Jump to content
Josah

Is deception biblically defensible?

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Sojourner414 said:

 

Scripture here is pointing out that both Jesus' deeds were pure as well as His words; that is apparent from the context:

"For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls."  (1 Peter 2:21-25, NASB, emphasis mine)

"Leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,"; in other words, to do as He did. When Scripture tells us to follow the Lord and to do as He did, it does not  leave anything he would not have done as "a tool".  Since Jesus is God, God doesn't lie, and Scripture commands us to "be imitators of Him" (1 Thess 1:6, Eph 5:1, 1 Cor. 11:1) then we are not to deceive anyone.

God's final word on this is:

"And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. “He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” " (Revelation 21:5-8, NASB, emphasis mine)

 

Josah, you have no business telling anyone here that it is okay to deceive, lie or anything else that goes against the Word of God.
 

 

you are right

i am sorry

thank you for your warning

  • Thumbs Up 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Josah said:

you are right

i am sorry

thank you for your warning

You're welcome Josah. Sorry I was so stern, but there are new believers here and those who are young in the faith. I am not a moderator; just a believer who does not want anyone to think that deception is how we should conduct ourselves.

  • Thumbs Up 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

You're welcome Josah. Sorry I was so stern, but there are new believers here and those who are young in the faith. I am not a moderator; just a believer who does not want anyone to think that deception is how we should conduct ourselves.

i have taken great steps to end the deception

thankfully the experience was not too traumatic

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Josah said:

is it wrong to simultaneously: 

deceive that which hates you?

deceive for the maintenance of peace? 

deceive for the advancement of the Kingdom of God?

deceive to better yourself and many many others?  

OF COURSE NOT.

 

We began this conversation yesterday. I asked you to be specific. Brother Andrew not withstanding, what are you trying to prove to us and yourself here?

Yes, King David pretended idiocy in order to save his skin. There are a few instances like that in the scripture. However, you have not given us a specific yet as to why you think you are 'allowed' to deceive.

I have not beaten your idea to the ground (yet) and have given you ample time to come to the point. If there is one?

ADDED:

I see you have reconsidered your position because of Sojourner. Well done!

Wonderful!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like to see how this thread has revealed the subtly of the devil... he has spent 6000 years here trying to make sin a necessity in the mind or at best something of created purpose! However God has clearly declared it has no place with Him... and where do we desire to be? So to avoid sin and it's confusion we should resist it's use and pray for deliverance from... Love, Steven

  • Thumbs Up 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Josah said:

Why does the Bible use serpents in this example? 

The serpent in the garden of Eve was WISE.

How was the serpent in the garden of Eve WISE?

The serpent was WISE through its DECEPTION. 

The serpent did not lie, the serpent deceived, and deception always has a truth in it. 

Wouldn't you agree that to be able to deceive is to be wise?

In other words, wouldn't you say that only a wise thing could make someone think that a certain thing is true when it is not true, but at the same time, provide a truth, only, the truth that is uttered takes the form of another meaning for that other person? 

Deceiving someone is an action. Being wise is just being something, it's about how you choose to use it. The serpent used his wisdom to deceive, but that doesn't mean it was wise for him to deceive, or that deception is wisdom itself. You can use a gun to hunt for food to keep your family from dying, or you can use it to shoot and kill your family.

And he most certainly did lie, in Genesis 3:4 "But the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not surely die.'"

The wages if sin is death. Adam and Eve sinned, and indeed they died; physically and spiritually, and so have we all since then.

Yes, being able to deceive requires a level of wisdom, in a way at least. But if deception is a sin, it's not very wise to use what wisdom you have to deceive people and pile more sin on your heart. But follow your own train of logic; to commit a murder in which you aren't caught or implicated would take a great amount of wisdom, wouldn't it? So to be able to get away with murder is to be wise, yes? But does that make it okay to murder? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let us not forget that Rahab is in the "Faith Hall of Fame" and her claim to fame was deceiving to save the lives of the Jewish spies. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Running Gator said:

Let us not forget that Rahab is in the "Faith Hall of Fame" and her claim to fame was deceiving to save the lives of the Jewish spies. 

The Bible was not praising her act of deception.  The Bible never condones that act.   It uses her as an example of faith rooted in action, without condoning or praising the specific act.   She was no more affirmed for her deception than she was for being a harlot.  

  • Thumbs Up 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

another home run by the Shiloh .... Gator pay attention :) 

  • Thumbs Up 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Josah said:

I find it funny that it says "Who committed no sin" and then mentions "nor was deceit found in His mouth"

Why: because it is essentially implying that deceit is undesirable but it is not necessarily a sin.

in essence, it is saying that deceit is an undesirability set apart from sin...

It also creates some expectation that deceit is a feasible tool for navigating certain difficulties

it bothers to mention that deceit was not found in his mouth, further implying that sinlessness and the practice of deceit are entirely possible. 

anyways, it seems the form of deceit is what is most important... 

Jeremiah 9:8-9

"Their tongue is a deadly arrow; It speaks deceit; With his mouth one speaks peace to his neighbor, But inwardly he sets an ambush for him. "Shall I not punish them for these things?" declares the LORD. "On a nation such as this Shall I not avenge Myself?

Psalm 119:118

World English Bible
You reject all those who stray from your statutes, for their deceit is in vain.

118You have rejected all those who wander from Your statutes, For their deceitfulness is useless.

Further implying that there is a good form of deceit and that there is a bad form of deceit.  

10For, “Whoever would lovelife and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from deceitful speech.

this verse is interesting, but again, deceit can be a reflection of our circumstances, if deceit is being employed then that would mean you are not well poised in to "see good days" 

i must certainly am not well poised to "see good days" 

deceit is a necessary condition for the advancement of the Kingdom of God 

New Living Translation (NEW WORLD ORDER translation)
You will destroy those who tell lies. The LORD detests murderers and deceivers.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Thou shalt destroy those that speak lies: the LORD will abominate the bloody and deceitful man.

Darby Bible Translation
Thou wilt destroy them that speak lies: Jehovah abhorreth a man of blood and deceit.

American Standard Version
Thou wilt destroy them that speak lies: Jehovah abhorreth the blood-thirsty and deceitful man.

CLEARLY, this is saying that a man which is both BLOOD-THIRSTY and DECEITFUL is an abomination to the LORD. 

I could never see myself killing someone unjustly, nor have I ever killed someone unjustly, or justly, for that matter. 

The point is this: deceit on its own is not bad, as the NEW WORLD ORDER translation might have you think. 

AMEN. 

 

Oh come now. Lying--> Deceit/ deceiving is obviously a sin.  Who is the Father of lies?  Satan

     

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×