Inquiring into the "Rapture"

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

Does this resurrection also include the righteous who died during the millennium?

It includes the righteous: Daniel 12:2; Matthew 13:24-30, 13:47-50, 25:32-46; Revelation 14:14-20; Acts 24:15; John 11:24

all these references are about the same event.  There is one harvest that includes good and bad...

Edited October 18, 2017 by Guest
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[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Davida said:

Actually can we also just say that it is not that the "scripture doesn't teach pre-trib" so much as  it is that you do not believe it does, - which is fair, as we can agree to disagree on the Tribulation timing. 

Sometimes the phrase "seeing is believing" applies  & sometimes  "believing is not seeing" as in this case. Sometimes what we believe informs what we can see. I came from a Denomination that did NOT believe in a Rapture at all. So when I did get saved & read the Bible I had no pre-conceived opinions about it. It was all new to me.  Imo as far as I can read from the scripture it states we the bride of Christ are not meant for the day of wrath-  the rapture will take place prior & we aren't going to be here.

Hey Davida,

Actually, I believed pre-trib and taught pre-trib for 20 years.  I felt inspired to write a book from an apologist’s perspective that would allow pre-trib to withstand any critic’s denial of it as a Biblical proof.  I spent nearly five years trying to figure out every counter argument against it and every proof to dismantle the arguments.  The more I looked at the original languages, how all prophecy verses related to others, the harder it was to prove.  I was devastated that my beliefs would not hold up in even a court of law.  I actually became somewhat depressed as a result.  I spent some of that time gathering rebuttals against it that I finally realized that I could no longer support it, not because the rebuttal file was strong, but the evidence was minimal.  After a few more years, that tiny amount of hope that pre-trib was true dissolved.  

Honestly, I’d prefer a pre-trib scenario, but that’s just not what God reveals.  And His wrath comes after the tribulation, not during it.  

As ive offered to others, please note 3-5 pre-trib “proof” verses and I will help you to at least understand where I’m at... not to destroy your beliefs, but to teach you why I have come to a different conclusion.

i appreciate your patience and Christian love.

[Daniel 11:36]

" Not everyone on the earth will suffer God’s wrath, He will protect us from it though."

 

Not so for all of the tribulation saints

 

Revelation

14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

 

Today's believers will all be made immortal just before the tribulation period [Revelation 3:10, 7:9-17]

Edited October 18, 2017 by Daniel 11:36

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, eileenhat said:

I am supposing you are talking about now, ie. this time period and where souls are harvested.

Souls are harvested here on earth.  They do not travel to heaven then the lake of fire, they go straight to the lake of fire, if found wanting.  This was the first judgement.

The souls of saints were placed under God's throne, then put back into bodies already here.

There is a final judgement in a thousand years.  The rest are judged then.

There are 4 soul events.

God protecting the souls of saints, then giving them life now.

The two witnessing souls being resurrected of Rev. 11.

The first judgement were those that lack oil and those against God are judged and souls thrown into the lake of fire.

The final soul judgement in 1,000 years.

 

How did those souls get to heaven to be placed under God’s throne?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

" Not everyone on the earth will suffer God’s wrath, He will protect us from it though."

 

Not so for all of the tribulation saints

 

Revelation

14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

 

Today's believers will all be made immortal just before the tribulation period [Revelation 3:10, 7:9-17]

Your response, “not so for the tribulation saints.”  Are you saying that saints in the tribulation will suffer God’s wrath?  Saints are not appointed to suffer His wrath, though they may witness it being carried out on others.  They will be persecuted by Satan’s beast and its followers, but not by God.

Your statement, “believers will all be made immortal just before the tribulation period.” That statement is a conclusion you’ve made based on what you believe... the verses you selected do not agree with that.

Regarding Revelation 3:10, most people interpret this as saying that God will “take us off the earth before the tribulation.”  Yet it does even come close to that.  You are able to prove this with a concordance.  The phrase “keep you from the hour of temptation” is mistranslated.  The word keep comes from the Greek word for “to be a spectator.” Here it means “watch over,” or “keep watch.” (Please look it up and see the original of this word) the word “from” I’m certainly not trying to blindly twist the true meaning.

The word “from” is the Greek word that honestly has a few meanings.  It can be translated as out, among, with or after.  John used it twice in Revelation.  The other instance is in 8:13.  Most translations will say either “because of,” or “by reason of.”  I trust that John Chose that word both times to be read with the same meaning.  Reread that sentence with accurate translation and it says He will watch over us because of the tribulation.

7:14 does not identify these multitudes other than as those who have come out of the tribulation... not before.  We do know that there will be saints in the tribulation who keep their testimony. “Out of” is that same Greek word that means among, because of, or after.

Daniel, please look all this up and pay no mind to my commentary.  My words mean nothing here, but you should research all this aside from this post and see what you find.  I’m not expecting you to change your beliefs, but I am hopeful that you’ll see the meanings of just these two verses.

thanks brother.

[missmuffet]

4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Does this resurrection also include the righteous who died during the millennium?

There may be another resurrection at the end of the Millennium, one which is implied, but never explicitly stated in Scripture. It is possible that some believers will die a physical death during the Millennium. Through the prophet Isaiah, God said, "No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his days; for the youth will die at the age of one hundred and the one who does not reach the age of one hundred will be thought accursed” (Isaiah 65:20). On the other hand, it is also possible that death in the Millennium will only come to the disobedient. In either event, some kind of transformation will be required to fit believers in their natural bodies in the Millennium for pristine existence throughout eternity. Each believer will need to have a “resurrected” type of body.

It is clear from Scripture that God will destroy the entire universe, including the earth, with fire (2 Peter 3:7-12). This will be necessary to purge God’s creation of its endemic evil and decay brought upon it by man’s sin. In its place God will create a new heaven and a new earth (2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1-4). But what will happen to those believers who survived the Tribulation and entered the Millennium in their natural bodies? And what will happen to those who were born during the Millennium, trusted in Jesus, and continued to live in their natural bodies? Paul has made it clear that flesh and blood, which is mortal and able to decay, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. That eternal kingdom is inhabitable only by those with resurrected, glorified bodies that are no longer mortal and are not able to decay (1 Corinthians 15:35-49). Presumably, these believers will be given resurrection bodies without having to die. Precisely when this happens is not explained, but theologically, it must happen somewhere in the transition from the old earth and universe to the new earth and new heaven (2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1-4).

There is a final resurrection, apparently of all the unbelieving dead of all ages. Jesus Christ will raise them from the dead (John 5:25-29) after the Millennium, the thousand-year reign of Christ (Revelation 20:5), and after the destruction of the present earth and universe (2 Peter 3:7-12; Revelation 20:11). This is the resurrection described by Daniel as an awakening “from the dust of the ground ... to disgrace and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2). It is described by Jesus as a “resurrection of judgment” (John 5:28-29).

The Apostle John saw something that would happen in the future. He saw a “great white throne” (Revelation 20:11). Heaven and earth “fled away” from the One sitting on it. This is evidently a description of the dissolution by fire of all matter, including the entire universe and earth itself (2 Peter 3:7-12). All the (godless) dead will stand before the throne. This means they have been resurrected after the thousand years (Revelation 20:5). They will possess bodies that can feel pain but will never cease to exist (Mark 9:43-48). They will be judged, and their punishment will be commensurate with their works. But there is another book opened—the Lamb’s book of life (Revelation 21:27). Those whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the “lake of fire,” which amounts to “the second death” (Revelation 20:11-15). No indication is given of any who appear at this judgment that their names are found in the book of life. Rather, those whose names appear in the book of life were among those who are blessed, for they received forgiveness and partook of the first resurrection, the resurrection to life (Revelation 20:6).

https://www.gotquestions.org/when-resurrection.html

[missmuffet]

4 hours ago, GusWilby said:

Where is pre-trib taught?  Please just list 3 - 5 verse references without commentary and I will give my honest and sincere response to each one.  If you need more, we can discuss those later, just the strongest proofs you can find.  Thanks in advance.

The seven year tribulation is not for the born again genuine believers in Jesus Christ. They will not experience God's wrath. Revelation 3:10

Question: "What is the rapture of the church?"

Answer: The word rapture does not occur in the Bible. The term comes from a Latin word meaning “a carrying off, a transport, or a snatching away.” The concept of the “carrying off” or the rapture of the church is clearly taught in Scripture.

The rapture of the church is the event in which God “snatches away” all believers from the earth in order to make way for His righteous judgment to be poured out on the earth during the tribulation period. The rapture is described primarily in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50–54. God will resurrect all believers who have died, give them glorified bodies, and take them from the earth, along with all living believers, who will also be given glorified bodies at that time. “For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17).

The rapture will involve an instantaneous transformation of our bodies to fit us for eternity. “We know that when he [Christ] appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2). The rapture is to be distinguished from the second coming. At the rapture, the Lord comes “in the clouds” to meet us “in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, the Lord descends all the way to the earth to stand on the Mount of Olives, resulting in a great earthquake followed by a defeat of God’s enemies (Zechariah 14:3–4).

The doctrine of the rapture was not taught in the Old Testament, which is why Paul calls it a “mystery” now revealed: “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:51–52).

The rapture of the church is a glorious event we should all be longing for. We will finally be free from sin. We will be in God’s presence forever. There is far too much debate over the meaning and scope of the rapture. This is not God’s intent. Rather, the rapture should be a comforting doctrine full of hope; God wants us to “encourage each other with these words” (1 Thessalonians 4:18).

https://www.gotquestions.org/rapture-of-the-church.html

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

The seven year tribulation is not for the born again genuine believers in Jesus Christ. They will not experience God's wrath. Revelation 3:10

Question: "What is the rapture of the church?"

Answer: The word rapture does not occur in the Bible. The term comes from a Latin word meaning “a carrying off, a transport, or a snatching away.” The concept of the “carrying off” or the rapture of the church is clearly taught in Scripture.

The rapture of the church is the event in which God “snatches away” all believers from the earth in order to make way for His righteous judgment to be poured out on the earth during the tribulation period. The rapture is described primarily in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50–54. God will resurrect all believers who have died, give them glorified bodies, and take them from the earth, along with all living believers, who will also be given glorified bodies at that time. “For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17).

The rapture will involve an instantaneous transformation of our bodies to fit us for eternity. “We know that when he [Christ] appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2). The rapture is to be distinguished from the second coming. At the rapture, the Lord comes “in the clouds” to meet us “in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, the Lord descends all the way to the earth to stand on the Mount of Olives, resulting in a great earthquake followed by a defeat of God’s enemies (Zechariah 14:3–4).

The doctrine of the rapture was not taught in the Old Testament, which is why Paul calls it a “mystery” now revealed: “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:51–52).

The rapture of the church is a glorious event we should all be longing for. We will finally be free from sin. We will be in God’s presence forever. There is far too much debate over the meaning and scope of the rapture. This is not God’s intent. Rather, the rapture should be a comforting doctrine full of hope; God wants us to “encourage each other with these words” (1 Thessalonians 4:18).

https://www.gotquestions.org/rapture-of-the-church.html

Rev 3:10 does not support pre-trib rapture. I’ve explained why twice in this post. Please read it and verify through your concordance or language translator, but don’t just ignore it.

Also, as I’ve stated, the tribulation is NOT God’s wrath. The trib is when Satan and its beasts control the earth. God’s wrath follows the trib... and yes, Paul specifically states this. 

the “mystery” that Paul wrote about was not the rapture, but the resurrection.  He was explains how our bodies would be changed.  That’s the mystery.  Yes, rapture will occur following that, but the raising of our corruptible bodies into incorruptible is all that mystery is about.  Read it.  Reread.  

I taught and preached pre-trib rapture for at least 20 years.  I know ALL the “proof” verses- I taught them to others!  I understand them.  I’ve translated the original languages and I know what it all means.  There will be a rapture, it’s just not for the purpose of taking us away from tribulation.  We will be persecuted by the world under control of demonic forces...... THEN Christ shall return and God’s wrath will be exacted on our enemies- we will be protected from His wrath, but witness its effects on the rest of the world.  After that, according to Rev 20, those believers killed during the trib will be rewarded with the first resurrection.... this FIRST resurrection does not happen, according to Rev 20, until after the tribulation. Read it. Reread it.

i am willing to be in this conversation as long as you’re willing to read my posts and not just assume I’m ignorant to the scripture.  

 

 

Edited October 19, 2017 by Guest
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[missmuffet]

4 minutes ago, GusWilby said:

Rev 3:10 does not support pre-trib rapture. I’ve explained why twice in this post. Please read it and verify through your concordance or language translator, but don’t just ignore it.

Also, as I’ve stated, the tribulation is NOT God’s wrath. The trib is when Satan and its beasts control the earth. God’s wrath follows the tribzzz and yes, Paul specifically states this. 

the “mystery” that Paul wrote about was not the rapture, but the resurrection.  He was explains how our bodies would be changed.  That’s the mystery.  Yes, rapture will occur following that, but the raising of our corruptible bodies into incorruptible is all that mystery is about.  Read it.  Reread.  

I taught and preached pre-trib rapture for at least 20 years.  I know ALL the “proof” verses- I taught them to others!  I understand them.  I’ve translated the original languages and I know what it all means.  There will be a rapture, it’s just not for the purpose of taking us away from tribulation.  We will be persecuted by the world under control of demonic forces...... THEN Christ shall return and God’s wrath will be exacted on our enemies- we will be protected from His wrath, but witness its effects on the rest of the world.  After that, according to Rev 20, those believers killed during the trib will be rewarded with the first resurrection.... this FIRST resurrection does not happen, according to Rev 20, until after the tribulation.

i am willing to be in this conversation as long as you’re willing to read my posts and not just assume I’m ignorant to the scripture.  

 

I reject your interpretation.

[Daniel 11:36]

I also reject GusWilby's interpretation