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Justin Adams

Aramaic to English translation proposal.

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OK more thing I've found reading the various Aramaic NT boards etc.  I've read there seems to be more poetry etc. found in the words of Christ in the Aramaic.    Christ really does come across as "The Son of David" as someone who is a gifted poet, and not just some kind of wise sage.    There are various poetic structures like acrostics, puns and rhyming found in a number of the red letter verses of Christ where he seems to be making his point not just in the literal message but through the poetry, rhyme, puns etc.

Edited by Addai

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7 hours ago, Yowm said:

The earliest manuscript fragments we have of the NT are in Greek not Aramaic lending creedence that the originals were written in Greek. This means that the early Aramaic manuscripts were actually translations from the Greek removing them one language further than Greek to English we now have Greek-->Aramaic-->English, opening up to further translational errors.

Just because they are 'earlier' does not mean they are 'correct' or that Josephus and many eminent scholars are wrong.
That Jesus and His contemporaries spoke mostly the poetic Aramaic language is not really open for debate.

I am sorry to say, but the 'vested interests' of the 'Greek only' adherents poses a very telling economic and religious-politically entrenched dilemma. It is a massive institution so it will do all in its power to discredit reality.

Josephus repeatedly refers to Aramaic as being "the language of our country", "our language" and "our own tongue", and that Aramaic is also referred to in the New Testament, by the people of Jerusalem, as "our own tongue". Josephus says that his histories were first written in Aramaic, but that he wanted to translate them into Greek for a wider audience. But Josephus explains that, because he was a Jew, Jews did not know Greek, and he had to go as far afield as Rome to learn Greek. He admits that, even after years of learning Greek, Greek was still very much a foreign language to him, and one which he could not really pronounce properly.

Did Jesus Speak Aramaic?  

There is wide consensus among scholars that Aramaic was the primary language spoken by the Jews of first century Palestine.

The vast majority of Jews spoke it. Jesus spoke it.

This has been the commonly accepted view since 1845, when Abraham Geiger, a German rabbi, showed that even Jewish rabbis from the first century would have spoken Aramaic. He convincingly argued that the Hebrew from the first century (Mishnaic Hebrew) only functioned as a written language, not as a living, spoken language.

Although Geiger’s thesis has been challenged, modified, and softened over the years, his general argument remains widely accepted. Most Jews living in the heartland spoke Aramaic; almost nobody spoke Hebrew.

There are two reasons most scholars believe Aramaic was the primary language of Jesus’s time—and the language Jesus spoke:

The overwhelming majority of documents and inscriptions recovered from the era are in Aramaic. Although documents do exist in Greek, Hebrew, Latin, and other languages, they are a minority. And even though many religious texts are in Hebrew (for example, of the Dead Sea Scrolls, 15% are in Aramaic, 3% are in Greek, and the rest in Hebrew), most nonreligious texts—contracts, invoices, ownership claims, and other kinds of ordinary communication—are in Aramaic. Moreover, of the Hebrew inscriptions found, almost all have been found in and around Jerusalem and the Judean wilderness—and virtually none have been found in Galilee. If Hebrew was spoken regularly in ordinary conversation, there is little written evidence to support it.

The second, and perhaps most convincing evidence of Aramaic primacy is that the Hebrew Scriptures were being translated into Aramaic. There may be many reasons why the Scriptures were being translated, but the most likely one is the simplest: most ordinary people could no longer understand the Scriptures in Hebrew.

This doesn’t mean Hebrew wasn’t spoken. We’ve seen above that it was.

It simply means the instances where Hebrew was spoken were the exception, not the rule.

[KAREN H JOBES Zondervan Academic]

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10 hours ago, Abdicate said:

Always ask the Lord for guidance in everything you do and do it for His glory. I do believe that the original gospels were written in Aramaic. The sad part is that the tools and dictionaries are hard to come by. The Holy Spirit will always show you the truth and give you wonderful understanding for things that are of the truth. Then it will make a profound difference. The vast majority of Christians today wouldn't believe the truth if God Himself were to tell them. They're so rock solid in dogma and traditions, anyone that doesn't believe like them is a heretic. Hmmm... they have become pharisees. And Jesus told the pharisees that although they knew the truth, they wouldn't enter in nor allow others to enter into the truth. WOW! That sounds like a lot of people on this site. Keep up the search. Remember ask and you shall received, seek and you shall find, knock and it will be opened unto you - God's acronym A.S.K. I love it! Furthermore, R.F.O. is a Request For Offer!

Agreed bro'.

It is so hard to get certain people (even doctorates in my family) to be prepared to see the truth.

I have played with major controls systems most of my life - hazardous stuff. You just have to put aside any preconceived notions and deal with hard steel and reality - or else you might die!

So it is with most of my life. I will not give up a pursuit just because others have failed - but if I find a new and original untried idea, I will give it a try. I don't care for past failures - my life is full of them, but if you are at 5,000 feet in whiteout, you had better rely on your instruments - or else!

So how you 'feel', or your 'opinion' is always suspect - just like second-hand wisdom. Find reality!

Thanks to all the open minded people that are in search of the Truth.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“But whenever The Spirit of The Truth comes, he will lead you into the whole truth, for he will not speak of his own will, but he shall speak whatever he shall hear and he shall reveal the future to you.”

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Hi All,

when I first read this I thought to myself "we are having issues with the authenticity of most translations, so do we REALLY need to go there"? but having read some of the comments I have come to understand that this seeking is very individual. 

The little differences in the translation from Aramaic to English that you have put up Addai were  very interesting. The logical demonstration may be minor but significant; I Will definitely look into this more. Thank you so much for this insight!

We are all seeking to get closer to the truth of Gods word. And there is nothing wrong with that however I feel that most important thing is to know God have a personal relationship with Him. The essence of the Gospel has never changed and even with distortion over the years the message ALWAYS got through over 2000+ years. His word is Spirit and Life.

 The holy spirit throughout my walk  has show me things in His word and by revelations before any teacher even taught me or even seen themselves (glory to God, he's not a respecter of persons)...the closer you are to Him wholeheartedly in prayer fasting and supplications His 'secrets' do get revealed. Nothing is hidden from the Children of God.

Many have tried and failed.

Thank you Lord for your grace and mercy upon us. We seek your truth always to know you more so your will can be done in our lives and we can be empowered to fulfil our calling as profitable servants; winning souls for your Kingdom. All we do is for your honour and your glory! 

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One thing people don't realize is that manuscript preservation traditions differ across cultures and empires.     In the Western Roman empire the Jews and Christians tended to bury the old manuscripts, while in the East manuscripts were treated more like Americans treat the flag (Your suppose to burn a damaged flag), they carefully recopied the text that was showing wear and burned the original when it was completed.     The problem with these kind of discussions is many Christians etc. have a mind set that mirrors that of Atheist Evidentialists, its   a kind of "seeing  is believing" materialistic empiricism.    That approach would be fine if manuscripts preservation traditions were universal, but unfortunately they are not.

 

I will also add that there are certain variances between the ancient Greek codexes that do not make sense if Greek was the original language.       

 

Besides the quote from Josephus, Eusebius also quotes from Papias who mentions of sayings of Christ in Aramaic and a gospel written "in the tongue of the Hebrews".

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On 10/6/2017 at 6:37 AM, Justin Adams said:

Agreed bro'.

It is so hard to get certain people (even doctorates in my family) to be prepared to see the truth.

I have played with major controls systems most of my life - hazardous stuff. You just have to put aside any preconceived notions and deal with hard steel and reality - or else you might die!

So it is with most of my life. I will not give up a pursuit just because others have failed - but if I find a new and original untried idea, I will give it a try. I don't care for past failures - my life is full of them, but if you are at 5,000 feet in whiteout, you had better rely on your instruments - or else!

So how you 'feel', or your 'opinion' is always suspect - just like second-hand wisdom. Find reality!

Thanks to all the open minded people that are in search of the Truth.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“But whenever The Spirit of The Truth comes, he will lead you into the whole truth, for he will not speak of his own will, but he shall speak whatever he shall hear and he shall reveal the future to you.”

You sound like me. I do my own homework because when it's important, you can't let others do it for you and that to me is what the church is doing more and more... allowing their pastors to do their homework. This is how traditions overrule truth, fallacies over reality. By doing our own homework, the Spirit shows you truth which you may never had heard of or understood another meaning. With all the hype against 666, which is not in the word of God (except in mistranslations) so I was meditating and the thought came to me, "Is there a real meaning to the number that's been hijacked?" When you read "666" do you get warm and fuzzy thoughts or a cold chill up your spine? (I'm exaggerating of course.) So I began to look and I remember Genesis 1:1 and it's geometric and mathematical miracles. 666 happens to be a triangle number. The sum of the letters of Genesis 1:1 is 2701, which is also a triangle number. If you segregate 703 (the value of two words in Genesis 1:1) you are left with 1998 which is 3 x 666. This yields this geographical image of Genesis 1:1 as:

Screen Shot 2017-08-17 at 5.05.53 PM.png

The white triangle is the sum of the words "and the earth" and the gold triangles are 3 sets of 666 comprised of all the remaining letters of Genesis 1:1. So, as I see it, the Trinity is present at creation as equilateral (isosceles) triangles (3 sided triangle of the same length and angle) focusing on the inhabitants of the earth, the seat of the authority of the physical. Anyhow, just a thought. :)

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Abdicate said:

You sound like me. I do my own homework because when it's important, you can't let others do it for you and that to me is what the church is doing more and more... allowing their pastors to do their homework. This is how traditions overrule truth, fallacies over reality. By doing our own homework, the Spirit shows you truth which you may never had heard of or understood another meaning. With all the hype against 666, which is not in the word of God (except in mistranslations) so I was meditating and the thought came to me, "Is there a real meaning to the number that's been hijacked?" When you read "666" do you get warm and fuzzy thoughts or a cold chill up your spine? (I'm exaggerating of course.) So I began to look and I remember Genesis 1:1 and it's geometric and mathematical miracles. 666 happens to be a triangle number. The sum of the letters of Genesis 1:1 is 2701, which is also a triangle number. If you segregate 703 (the value of two words in Genesis 1:1) you are left with 1998 which is 3 x 666. This yields this geographical image of Genesis 1:1 as:

Screen Shot 2017-08-17 at 5.05.53 PM.png

The white triangle is the sum of the words "and the earth" and the gold triangles are 3 sets of 666 comprised of all the remaining letters of Genesis 1:1. So, as I see it, the Trinity is present at creation as equilateral (isosceles) triangles (3 sided triangle of the same length and angle) focusing on the inhabitants of the earth, the seat of the authority of the physical. Anyhow, just a thought. :)

 

 

 

 

It is a good thought. For the longest time I have wondered at the the new Jerusalem (or heaven or whatever) that descends upon the new earth... does it comprise giant golden pyramidal shapes?   
Are all the others just copies for whatever 'other world' function their original designers required?

It has been estimated that with defects (mountains etc.) that our earth is more perfect in proportion than any cue ball if scaled down accurately. Just a wild thought. So the New Jerusalem could be shaped any which way the Lord wants.

10 And he carried me in The Spirit to a great and high mountain and he showed me The Holy City Jerusalem, coming down from Heaven from the presence of God, 11 And it had the glory of God and its light was as the likeness of precious stones, like Jasper red quartz, as the appearance of crystal.12 And it had a wall, great and high, and it had twelve gates, and at the gates, twelve Angels, and names written which are the names of the twelve tribes of Israel; 13 From the East, three gates, from the North, three gates, and from the South, three gates, and from the West, three gates. 14 And the wall of the city has twelve foundations, and on them, the twelve names of the Apostles of The Son*.

15 And he who spoke with me had with him a measuring reed of gold to measure the city and its wall.16 And the city was laid out four-sided, and its length like its width. And he measured The City with the reed, with twelve thousand stadia its length; its width and its height are equal. 17 And he measured its wall one hundred and forty four cubits by the measure of a man, that is, of the Angel. 18 The building of the wall was Jasper Quartz, and the city was of pure gold, in the likeness of pure glass. 19 And the foundation of the wall of the city is adorned with precious stones; and the first foundation, Jasper red-blue-yellow Quartz, and the second, Sapphire, and the third, white Chalcedony, and the fourth, Emerald, 20 And the fifth, red and white Sardius and banded Onyx, and the sixth, red and white Sardius, and the seventh, Goldstone, and the eighth, Beryl, and the ninth, Topaz, and the tenth, green and gold Chrysoprasus, the eleventh, dark blue Jacinth, the twelfth, Amethyst, 21 And twelve gates and twelve pearls, one to each, and every one of the gates was of one pearl, but the street of the city of pure gold, as if there was glass in it.

22 And I saw no Temple in it, for THE LORD JEHOVAH God Almighty, he is its Temple*. 23 And The Lamb and The City do not need the Sun or the Moon to illuminate it, for the glory of God illuminates it, and The Lamb is its lamp. 24 And the nations* walk in its light and the Kings of The Earth bring glory* to it. 25 And its gates shall not be shut by day, for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring to it the glory and honor of the nations. 27 There shall not be anything defiled there, or one who makes defilement or lies, but only those who are written in The Book* of the Lamb.

 

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58 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

It is a good thought.

For the longest time

It is a good thought. For the longest time I have wondered at the the new Jerusalem (or heaven or whatever) that descends upon the new earth... does it comprise giant golden pyramidal shapes?   
Are all the others just copies for whatever 'other world' function their original designers required?

It has been estimated that with defects (mountains etc.) that our earth is more perfect in proportion than any cue ball if scaled down accurately. Just a wild thought. So the New Jerusalem could be shaped any which way the Lord wants.

10 And he carried me in The Spirit to a great and high mountain and he showed me The Holy City Jerusalem, coming down from Heaven from the presence of God, 11 And it had the glory of God and its light was as the likeness of precious stones, like Jasper red quartz, as the appearance of crystal.12 And it had a wall, great and high, and it had twelve gates, and at the gates, twelve Angels, and names written which are the names of the twelve tribes of Israel; 13 From the East, three gates, from the North, three gates, and from the South, three gates, and from the West, three gates. 14 And the wall of the city has twelve foundations, and on them, the twelve names of the Apostles of The Son*.

15 And he who spoke with me had with him a measuring reed of gold to measure the city and its wall.16 And the city was laid out four-sided, and its length like its width. And he measured The City with the reed, with twelve thousand stadia its length; its width and its height are equal. 17 And he measured its wall one hundred and forty four cubits by the measure of a man, that is, of the Angel. 18 The building of the wall was Jasper Quartz, and the city was of pure gold, in the likeness of pure glass. 19 And the foundation of the wall of the city is adorned with precious stones; and the first foundation, Jasper red-blue-yellow Quartz, and the second, Sapphire, and the third, white Chalcedony, and the fourth, Emerald, 20 And the fifth, red and white Sardius and banded Onyx, and the sixth, red and white Sardius, and the seventh, Goldstone, and the eighth, Beryl, and the ninth, Topaz, and the tenth, green and gold Chrysoprasus, the eleventh, dark blue Jacinth, the twelfth, Amethyst, 21 And twelve gates and twelve pearls, one to each, and every one of the gates was of one pearl, but the street of the city of pure gold, as if there was glass in it.

22 And I saw no Temple in it, for THE LORD JEHOVAH God Almighty, he is its Temple*. 23 And The Lamb and The City do not need the Sun or the Moon to illuminate it, for the glory of God illuminates it, and The Lamb is its lamp. 24 And the nations* walk in its light and the Kings of The Earth bring glory* to it. 25 And its gates shall not be shut by day, for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring to it the glory and honor of the nations. 27 There shall not be anything defiled there, or one who makes defilement or lies, but only those who are written in The Book* of the Lamb.

 

Yep! Either a pyramid or an open-top cube 1,400 mile square base and height.

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