polytheist religions and customs. Once again all meetings other than those of "Catholic Christians", in officially sanctioned places, were banned.

 

Of this "state of affairs" historian William Jones writes in his book, "The History Of The Christian Church",  that the Scriptures were now no longer the standard of the Christian faith but the decisions of councils and fathers; religion was propagated not by the apostolic methods of persuasion accompanied with the meekness and gentleness of Christ, but by imperial edicts and decrees; nor were gainsayers to be brought to conviction by reason and Scripture but to be persecuted and destroyed.

 

With the blueprint in place for state enforced sanctions against perceived enemies of the church, the legacy of politicised institutional "christianity" ironically served the Reformation well, a claim upheld by R.K.McGregor Wright, who states in his book, "No Place For Sovereignty...", that "the entire process of the Reformation took place in the context of state churches, with secular power supporting the Reformers and protecting their gains."

 

[Michael37]

Just now, maryjayne said:

Constantine was the death knell of the early church, wasnt he : (

He certainly made it difficult for anyone who disagreed with Rome to pursue their faith, but there has always been a remnant who objected, some at great cost. The Holy Spirit is alive and well today regardless of attempts to quench it with man-made yokes and structures. 

[Michael37]

9 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

I agree, I meant openly to be worshiping without having to agree with him.

Yes. The mindset prevails in some quarters today. 

[JTC]

Michael, That was a very good essay. But I still think we need a new reformation. When I became an official Christian in 1980 here in lower NYS most people believed we have a license to sin. Not that they'd admit this. Their attitude was it's covered by the blood, which is true and false. Once you are saved you can't keep committing grievous sins and thinking all will be forgiven. I never bought into this even though it took me 20 yrs to stop the worst of those sins. I actually thank my Catholic background for that. Catholics are taught their always a problem with sins and my Bible studying has proven to me this is true. I don't know exactly how it will work so I believe the only safe thing to do is to not sin. At least, keep working at it. I cringe when I read from a Christian "since we can never be perfect anyway why ruin our lives deny ourselves what we can have" and other such statements. Jesus and the apostles taught to deny yourself and stop sinning. For some this may mean no more sex or no more marriages. I knew a woman who was supposedly Christian who was on her 4th marriage. She saw nothing wrong with that, but I do. Sometimes you just have to get out of a bad marriage but how many times can you really do that and keep remarrying. I won't even start on the gay stuff. You do have to put an end to sinning at some point. This needs to be taught. I see some TV preachers have started to teach it but they don't stress it strongly enough yet.   

[Michael37]

7 minutes ago, JTC said:

Michael, That was a very good essay. But I still think we need a new reformation. When I became an official Christian in 1980 here in lower NYS most people believed we have a license to sin. Not that they'd admit this. Their attitude was it's covered by the blood, which is true and false. Once you are saved you can't keep committing grievous sins and thinking all will be forgiven. I never bought into this even though it took me 20 yrs to stop the worst of those sins. I actually thank my Catholic background for that. Catholics are taught their always a problem with sins and my Bible studying has proven to me this is true. I don't know exactly how it will work so I believe the only safe thing to do is to not sin. At least, keep working at it. I cringe when I read from a Christian "since we can never be perfect anyway why ruin our lives deny ourselves what we can have" and other such statements. Jesus and the apostles taught to deny yourself and stop sinning. For some this may mean no more sex or no more marriages. I knew a woman who was supposedly Christian who was on her 4th marriage. She saw nothing wrong with that, but I do. Sometimes you just have to get out of a bad marriage but how many times can you really do that and keep remarrying. I won't even start on the gay stuff. You do have to put an end to sinning at some point. This needs to be taught. I see some TV preachers have started to teach it but they don't stress it strongly enough yet.   

Thanks for your edifying comments, JTC. There is a movement called "The Last Reformation", so called because its Danish founder, Torben Sondergaard, thinks if everyone follows his formula to address the shortcomings of the previous Reformation, then no further reformations will be needed. I came across some adherents of this movement who run "kickstart" events to get recruits and train them in the formula and get them studying from the weekly video sessions from their "guru", but I couldn't walk with them on their path because there were some doctrines coming through that were off, and I discerned it was a cult they were caught up in.

As for professing Christians who continue to wilfully sin here's a verse that addresses this:

Tit 1:15-16

(15)  Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

(16)  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

[JTC]

6 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

 but I couldn't walk with them on their path because there were some doctrines coming through that were off, and I discerned it was a cult they were caught up in.

As for professing Christians who continue to wilfully sin here's a verse that addresses this:

Tit 1:15-16

(15)  Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

(16)  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Michael, Yeah, that sounds like a cult to me too. Whenever 1 person or 1 group has the only answer it's false. It's my belief that the true people of God are scattered all over the world. Loving each other matters, and so does living in righteousness.  

[Fidei Defensor]

What few are aware of is Moravian Church had a reformation prior to  Luther, “Before Luther nailed his 95 Thesis on the Castle Church Door on Oct 31st, 1517, the Moravians or Unity of the Brethren had started The Reformation in Bohemia, and Kunwald, Czechia (Germany) in circa 1457 A.D. The Brethren had their own Printing presses, “Of the five printing presses in all Bohemia, three belonged to the Brethren; of sixty printed works that appeared between 1500 and 1510, no fewer than fifty were published by the Brethren; and of all the scribes of the sixteenth century, Luke was the most prolific. He wrote a "Catechism for Children." He edited the first Brethren's hymn book (1501), the first Church hymnal in history. He published a commentary on the Psalms, another on the Gospel of St. John, and another on the eleventh chapter of 1 Corinthians; he drew up "Confessions of Faith," and sent them to the King; and thus, for the first time in the history of Bohemia, he made the newly invented press a mighty power in the land.” (Illustrated History of the Moravian Church, J.E. Hutton, pg 49), seven years before Luther ever published anything on the Gutenberg Press! How the world was convinced that Luther started the Reformation is odd, for the Moravians had 100,000 members by 1510 A.D., and were confessing justified by Christ’s merits alone seven years prior to the 95 Thesis. 

We tend to focus on Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli, but Bohemian Brethern / Moravians actually started reforms before Luther. 

[JohnDB]

IMHO,

King Henry VIII did more for the Reformation than anyone else for English speaking people. 

He was the first English translation of the Bible going off of work by Wycliffe and Erasmus. But he also instituted the Church of England. 

 

Following him was Bloody Mary who drove the Protestants out of England...

But that driving them out was what significantly was the cause of the one Bible that truly changed the English speaking world with the introduction of the Geneva Bible that the average person could afford to own themselves.  It had what they called "glosses" which were supposed to help people understand difficult sections of scripture with a decidedly Calvinistic bent. 

Actual true research for these "glosses" of course wasn't done as the libraries belonged to the Catholic Church and the real experts in Ancient Near East literature of Sifre and Talmud weren't consulted. People were more interested in the politics that resulted from these glosses than anything else. 

But suffice it to say that the Geneva Bible is what shaped the English speaking world. This was the Bible of Sir Francis Drake and Shakespeare. It did more for Christiandom amongst English speakers than any other Bible in existence. It was used to teach reading, writing and grammar. 

[David1701]

6 hours ago, JohnDB said:

IMHO,

King Henry VIII did more for the Reformation than anyone else for English speaking people. 

He was the first English translation of the Bible going off of work by Wycliffe and Erasmus. But he also instituted the Church of England. 

 

Henry VIII did not translate the Bible at all and initially suppressed its translation into English.

He "instituted" the Church of England, by seceding selfishly from Romanism, because the Bishop of Rome (correctly) would not give him an annulment, then declared himself as head of his new faction.

I am no supporter of Romanism, but Henry VIII was a deeply evil man!  He had two of his wives murdered!

 

Edited August 15, 2020 by David1701
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