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The Crusades


Fidei Defensor

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My kingdom isn't of this world. If it was my servants would fight but its not of this world, neither our our weapons carnal.

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1 hour ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Save many Catholics with rhetoric like that you won’t. 

If I were witnessing to a Roman Catholic, I would tell him the gospel (indeed, I have done that).  This is not a "witnessing to Roman Catholics" thread.  Having said that, I do remember a Roman Catholic colleague at work, saying that no-one has anything to fear from Catholics, that they are sweet and gentle.  My reply ("Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition." - a line from Monty Python's Flying Circus) made her go very quiet.

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The Crusades were fundamentally wrong on a theological level. The concept one would merit salvation through killing and dying is a false gospel.

Amen.

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However, the intial reason for The First Crusade had some merit, the Eastern Christians (Byzantines) were being besieged by the Seljurk Turks, and they asked Western Christians for help.

It was the wrong kind of help.  The weapons of our warfare are not carnal.

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James Chapter 2 speaks of if a brother has need of anything, we are to help our brothers in Christ.

As above, it was the wrong kind of help.

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Alas The Crusade was turned into a Jihad (Akbar) for Catholics, penitential warefare based on Abbot Cluny and Pope Gregory VII’s concerns for warriors going to hell because their occupation is murder. 

Warfare as penance - oh boy!  I hope they've ditched that one.

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1 minute ago, David1701 said:

If I were witnessing to a Roman Catholic, I would tell him the gospel (indeed, I have done that).  This is not a "witnessing to Roman Catholics" thread.  Having said that, I do remember a Roman Catholic colleague at work, saying that no-one has anything to fear from Catholics, that they are sweet and gentle.  My reply ("Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition." - a line from Monty Python's Flying Circus) made her go very quiet.

Amen.

It was the wrong kind of help.  The weapons of our warfare are not carnal.

As above, it was the wrong kind of help.

Warfare as penance - oh boy!  I hope they've ditched that one.

“Jesus said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.” (Luke 22:36)

Its clear Jesus intended his disicples to defend themselves, and each orher. 

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11 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

“Jesus said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.” (Luke 22:36)

Its clear Jesus intended his disicples to defend themselves, and each orher. 

Fighting off wild animals?  There are precisely zero NT Scriptures in which Christians are encouraged to fight other people physically.

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14 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Fighting off wild animals?  There are precisely zero NT Scriptures in which Christians are encouraged to fight other people physically.

I agree we arn’t encouraged to war, but what then do you make of The Revolutionary War that had American Christians killing British Christians? Is not The US which was a haven for persecuted Christian founded in blood? And so are many nations. 

I believe Jesus wanted to arm his disciples because of bandits on the road. Besides some of the great followers of Christ were Roman Centurions: 

When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. “Lord, (Romans 10:9)” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”

Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”

The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom(G)will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.” (Matthew 8:5-13) 

21 And Peter went down to the men and said, "I am the one you are looking for. What is the reason for your coming?"
22 And they said, "Cornelius, a centurion, an upright and God-fearing man, who is well spoken of by the whole Jewish nation, was directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and to hear what you have to say."
23 So he invited them in to be his guests. The next day he rose and went away with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa accompanied him. 
24 And on the following day they entered Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends.
25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him.
26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am a man."
27 And as he talked with him, he went in and found many persons gathered.
28 And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.
29 So when I was sent for, I came without objection. I ask then why you sent for me."
30 And Cornelius said, "Four days ago, about this hour, I was praying in my house at the ninth hour, and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing
31 and said, 'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God.
32 Send therefore to Joppa and ask for Simon who is called Peter. He is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the sea.'
33 So I sent for you at once, and you have been kind enough to come. Now therefore we are all here in the presence of God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord."
34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,
35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.
36 As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all),
37 you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed:
38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree,
40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear.”  Acts 10:21-40

Niether Jesus nor Peter told these men of war who loved Christ to stop being soldiers. 

In fact Jesus our Lord encourages soldiers to keep their jobs, “Soldiers also asked him, "And we, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages." (Luke 3:14). Christ could have said “put away your swords, and make no war,” but He didn’t. 

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In fact Jesus our Lord encourages soldiers to keep their jobs: 

Soldiers also asked him, "And we, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages." (Luke 3:14).

Christ could have said “put away your swords, and make no war,” but He didn’t. 

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13 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

I agree we arn’t encouraged to war, but what then do you make of The Revolutionary War that had American Christians killing British Christians? Is not The US which was a haven for persecuted Christian founded in blood? And so are many nations. 

I think that the American Revolution was dreadful.  It was armed rebellion, causing many unnecessary deaths. 

This is in no way a justification of the excessive taxation of the colonies and the refusal of colonial representation in the British parliament, before you say anything (I'm British).

Quote

I believe Jesus wanted to arm his disciples because of bandits on the road.

You believe it; but, can you prove it?

 

Quote

Besides some of the great followers of Christ were Roman Centurions:

“When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. “Lord, (Romans 10:9)” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”

Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”

The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom(G)will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.” (Matthew 8:5-13) 

“21 And Peter went down to the men and said, "I am the one you are looking for. What is the reason for your coming?"
22 And they said, "Cornelius, a centurion, an upright and God-fearing man, who is well spoken of by the whole Jewish nation, was directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and to hear what you have to say."
23 So he invited them in to be his guests. The next day he rose and went away with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa accompanied him. 
24 And on the following day they entered Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends.
25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him.
26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am a man."
27 And as he talked with him, he went in and found many persons gathered.
28 And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.
29 So when I was sent for, I came without objection. I ask then why you sent for me."
30 And Cornelius said, "Four days ago, about this hour, I was praying in my house at the ninth hour, and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing
31 and said, 'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God.
32 Send therefore to Joppa and ask for Simon who is called Peter. He is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the sea.'
33 So I sent for you at once, and you have been kind enough to come. Now therefore we are all here in the presence of God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord."
34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,
35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.
36 As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all),
37 you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed:
38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree,
40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear.”  Acts 10:21-40

Niether Jesus nor Peter told these men of war who loved Christ to stop being soldiers. 

In fact Jesus our Lord encourages soldiers to keep their jobs, “Soldiers also asked him, "And we, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages." (Luke 3:14). Christ could have said “put away your swords, and make no war,” but He didn’t. 

 

What did Jesus say to do, if someone strikes you on the cheek? 

What did Jesus say about those who live by the sword?

What did Paul say about the weapons of our warfare?

Edited by David1701
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38 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

“Jesus said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.” (Luke 22:36)

Its clear Jesus intended his disicples to defend themselves, and each orher. 

No. Jesus never meant for them to use the sword.

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1 hour ago, David1701 said:

I think that the American Revolution was dreadful.  It was armed rebellion, causing many unnecessary deaths. 

This is in no way a justification of the excessive taxation of the colonies and the refusal of colonial representation in the British parliament, before you say anything (I'm British).

You believe it; but, can you prove it?

 

What did Jesus say to do, if someone strikes you on the cheek? 

What did Jesus say about those who live by the sword?

What did Paul say about the weapons of our warfare?

To quote an Israeli Archeologist, “turn the other cheek in the time of Jesus wasn’t let someone slap you again on the other cheek, the ways Jews smote people was with a back hand and if you turn the other cheek it cannot make contact, this turning the other cheek means to not recieve the insult and abuse again.” 

He said they “will die by the sword,” but that’s just a mattwe of fact statement, not a rule for pacifism. In fact Jesus rebuked Peter when he drew his sword in Gethsename not because he fought, but because Peter was resisting Jesus’ salvic plan, “So Jesus said to Peter, "Put your sword into its sheath; shall I not drink the cup that the Father has given me?" (John 18:11)

The issue of Peter drWing hus sword is he sought to stop Jesus’ atoning sacrifice, as he had done with words earlier: 

“21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.
22 And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, "Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you."
23 But he turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man." (Matthew 16:21-23)

The Apostle Paul is talking about spiritual warfare “in our weapons arn’t carnal,” he doesn’t speak against physical warfare.  

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The apostles had power, they had the Spirit,  so why would they need sword?

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